kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) No, I really don't know what you meant. You referred to the Spezza trade. I really have no idea what trades Holland or any other GM has offered to any team for any player. The Wings are getting players, the Wings just aren't getting EVERY player. Wings fans seem to "misremember" when it comes to the past. Most, if not all of the free agents the Wings have "missed out" on have signed with teams worse than the Wings with even less chance at winning the Cup. Who were all these elite free agents that we used to get that we aren't getting now? Personally, I don't think the future looks all the bleak. Cup favorites? Probably not next year or maybe the year after that, but they have some talented young players that I'm excited to see how they mature. The Wings, under Holland, have done a superb job of getting talented players with lower draft picks. Edit: I don't know why I typed all that. Since 2010, the first down year we had after the Cup runs, we lost Rafalski, Stuart, and Lidstrom. We acquired Ian White, Kyle Quincey, Carlo Colaiacovo, Mike Commodore, Mikhail Samuelsson, Jordin Tootoo, Daniel Alfredsson, and David Legwand. If you're content with that, fine. I'm not. I've seen the other moves made around the league, I've seen FA contracts, and trade packages too. We had the money and the assets. We didn't get the players. If this is the best we can do then A) Ken Holland's an idiot, B) Players don't want to come here, or C) both. You don't think so? Fine. But Holland himself used to say in Detroit "we expect to compete for the Cup every year". 40 year old Daniel Alfredsson and a bunch of bottom end players aren't going to get you there. Edited July 9, 2014 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Playmaker Report post Posted July 9, 2014 You forgot DeKeyser. Yeah, that guy that shunned Steve Yzerman and Tampa Bay and every other NHL team to sign with the Red Wings, why? Oh, because he's FROM there. But that seems irrelevant when it comes to other teams signing players. As I've said numerous times before, the Wings are NOT going to contend every year. If you expect any team to do that for decades at a time, you're dreaming. A small hand full of the few quality free agents that are available have signed with other teams, most of which are in worse shape than the Red Wings. Ken Holland has made very few blockbuster trades. I don't expect that to change. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 You forgot DeKeyser. Yeah, that guy that shunned Steve Yzerman and Tampa Bay and every other NHL team to sign with the Red Wings, why? Oh, because he's FROM there. But that seems irrelevant when it comes to other teams signing players. As I've said numerous times before, the Wings are NOT going to contend every year. If you expect any team to do that for decades at a time, you're dreaming. A small hand full of the few quality free agents that are available have signed with other teams, most of which are in worse shape than the Red Wings. Ken Holland has made very few blockbuster trades. I don't expect that to change. You're totally right. I had no idea that Niskanen, Boyle, Ehrhoff, Stralman, and every single other free agent all went "home" to play this year. No wonder we didn't get any. There just weren't any FAs from Michigan this year. Totally makes sense now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,961 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Hey Kip, Gleason is from Michigan and he decided on a 1 year contract in Carolina...guess even home isn't that important when it comes to Detroit! Edited July 10, 2014 by haroldsnepsts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Playmaker Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above. No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining. Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen. Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer. I don't know and you don't either. But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say? Ken Holland can't win with many fans. If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract. If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that. He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades. Gotcha. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Euro_Twins 4,476 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above. No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining. Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen. Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer. I don't know and you don't either. But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say? Ken Holland can't win with many fans. If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract. If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that. He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades. Gotcha. who wanted eaves anyway? he was lucky dallas gave him a contract, I know the wings weren't giving him one. he took the only offer he got... orpik said he called niskanen the night before and tried to convince him to come to washington, i guess it worked... I still want Holland gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above. No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining. Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen. Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer. I don't know and you don't either. But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say? Ken Holland can't win with many fans. If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract. If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that. He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades. Gotcha. Niskanen did say that Orpik had scouted the Washington area for him and relied on Orpik's information on whether it was a good fit or not. He also said that because his former coach was in Washington, he felt more comfortable signing with the Caps. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Again, clearly you're happy with White, Colaiacovo, Quincey, Sammy, Tootoo, Alfie, and Weiss, and you obviously think that's absolutely the best possible acquisitions that Holland could have made. I don't buy it. But I'm not going to argue with you about it. You win. Holland could not have possible done any better. Kudos Ken Holland. Despite your best efforts, fate has been against you for the last half decade and that's why we went from a Stanley Cup contender to barely making the playoffs. Nothing at all to do with your personnel decisions, which are the best they could be under the circumstances, and happen in a vacuum anyway. