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#41 Playmaker

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:15 PM

Or....maybe a guy just wants to hang out with an old buddy.

 

http://sports.yahoo....-205803795.html



#42 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 06:31 PM

Or....maybe a guy just wants to hang out with an old buddy.

 

http://sports.yahoo....-205803795.html

 

And it just so happened that his buddy happened to play for a team good enough to make it to the Stanley Cup Finals.  For some reason I have a hard time believing he'd have been so friendly if St. Louis played for the Oilers lol. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#43 Playmaker

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:50 PM

So why did Suter and Parise go to Minnesota?  Because they are so competitive?  Did Niskanen go to Washington because they are Cup finalists?  Moulson went to Buffalo because they're making so many good moves? Seems not to matter how much evidence to the contrary, there's going to continue to be the "Detroit's not a destination because of...." conspiracy theory.


Oh, and Patrick Eaves?  LOL  He "chose" to go to the Stars?   They scooped him up off the scrap heap after being let loose twice in the past year and is being paid like 500k on a one year deal.  Give me a break



#44 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 07:59 PM

So why did Suter and Parise go to Minnesota?  Because they are so competitive?  Did Niskanen go to Washington because they are Cup finalists?  Moulson went to Buffalo because they're making so many good moves? Seems not to matter how much evidence to the contrary, there's going to continue to be the "Detroit's not a destination because of...." conspiracy theory.


Oh, and Patrick Eaves?  LOL  He "chose" to go to the Stars?   They scooped him up off the scrap heap after being let loose twice in the past year and is being paid like 500k on a one year deal.  Give me a break

 

Wait, I'm confused.  Is you point that there was absolutely, 100%, nothing that Ken Holland could have done to improve this team other than sign Kyle Quincey? Because if not then it's a moot point. 

 

The fact that guys would rather sign to play with their buddies,or sign for less money, or sign with non-playoff teams, than sign with your team and get paid to win is a problem.  It says that either A) you're not winning, B) you're not paying, or both. 


Edited by kipwinger, 08 July 2014 - 08:03 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#45 Playmaker

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:36 AM

 

Wait, I'm confused.  Is you point that there was absolutely, 100%, nothing that Ken Holland could have done to improve this team other than sign Kyle Quincey? Because if not then it's a moot point. 

 

The fact that guys would rather sign to play with their buddies,or sign for less money, or sign with non-playoff teams, than sign with your team and get paid to win is a problem.  It says that either A) you're not winning, B) you're not paying, or both. 

There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so.  I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did.  But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter.  If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone?  Half the fan base would have ripped him for it.  Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass.    If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all?  Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful.  It's a balancing act.  I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.    

 

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs.  Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season)  Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat.  We'll see in the years to come.  



#46 frankgrimes

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:51 AM

There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so.  I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did.  But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter.  If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone?  Half the fan base would have ripped him for it.  Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass.    If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all?  Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful.  It's a balancing act.  I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.    

 

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs.  Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season)  Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat.  We'll see in the years to come.  

 

 Sorry but I have to correct you on that:

 

In his first-GM season Yzerman and the Tampa Bay Lightning reached the Eastern Conferecne Finals, only being stopped but a juggernaut named Boston.

 

In 4 years Yzerman has built up their AHL franchise, created competition for spots at the pro level what more could he have done ? Win the cup? Sure but it's not like Tampa is that good right now.

 

I know that Holland has done a lot of great things for this organisation but at some point every GM becomes to emotionally attached to his players (good examples are Tallon, Burke) plus he has also become unwilling to take risks. If someone offers you Volchenkov at 1 mill and then Quincey at 4,25 per ? The decision is easy and I don#t need GM experience to make such an easy decision.  When it comes down to the point where top UFAs are taking less (term and lengthwise) to sign elsewhere, all alarm bells should start to ring 24/7, because it's basically telling an organization two  things:

 

1. you are not good enough to win the cup

2. your future is bleak at best

 

At that point a GM should do everything in his power to guide the ship in the right direction, talk to agents about the perception and how to correct it. Desperate moves aren't going to cut it.

 

as for Detroit not being a destination anymore:

Well they didn't make Ehrhoffs final list nor Niskanen's so that should be telling.


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#47 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:54 AM

There were things he could have done and it seems like he made a reasonable effort to do so.  I wanted Niskanen as much as everyone else did.  But it isn't like he's Ryan Suter.  If Holland had given him a 7 year deal at 6 million per season, would that sparkle with everyone?  Half the fan base would have ripped him for it.  Unfortunately, as teams like Philly are finding out, you have to think of today, but keep an eye on the future as well and it seems like more often than not, these long term free agent deals come back to bite you in the ass.    If we had signed Niskanen and the three young D prospects all turn out to be good, how are you going to pay them all?  Not to mention DeKeyser and all the young forwards who will be due for a big pay day if they are successful.  It's a balancing act.  I'm not in love with every move Ken Holland makes, but I also don't think there's some league wide mandate to avoid the Wings either or that they're so awful and the future is so bleak that free agents are signing else where.    

