Hockey News: Red Wings ‘D’ hunting

[VM1138 1,921]

In reality this is hardly a tough decision ask yourself this:

Would you trade Tatar, a first and a cap dump for a young Chara, Pronger ? Personally I would but everbody is different.

Of course most people would, but that's knowing how Chara and Pronger turned out. Just because they defied the odds doesn't mean Myers will.

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[kipwinger 8,492]

In reality this is hardly a tough decision ask yourself this:

Would you trade Tatar, a first and a cap dump for a young Chara, Pronger ? Personally I would but everbody is different.

Chara and Pronger could both play defense. Myers is HORRIBLE defensively. He's also not even close to as physical as those guys. God knows how much you like physicality and defensive responsibility. You're mesmerized by his size and think that means we'll be tougher. We won't. He's not a tough guy. He's tall and skinny. And worse, he's got terrible lateral skating. Dudes blow by him.

I'd gladly trade Tatar for young Pronger. Younger Pronger was big, strong, tough, defensively responsible, imposing, and chipped some offense. Myers chips in offense...and that is all. They are nothing alike.

I'd also trade Tatar for Yandle...or Edler...or Bogosian or anybody who's an established player. But I'm not willing to move him for a project...no matter how tall he is.

[number9 3,297]

In reality this is hardly a tough decision ask yourself this:

Would you trade Tatar, a first and a cap dump for a young Chara, Pronger ? Personally I would but everbody is different.

I can play this game too. Would you trade a young Kessel, a first and a cap dump for Tyler Myers? Personally I wouldn't, but everybody is different.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right? He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team. How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman. Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget. A project. Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out.

I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant".

Trade for someone better, or don't trade. I prefer the latter actually. No more shortcuts. That's what got us into this mess.

More points does not mean better. Datsyuk was quite a bit ahead of him in other areas.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree Kip, it is definitely unfair to put Smith and Tatar in the same boat, they play completely different positions... You can't compare entering the NHL as a defenseman to a winger, it is MUCH harder to adapt to the best league in the world as a defender then it is as a winger, everybody knows that... don't they?

I think Smith is going to be a much better player in this league, and definitely a lot more valuable to his team in just a year or two from now. I like Tatar and I wouldn't give him away but I do think he is the most expendable on our team and would be a great starting point to any package deal. I just found it funny that you were upset that everyone was placing Tatar in all these trade scenarios, when you place Smith (the guy with the higher ceiling ) in all the same type trade scenarios...

[kipwinger 8,492]

More points does not mean better. Datsyuk was quite a bit ahead of him in other areas.

Agreed. But that doesn't take away from the fact that Tatar just did something REALLY impressive. To move him now for a project defenseman would be silly.

As I said, I'd move him as part of a package for an established player. But not for a guy who's got as many holes in his game as Myers does.

I agree Kip, it is definitely unfair to put Smith and Tatar in the same boat, they play completely different positions... You can't compare entering the NHL as a defenseman to a winger, it is MUCH harder to adapt to the best league in the world as a defender then it is as a winger, everybody knows that... don't they?

I think Smith is going to be a much better player in this league, and definitely a lot more valuable to his team in just a year or two from now. I like Tatar and I wouldn't give him away but I do think he is the most expendable on our team and would be a great starting point to any package deal. I just found it funny that you were upset that everyone was placing Tatar in all these trade scenarios, when you place Smith (the guy with the higher ceiling ) in all the same type trade scenarios...

Smith doesn't have a higher ceiling. I'm not sure where you got that. Tatar is a Calder Cup MVP and Olympian, who just had a fantastic rookie year. Smith has done nothing of note since not winning the Hobie Baker award in college.

Why is his ceiling higher again?

Edited July 7, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

Again you're comparing things that are really incomparable, in my opinion... You're saying that Tatar won the Calder Cup MVP, he certainly did, but do you know how difficult it is for a defenseman to win that award? David Fenyves was the last defenseman to win the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy way back in 1987. Then you said that he was an Olympian, for which team again? Slovakia? Of course Smith wasn't going to make the team Canada roster, but do you really think it would have been out of the realm of possibility that he would had made the Slovakian roster?...

Smith being better than Tatar or vice versa is a matter of opinion because they play completely different positions and is definitely an opinion, especially when talking about a players ceilings...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Tatar is an undersized winger who is still below average defensively and projects as a second line wing. Detroit has Jurco Nyquist and Mantha in the NHL or coming soon. Tatar is expendable

[kipwinger 8,492]

Again you're comparing things that are really incomparable, in my opinion... You're saying that Tatar won the Calder Cup MVP, he certainly did, but do you know how difficult it is for a defenseman to win that award? David Fenyves was the last defenseman to win the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy way back in 1987. Then you said that he was an Olympian, for which team again? Slovakia? Of course Smith wasn't going to make the team Canada roster, but do you really think it would have been out of the realm of possibility that he would had made the Slovakian roster?...

Smith being better than Tatar or vice versa is a matter of opinion because they play completely different positions and is definitely an opinion, especially when talking about a players ceilings...

It's not a matter of opinion. Smith has not done anything of note in his professional career.