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Ken Holland can't win with many fans. If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract. If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that. He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades. Gotcha. Reread the Niskanen thread and look at the numbers again, most people would have been fine with 6 x 7 and he even signed under that. So sorry for expecting more than kicking the tires since 5 years, like it or not the Redwings are falling more and more as a destination for UFAs so that means => pull up your sleeves and turn the favour around for our front-office. Also after not getting Niskanen or Ehrhoff most here wanted Kenny to do nothing and then he re-signs Quincey at 4,25 per.. Listen to TSN and the Jason Spezza presentation, he is talking about why he chose the Stars - which are by all means - not at the same level as the Kings, Blues or Blackhawks. Long story short, if UFAs don't believe in an organisation - even if it's an original 6 one with two decades of success - they won't come, sign it's that simple and we saw live on july 1. Edited July 10, 2014 by frankgrimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Reread the Niskanen thread and look at the numbers again, most people would have been fine with 6 x 7 and he even signed under that. So sorry for expecting more than kicking the tires since 5 years, like it or not the Redwings are falling more and more as a destination for UFAs so that means => pull up your sleeves and turn the favour around for our front-office. Also after not getting Niskanen or Ehrhoff most here wanted Kenny to do nothing and then he re-signs Quincey at 4,25 per.. Listen to TSN and the Jason Spezza presentation, he is talking about why he chose the Stars - which are by all means - not at the same level as the Kings, Blues or Blackhawks. Long story short, if UFAs don't believe in an organisation - even if it's an original 6 one with two decades of success - they won't come, sign it's that simple and we saw live on july 1. I feel bad saying this, but I don't just don't the gameplan is getting a cup next year. They're going to do retool till holland retires Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nawein 324 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 I feel bad saying this, but I don't just don't the gameplan is getting a cup next year. They're going to do retool till holland retires You can't honestly believe that. 11-12 Roster. Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen Holmstrom - Gone Bertuzzi - Gone Cleary - Gone/could be in GR Filppula - Gone Hudler - Gone Helm Miller Abdelkader Emmerton - Gone Mursak - Gone Lidstrom - Gone Kronwall White - Gone Stuart - Gone Kindl Ericsson These are guys that played 20 or more games for us. 9 guys still on the starting roster that we're here 3 years ago. Average age of guys that are gone = 33.5 Current probable starting roster (Assuming we sign no more guys) Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen Weiss - New Nyquist - New Jurco - New Tatar - New Sheahan - New Glendening - New Andersson - New Miller Abdelkader Helm Kronwall Ericsson Dekeyser - New Quincey - New Kindl Lashoff - New Smith - New Average age of guys that replaced to old guys = 24.6. A little under 9 years younger than the guys that left and gets younger if we move Kindl and bring up Ouellet or Marchenko. We're not retooling. We're rebuilding and transferring to a younger core without selling our current core so we're still competitive. Rebuilds don't happen overnight and they're not always 100 successful anyways. Why can't people see that we're an extremely successful team for one that's rebuilding. Would a couple high picks help? Of course. Would trading stars for picks help? Of course. But what other team has rebuilt while remaining competitive? Not many. We're doing it. Be thankful we're not the Oilers. 3 krsmith17, derblaueClaus and wings4thecup06 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Kip, I don't think anyone is saying that there was absolutely nothing Kenny could have done since losing Rafalski, Lidstrom and co. or that we agree with every single personnel decision that he has made in the past few seasons. Obviously there have been plenty to scratch your head about. But there have also been plenty of players that have signed elsewhere that we really didn't have any chance with, without giving up way too much in assets or salary cap. If a player has his mind set where he wants to go, like DeKeyser for us, there isn't much else you can do other than crazily over pay, and even that isn't going to guarantee they come here... You can't argue that some pretty good players have been going to other teams for reasons other than having a better chance at competing for the Stanley Cup as of late. Do you really think any of the players that signed elsewhere, other than maybe Ehrhoff, Richards and Heatley (there were a lot of people that didn't even want these players anyway) believe that any of these teams they signed with have a significantly better chance at competing than the Red Wings? Does anyone believe that Washington, Tampa, New York, Dallas, Colorado, Minnesota or Nashville, were significantly better than us, prior to the signings? Or even after their big signings for that matter?... I certainly don't. I think Holland is doing a great job managing this team, and keeping them afloat while building on the fly. To go through two successful rebuilds in both pre and post salary cap, without missing the playoffs once in over two decades would be pretty damn amazing wouldn't it? Sure, I would have loved to have a shiny, new piece to the puzzle on July 1st, who wouldn't? But I'm quite content waiting another year and see what these kids can do. 2 derblaueClaus and wings4thecup06 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 You can't honestly believe that. 11-12 Roster. Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen Holmstrom - Gone Bertuzzi - Gone Cleary - Gone/could be in GR Filppula - Gone Hudler - Gone Helm Miller Abdelkader Emmerton - Gone Mursak - Gone Lidstrom - Gone Kronwall White - Gone Stuart - Gone Kindl Ericsson These are guys that played 20 or more games for us. 9 guys still on the starting roster that we're here 3 years ago. Average age of guys that are gone = 33.5 Current probable starting roster (Assuming we sign no more guys) Zetterberg Datsyuk Franzen Weiss - New Nyquist - New Jurco - New Tatar - New Sheahan - New Glendening - New Andersson - New Miller Abdelkader Helm Kronwall Ericsson Dekeyser - New Quincey - New Kindl Lashoff - New Smith - New Average age of guys that replaced to old guys = 24.6. A little under 9 years younger than the guys that left and gets younger if we move Kindl and bring up Ouellet or Marchenko. We're not retooling. We're rebuilding and transferring to a younger core without selling our current core so we're still competitive. Rebuilds don't happen overnight and they're not always 100 successful anyways. Why can't people see that we're an extremely successful team for one that's rebuilding. Would a couple high picks help? Of course. Would trading stars for picks help? Of course. But what other team has rebuilt while remaining competitive? Not many. We're doing it. Be thankful we're not the Oilers. To Edmonton: Dats, Z To Detroit: Yakupov, Baertschi Git er did Kenneth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted July 10, 2014 Damn it! Baertschi is in Calgary not Edmonton, otherwise that deal would have been all but done... 1 number9 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted July 11, 2014 Damn it! Baertschi is in Calgary not Edmonton, otherwise that deal would have been all but done... Oh yeah, just nitpick my wholeeeeeee argument. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