 

While everyone is lauding Steve Yzerman for his GM abilities, he still hasn't gotten his team past the first round of the playoffs.  Jim Nill either (though he's only had one season)  Making moves isn't necessarily better than standing pat.  We'll see in the years to come.  

 

It sounds like the gist of your first paragraph is that "he tried, and they didn't come, so there's nothing that could have been done".  In which case, we should blame fate, and nothing else since player acquisition is clearly this much of a crap shoot. 

 

It sounds like the gist of your second paragraph is "other teams lose in the first round too, so we should wait and see if we get better next year".  Which entirely ignores the fact that Tampa breezed into the playoffs and made moves to get better, and Dallas breezed into the playoffs (in a harder conference) and made moves to get better, while Detroit stumbled into the playoffs (two years in a row) and did nothing to get better.

 

I'd be fine with the "sometimes making moves isn't better than standing pat" argument if we already had a really good team, and internal growth might put us over the top without costing assets.  But we're not a really good team.  We're a team who (narrowly) outpaced teams like Washington and Toronto for a playoff spot the last two years.  What level is internal growth going to bring us up to?  Columbus level good? 

 

But you can't make em come to Detroit eh?

 

Dallas just got Jason Spezza for Alex Chaisson, a prospect, and a pic.  We can offer better packages than that.  So, A) we don't offer, B) if we offered, they'd come, C) we do offer, they wouldn't come (in which case there IS some reason to believe guys are actively avoiding Detroit). 


Edited by kipwinger, 09 July 2014 - 09:57 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#48 Playmaker

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:31 PM

 

 Sorry but I have to correct you on that:

 

In his first-GM season Yzerman and the Tampa Bay Lightning reached the Eastern Conferecne Finals, only being stopped but a juggernaut named Boston.

 

In 4 years Yzerman has built up their AHL franchise, created competition for spots at the pro level what more could he have done ? Win the cup? Sure but it's not like Tampa is that good right now.

 

I know that Holland has done a lot of great things for this organisation but at some point every GM becomes to emotionally attached to his players (good examples are Tallon, Burke) plus he has also become unwilling to take risks. If someone offers you Volchenkov at 1 mill and then Quincey at 4,25 per ? The decision is easy and I don#t need GM experience to make such an easy decision.  When it comes down to the point where top UFAs are taking less (term and lengthwise) to sign elsewhere, all alarm bells should start to ring 24/7, because it's basically telling an organization two  things:

 

1. you are not good enough to win the cup

2. your future is bleak at best

 

At that point a GM should do everything in his power to guide the ship in the right direction, talk to agents about the perception and how to correct it. Desperate moves aren't going to cut it.

 

as for Detroit not being a destination anymore:

Well they didn't make Ehrhoffs final list nor Niskanen's so that should be telling.

Or:  

1.  They wanted to be near friends and family

2.  They wanted to be with a last place team like Washington that's in the middle of a major rebuild

3.  They love the Minnesota weather

 

Weiss, Alfredsson and DeKeyser were top sought after free agents who DID sign here.  

 

 

 

It sounds like the gist of your first paragraph is that "he tried, and they didn't come, so there's nothing that could have been done".  In which case, we should blame fate, and nothing else since player acquisition is clearly this much of a crap shoot. 

 

It sounds like the gist of your second paragraph is "other teams lose in the first round too, so we should wait and see if we get better next year".  Which entirely ignores the fact that Tampa breezed into the playoffs and made moves to get better, and Dallas breezed into the playoffs (in a harder conference) and made moves to get better, while Detroit stumbled into the playoffs (two years in a row) and did nothing to get better.

 

I'd be fine with the "sometimes making moves isn't better than standing pat" argument if we already had a really good team, and internal growth might put us over the top without costing assets.  But we're not a really good team.  We're a team who (narrowly) outpaced teams like Washington and Toronto for a playoff spot the last two years.  What level is internal growth going to bring us up to?  Columbus level good? 

 

But you can't make em come to Detroit eh?

 

Dallas just got Jason Spezza for Alex Chaisson, a prospect, and a pic.  We can offer better packages than that.  So, A) we don't offer, B) if we offered, they'd come, C) we do offer, they wouldn't come (in which case there IS some reason to believe guys are actively avoiding Detroit). 

Or

A) Ottawa wouldn't trade within the division

B) Holland wasn't parting with assets for a position that wasn't a need

C) Didn't want to add a 7 million dollar a year rental when there are other needs the team has.

 

Or maybe Holland just sucks and the Wings should have had won the Cup for 15 years straight.  