And you can't use their respective positions as a way of shirking that fact. That's like saying Datsyuk and Kronwall can't be compared because they don't play the same position. Datsyuk is better at his position than Kronwall is at his. Likewise, Tatar is better at his position than Smith is at his.

Maybe that will change in the future. But as of right now, it's entirely true. And the lengths that you're going to make it seem like Smith is just a victim of fate reeks of desperation. I get that you like guy, feel free. But stop making it seem like he's been good. He hasn't. If you were trying to make a case for Dekeyser, I'd say you have an argument. He's been as good as advertised. But Smith hasn't. It's really that simple.

Tatar is an undersized winger who is still below average defensively and projects as a second line wing. Detroit has Jurco Nyquist and Mantha in the NHL or coming soon. Tatar is expendable

I agree. For a quality player. Not for a project. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get this point across.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Tatar or Jurco..man which one could you live without? Either way, the main cog in any trade should be Helm. Let's just say they traded Tatar.... Helm, Tatar, 1st rounder and maybe Almqvist's rights would bring in pretty good defenseman...for most teams. But since teams are encouraged to, and allowed to by Buttman and his cronies, to rape Detroit, that wouldn't be enough for the rights to Mike Commodore.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Tatar or Jurco..man which one could you live without? Either way, the main cog in any trade should be Helm. Let's just say they traded Tatar.... Helm, Tatar, 1st rounder and maybe Almqvist's rights would bring in pretty good defenseman...for most teams. But since teams are encouraged to, and allowed to by Buttman and his cronies, to rape Detroit, that wouldn't be enough for the rights to Mike Commodore.

Nobody is saying that Tatar can never be traded or that we can't live without him. I'm saying if you're going to trade a player who has been as good as Tatar, you should try to get a return greater than a guy who just scored fewer points than Danny Dekeyser, with more ice time, while playing a tenth the defense.

Can everyone at least recognize that nobody is saying Tatar is untouchable?

I'm saying that Tatar is really valuable as a secondary scorer on a team that lacks offense. As such, I would need a much bigger return on him than Tyler Myers, a guy who has been consistently underwhelming for most of his career. We need Tatar's offense more than we need a project defenseman. Is that clear?

If you're going to trade Tatar (which I'm theoretically ok with) please do it for someone who's value to the team is tangible and not predicated on a bunch of "ifs".

Edited July 7, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

LOL, Kip IT IS absolutely an OPINION. You have yours and I have mine. Explain to me how it is fact that Tatar is a better player than Smith. You can't because it is an OPINION. You laid out Tatar's accomplishments and I simply explained to you why it was so difficult for Smith to have those same accomplishments due to circumstance... I'm not going through any lengths to prove my point, just explaining why it would have been near impossible for Smith to accomplish the same things as Tatar in their short careers.

It is nothing like comparing Datsyuk to Kronwall, because we're talking about ceilings and we have seen both these players ceilings, unlike Smith and Tatar.

My OPINION is that currently Smith is better at his position than Tatar, that Smith has a higher ceiling than Tatar, and that Smith brings more of what we need on this team than Tatar...

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Kip, I wasn't saying anything, I was just asking which one could be lived without. They both have potential to be 20-30 goal getters. I most definitely trade one of those two before I trade Mantha or Sheahan. I think Tatar would be the more sought after one by teams and he should garner a larger return. I also agree that my trade piece scenario is way over payment for Myers. I think Myers could be had for Helm and a 1st and throw Kindl in there just to make room on the roster. If one of them had to be traded, Jurco or Tatar...I just don't know which one I would be comfortable in letting go...guess it all depends on the return.

[kipwinger 8,492]

My OPINION is that currently Smith is better at his position than Tatar, that Smith has a higher ceiling than Tatar, and that Smith brings more of what we need on this team than Tatar...

Based on what? What has he accomplished that is anything like a rookie forward coming in and scoring 39 points? I don't expect Smith to have THE SAME accomplishments, that's dumb. But if he was as good, I'd expect him to have EQUIVALENT accomplishments, which he doesn't.

Also, what does he bring that we need? He's an offensive defenseman who doesn't play defense and doesn't score many points. He had fewer hits than any defenseman other than Kindl, and he doesn't play special teams.

You keep saying that he brings so much, or that he's better than Tatar. Tell me what he did and what he brings to the team.

I'm dying to know.

Edited July 7, 2014 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,934]

Here's an idea...let's trade Tatar and Smith in a package and then this debate wouldn't matter!

[Richdg 267]

Sorry Kip have to disagree here. At this point in time Smith is better than Tatar. Kronwall had his best D stats when paired with Smith. What tatar did-scored 17 goals and jumped around cheering alot has been done by hundreds if not thousands of guys in the NHL over the last 100 years. Part of this si, we s RW fans are forgeting what truely good players look like.

That does not mean I dislike tatar. but he is what he is: small, no D and a 40 point per year guy. Those are fairly easy to find.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Richdg

[krsmith17 7,191]

Give it a rest with the "accomplishments", as I already debunked that argument. I watch every Red Wings game so I base it solely on watching them play (opinion...)