#49 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:43 PM

Or:  

1.  They wanted to be near friends and family

2.  They wanted to be with a last place team like Washington that's in the middle of a major rebuild

3.  They love the Minnesota weather

 

Weiss, Alfredsson and DeKeyser were top sought after free agents who DID sign here.  

 

 

Or

A) Ottawa wouldn't trade within the division

B) Holland wasn't parting with assets for a position that wasn't a need

C) Didn't want to add a 7 million dollar a year rental when there are other needs the team has.

 

Or maybe Holland just sucks and the Wings should have had won the Cup for 15 years straight.  

 

It's an example of the types of packages Holland either doesn't offer, or does and gets rejected.  I know he didn't offer on Spezza, and you know what I meant. 

 

You make it seem like Hollands trying his best, and not getting any results, but then ALSO say that people aren't actively avoiding the Wings.  So since we're not getting players, I don't see how both can be true. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#50 Playmaker

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:09 PM

 

It's an example of the types of packages Holland either doesn't offer, or does and gets rejected.  I know he didn't offer on Spezza, and you know what I meant. 

 

You make it seem like Hollands trying his best, and not getting any results, but then ALSO say that people aren't actively avoiding the Wings.  So since we're not getting players, I don't see how both can be true. 

No, I really don't know what you meant.  You referred to the Spezza trade.  I really have no idea what trades Holland or any other GM has offered to any team for any player. 

 

The Wings are getting players, the Wings just aren't getting EVERY player.  Wings fans seem to "misremember" when it comes to the past.  Most, if not all of the free agents the Wings have "missed out" on have signed with teams worse than the Wings with even less chance at winning the Cup.  Who were all these elite free agents that we used to get that we aren't getting now?  

 

Personally, I don't think the future looks all the bleak.  Cup favorites?  Probably not next year or maybe the year after that, but they have some talented young players that I'm excited to see how they mature.  The Wings, under Holland, have done a superb job of getting talented players with lower draft picks.



#51 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

No, I really don't know what you meant.  You referred to the Spezza trade.  I really have no idea what trades Holland or any other GM has offered to any team for any player. 

 

The Wings are getting players, the Wings just aren't getting EVERY player.  Wings fans seem to "misremember" when it comes to the past.  Most, if not all of the free agents the Wings have "missed out" on have signed with teams worse than the Wings with even less chance at winning the Cup.  Who were all these elite free agents that we used to get that we aren't getting now?  

 

Personally, I don't think the future looks all the bleak.  Cup favorites?  Probably not next year or maybe the year after that, but they have some talented young players that I'm excited to see how they mature.  The Wings, under Holland, have done a superb job of getting talented players with lower draft picks.

 

 

Edit:  I don't know why I typed all that. 

 

Since 2010, the first down year we had after the Cup runs, we lost Rafalski, Stuart, and Lidstrom.  We acquired Ian White, Kyle Quincey, Carlo Colaiacovo, Mike Commodore, Mikhail Samuelsson, Jordin Tootoo, Daniel Alfredsson, and David Legwand. 

 

If you're content with that, fine.  I'm not.  I've seen the other moves made around the league, I've seen FA contracts, and trade packages too.  We had the money and the assets.  We didn't get the players. 

 

If this is the best we can do then A) Ken Holland's an idiot, B) Players don't want to come here, or C) both. 

 

You don't think so?  Fine.  But Holland himself used to say in Detroit "we expect to compete for the Cup every year".  40 year old Daniel Alfredsson and a bunch of bottom end players aren't going to get you there.


Edited by kipwinger, 09 July 2014 - 02:49 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#52 Playmaker

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 05:24 PM

You forgot DeKeyser.  Yeah, that guy that shunned Steve Yzerman and Tampa Bay and every other NHL team to sign with the Red Wings, why?  Oh, because he's FROM there.  But that seems irrelevant when it comes to other teams signing players.  

 

As I've said numerous times before, the Wings are NOT going to contend every year.  If you expect any team to do that for decades at a time, you're dreaming.  A small hand full of the few quality free agents that are available have signed with other teams, most of which are in worse shape than the Red Wings. Ken Holland has made very few blockbuster trades.  I don't expect that to change.



#53 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 07:26 PM

You forgot DeKeyser.  Yeah, that guy that shunned Steve Yzerman and Tampa Bay and every other NHL team to sign with the Red Wings, why?  Oh, because he's FROM there.  But that seems irrelevant when it comes to other teams signing players.  

 

As I've said numerous times before, the Wings are NOT going to contend every year.  If you expect any team to do that for decades at a time, you're dreaming.  A small hand full of the few quality free agents that are available have signed with other teams, most of which are in worse shape than the Red Wings. Ken Holland has made very few blockbuster trades.  I don't expect that to change.