He's an offensive defenseman that hasn't yet been given the opportunity on the power play that he deserves. And don't give me any s*** about how if he hasn't gotten it, he mustn't deserve it. He does. As much as I like Babcock, everyone knows he makes a lot of questionable calls when it comes to line combos and special teams opportunities. His defensive game is still growing and he showed massive improvement in that area last season, but I'm sure you're blind hate refuses to see that.

Coaching aside, Smith is more of an asset to special teams then Tatar, Smith could be a good penalty killer and great power play quarter back if given the opportunity.

You're talking about Smith's lack of defense, but Tatar isn't exactly an future Selke winner or anything. Both players are more offensive minded, but in my opinion neither have had great opportunities to succeed.

My OPINION is that Smith has the potential to be a number 2 defenseman, whereas Tatar has the potential to be a 2nd/3rd line forward. Again my OPINION!!!

[kipwinger 8,492]

Sorry Kip have to disagree here. At this point in time Smith is better than Tatar. Kronwall had his best D stats when paired with Smith. What tatar did-scored 17 goals and jumped around cheering alot has been done by hundreds if not thousands of guys in the NHL over the last 100 years. Part of this si, we s RW fans are forgeting what truely good players look like.

Wait, Tatar's 19 goals and 39 points (as a rookie) are something to scoff at because it's been done before, but Smith's 19 pts. and bad defense are somehow "better" and therefore more rare? Lol.

Also, Kronwall didn't play his best defense when paired with Smith. He had his highest Corsi rating. Those aren't the same things.

[kipwinger 8,492]

Give it a rest with the "accomplishments", as I already debunked that argument. I watch every Red Wings game so I base it solely on watching them play (opinion...)

He's an offensive defenseman that hasn't yet been given the opportunity on the power play that he deserves. And don't give me any s*** about how if he hasn't gotten it, he mustn't deserve it. He does. As much as I like Babcock, everyone knows he makes a lot of questionable calls when it comes to line combos and special teams opportunities. His defensive game is still growing and he showed massive improvement in that area last season, but I'm sure you're blind hate refuses to see that.

Coaching aside, Smith is more of an asset to special teams then Tatar, Smith could be a good penalty killer and great power play quarter back if given the opportunity.

You're talking about Smith's lack of defense, but Tatar isn't exactly an future Selke winner or anything. Both players are more offensive minded, but in my opinion neither have had great opportunities to succeed.

My OPINION is that Smith has the potential to be a number 2 defenseman, whereas Tatar has the potential to be a 2nd/3rd line forward. Again my OPINION!!!

Aha, the old eyeball test. So your opinion is based on how you think the team ought to be coached, and is almost exclusively predicated on Babcock (widely considered one of the league's top coaches) being wrong about Smith's abilities? Right.

Which is more likely? One of the best coaches in the league wildly misuses a valuable player to the detriment of the team. Or, a mediocre player who a good coach doesn't use in important situations is, nevertheless, overrated by fans.

Also, only one of Tatar and Smith is paid to play defense well. It'll be the one with the "D" next to his name on the roster. The other is paid to be a 185 lb. scoring winger...which he does...well.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Yes, the eyeball test. Hard to believe that that is what makes up my opinion isn't it?......

Are you that delusional that you don't believe that Babcock ever misuses his players? Over plays players in certain situations and under plays others?...

LOL! So defense are only paid to play defense and forwards are only paid to play offense? Got it...

Everyone, forget labeling players as offensive defensemen and defensive defensemen, and power forwards, snipers and playmakers. Kip has it figured out. Defense should all be defensive minded and forwards should all be offensive minded. Forget about Erik Karlsson, he's garbage at defense, forget about Glendenning, he can't put up points to save his life...

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Kip, I wasn't saying anything, I was just asking which one could be lived without. They both have potential to be 20-30 goal getters. I most definitely trade one of those two before I trade Mantha or Sheahan. I think Tatar would be the more sought after one by teams and he should garner a larger return. I also agree that my trade piece scenario is way over payment for Myers. I think Myers could be had for Helm and a 1st and throw Kindl in there just to make room on the roster. If one of them had to be traded, Jurco or Tatar...I just don't know which one I would be comfortable in letting go...guess it all depends on the return.

You have no idea how to gauge trade value. That package won't even get Buffalo to answer the phone, this isn't NHL 14.

[Guest DeGraa55]

You have no idea how to gauge trade value. That package won't even get Buffalo to answer the phone, this isn't NHL 14.

Look at most people trades lol. It's not just him.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Look at most people trades lol. It's not just him.

I agree but his is just awful. I lol'd when I read it.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

Don't see Kenny giving up next years 1st in any trade

[kipwinger 8,492]

I generally agree with you guys as far as trade values, but honestly, did anyone think Kenny would give up Jarnkrok and a 2nd for David Legwand on an expiring contract, or a 1st for Kyle Quincey?

You really can't blame people for having strange views on trades, it's not like trading has been done competently in Detroit in a while. People don't really have much to base their opinions on.

Edited July 7, 2014 by kipwinger