 

You're totally right.  I had no idea that Niskanen, Boyle, Ehrhoff, Stralman, and every single other free agent all went "home" to play this year.  No wonder we didn't get any.  There just weren't any FAs from Michigan this year.  Totally makes sense now. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#54 LeftWinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:12 PM

Hey Kip, Gleason is from Michigan and he decided on a 1 year contract in Carolina...guess even home isn't that important when it comes to Detroit!


Edited by haroldsnepsts, 09 July 2014 - 08:17 PM.

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#55 Playmaker

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:25 PM

Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? 

 

Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above.  No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining.  Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen.  Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer.  I don't know and you don't either.  But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. 

 

I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say?

 

Ken Holland can't win with many fans.  If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract.  If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that.  He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades.  Gotcha. 



#56 Euro_Twins

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:31 PM

Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? 

 

Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above.  No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining.  Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen.  Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer.  I don't know and you don't either.  But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. 

 

I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say?

 

Ken Holland can't win with many fans.  If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract.  If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that.  He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades.  Gotcha. 

 

who wanted eaves anyway? he was lucky dallas gave him a contract, I know the wings weren't giving him one. he took the only offer he got... orpik said he called niskanen the night before and tried to convince him to come to washington, i guess it worked...

 

I still want Holland gone



#57 Echolalia

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 08:50 PM

Right, and they ALL went to contending teams with a chance to win the Cup this year, right? 
 
Boyle said why he signed in New York as was referenced in the link above.  No big loss not getting a 38 year old already declining.  Parise and Suter made it clear why Minnesota was their choice. The Wings, with good reason, didn't pursue Stralman. Can't really say about Niskanen.  Could be that Orpik signed there, could have been a better financial offer.  I don't know and you don't either.  But the facts are, players don't sign only with up and coming contending teams. 
 
I mean when fans start pointing to Patrick Eaves signing with Dallas as proof that we're missing out on all the great Free Agents and that he signed there because they are an exciting up and coming team, what else can you really say?
 
Ken Holland can't win with many fans.  If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract.  If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that.  He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades.  Gotcha. 

Niskanen did say that Orpik had scouted the Washington area for him and relied on Orpik's information on whether it was a good fit or not. He also said that because his former coach was in Washington, he felt more comfortable signing with the Caps.

#58 kipwinger

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 09:00 PM

Again, clearly you're happy with White, Colaiacovo, Quincey, Sammy, Tootoo, Alfie, and Weiss, and you obviously think that's absolutely the best possible acquisitions that Holland could have made. 

 

I don't buy it.  But I'm not going to argue with you about it.  You win.  Holland could not have possible done any better.  Kudos Ken Holland.  Despite your best efforts, fate has been against you for the last half decade and that's why we went from a Stanley Cup contender to barely making the playoffs.  Nothing at all to do with your personnel decisions, which are the best they could be under the circumstances, and happen in a vacuum anyway. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#59 frankgrimes

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:07 AM


Ken Holland can't win with many fans.  If he had overpaid Niskanen, fans would have complained about that when he (likely) would not have lived up to the contract.  If he trades away a young player for a veteran, he gets s*** for that.  He's supposed to stay under the cap, keep all the young players, sign all the free agents, and keep the team a yearly contender for two decades.  Gotcha. 

 

Reread the Niskanen thread and look at the numbers again, most people would have been fine with 6 x 7 and he even signed under that. So sorry for expecting more than kicking the tires since 5 years, like it or not the Redwings are falling more and more as a destination for UFAs so that means => pull up your sleeves and turn the favour around for our front-office. Also after not getting Niskanen or Ehrhoff most here wanted Kenny to do nothing and then he re-signs Quincey at 4,25 per..

 

Listen to TSN and the Jason Spezza presentation, he is talking about why he chose the Stars - which are by all means - not at the same level as the Kings, Blues or Blackhawks. Long story short, if UFAs don't believe in an organisation - even if it's an original 6 one with two decades of success - they won't come, sign it's that simple and we saw live on july 1.


Edited by frankgrimes, 10 July 2014 - 01:09 AM.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#60 number9

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:20 AM

 
Reread the Niskanen thread and look at the numbers again, most people would have been fine with 6 x 7 and he even signed under that. So sorry for expecting more than kicking the tires since 5 years, like it or not the Redwings are falling more and more as a destination for UFAs so that means => pull up your sleeves and turn the favour around for our front-office. Also after not getting Niskanen or Ehrhoff most here wanted Kenny to do nothing and then he re-signs Quincey at 4,25 per..
 
Listen to TSN and the Jason Spezza presentation, he is talking about why he chose the Stars - which are by all means - not at the same level as the Kings, Blues or Blackhawks. Long story short, if UFAs don't believe in an organisation - even if it's an original 6 one with two decades of success - they won't come, sign it's that simple and we saw live on july 1.


I feel bad saying this, but I don't just don't the gameplan is getting a cup next year. They're going to do retool till holland retires





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