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Hockey News: Red Wings D hunting


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#81 DickieDunn

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 01:33 PM

It's St. Lame, so take it with a grain of salt or three, but... 

 Myers is Buffalo’s top defenseman and the asking price is going to start with one of Gustav Nyquist, Tomas Tatar or Tomas Jurco. Buffalo might well ask for Anthony Mantha, but the Wings aren’t relinquishing him. One player alone wouldn’t do it, though — there would likely be a high draft pick involved, too, maybe even a second player, someone in his mid-20s.

 

http://www.freep.com...troit-red-wings

 

Given his contract and his dropoff in pay since he signed that contract, despite St. Lame's statements that he's a franchise player, that's a lot to give up for a guy who might not get much better than he is now.  Of course, Pronger was traded early on because the Whalers didn't think he was developing quick enough and look what happened there.  I think I'd be ok with Tatar, Pulk, and a second.  Not much more.  Of the top 4 young wingers Detroit has, Mantha and Jurco bring size that they lack otherwise, and I think Nyquist is the better player compared to Tatar.  Pulk might end up being a 20-25 goal guy, but there's no guarantee there.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#82 brett

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 03:52 PM

well this is the position holland put himself in cause he couldnt sign a ufa. so now hes going to have to give up A LOT to get a top guy

 

Especially going after myers, i read buffalo isnt even looking to trade him so for them to accept anything its going to have to be over the top. 



#83 GoWings1905

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:39 PM

I would give up Tatar as part of a package for Myers, but no way on the other three. At this point, I would just prefer Kenny to do nothing and not overpay for a d-man that probably won't have the impact necessary to make the Wings immediate contenders anyways.

Let the best kid out of training camp grab the sixth spot on defense, move Kindl for whatever possible and say many prayers for Jimmy Howard playing behind that train wreck of a defense.
 
 
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#84 kipwinger

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 07:52 PM

Anybody willing to trade ANY of our good forwards for Tyler Myers will be very disappointed in a couple of years when these guys are regularly putting up 50 pts. and Myers is still regularly being a huge pud.  Just say no!  If this guy were a franchise defenseman then Buffalo would be trying to lock him up long term, not trade him.  I can't stress enough what a bad idea it would be to trade any of our young forwards for this guy.  We'll overpay on the trade, we'll overpay on the salary, and we'll be left standing with a guy who, if he were 6'1 and 205 lbs., nobody would consider trading this much for. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#85 DickieDunn

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Posted 06 July 2014 - 08:55 PM

Anybody willing to trade ANY of our good forwards for Tyler Myers will be very disappointed in a couple of years when these guys are regularly putting up 50 pts. and Myers is still regularly being a huge pud.  Just say no!  If this guy were a franchise defenseman then Buffalo would be trying to lock him up long term, not trade him.  I can't stress enough what a bad idea it would be to trade any of our young forwards for this guy.  We'll overpay on the trade, we'll overpay on the salary, and we'll be left standing with a guy who, if he were 6'1 and 205 lbs., nobody would consider trading this much for. 


He is locked up long term. Also based on what I've read he isn't being actively shopped but he is available.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#86 dirtydangles

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:10 AM

I'd trade Tatar + Kindl (roster spot) + 1st 2015 for Myers but that is about it. Jurco is too valuable with his size and skill blend and Nyquist is just too good already to move. Obviously I'd rather give up Pulkkinen before Tatar but Pulkkinen wouldn't be enough to get it done as a main piece. I'd be most willing to give up the our prospects in this order:

 

Pulkkinen

Tatar

Backman

Marchenko

Ouellet

Jurco = Nyquist

Sproul

Mantha

 

I just think Tatar is most easiest replaced due to his size and Pulkkinen could step into his shoes. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#87 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 12:30 AM

I'd trade Tatar + Kindl (roster spot) + 1st 2015 for Myers but that is about it. Jurco is too valuable with his size and skill blend and Nyquist is just too good already to move. Obviously I'd rather give up Pulkkinen before Tatar but Pulkkinen wouldn't be enough to get it done as a main piece. I'd be most willing to give up the our prospects in this order:
 
Pulkkinen
Tatar
Backman
Marchenko
Ouellet
Jurco = Nyquist
Sproul
Mantha
 
I just think Tatar is most easiest replaced due to his size and Pulkkinen could step into his shoes. 


Or we don't trade for anyone and keep our talent and try to sign a free agent for free next year. Myers doesn't win us a cup.

#88 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 04:28 AM

I'd trade Tatar + Kindl (roster spot) + 1st 2015 for Myers but that is about it. Jurco is too valuable with his size and skill blend and Nyquist is just too good already to move. Obviously I'd rather give up Pulkkinen before Tatar but Pulkkinen wouldn't be enough to get it done as a main piece. I'd be most willing to give up the our prospects in this order:
 
Pulkkinen
Tatar
Backman
Marchenko
Ouellet
Jurco = Nyquist
Sproul
Mantha
 
I just think Tatar is most easiest replaced due to his size and Pulkkinen could step into his shoes. 


That's a great offer but I think the Sabres would want more for him. If it only takes Tatar, a first and a cap dump for sure Holland has to do it.

Also Myers has a no movement clause so who knows if he would waive for a team with such an uncertain future.

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#89 kipwinger

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:06 AM

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right?  He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team.  How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman.  Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget.  A project.  Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out. 

 

I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant". 

 

Trade for someone better, or don't trade.  I prefer the latter actually.  No more shortcuts.  That's what got us into this mess. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#90 wings_fanatic

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:24 AM

Everyone here is aware that Tatar just had a better rookie season than Datsyuk right?  He's also about 200% more gritty than the majority of our team.  How on earth is everybody so willing to trade him away for a project defenseman.  Because that's what Myers is, lest we forget.  A project.  Just like the countless other projects we've acquired over the last five years which haven't panned out. 

 

I, for one, am not willing to move a guy who just scored 39 points buried on our third line (with rookie linemates) for a guy that Buffalo fans affectionately nicknamed "The Gentle Giant". 

 

Trade for someone better, or don't trade.  I prefer the latter actually.  No more shortcuts.  That's what got us into this mess. 

 

While that is true, it is also kind of misleading. In 2002, Pav was playing his rookie season on a team of legends. He was playing behind superstars such as Stevie Y, Federov, Shanny, Hull, and so on. He did not get that much playing time and did not get much powerplay time. In contrast, Tatar was relied on by the Wings this season because of injuries. He got close to 20 min a game at some points this season. I am not saying Tatar is not good, but that is misleading to say. However, I do agree with you that I think it is a mistake to trade him away unless it is for an Erik Karlson.



#91 krsmith17

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 07:27 AM

I agree with you Kip, I'd much prefer to keep Tatar then trade him in a package for a project player such as Myers. However, I'm definitely not near as high on Tatar as you, I'm not sure if anyone is... :tounge2: I feel that he is the most expendable out of the young forwards, including Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, Mantha, and although I may be alone in thinking this, I'd add Pulkkinen to that list as well.

 

I guess you know how I feel when I see everyone putting Smith in every trade package scenario, including yourself... There are always going to be fans angry about losing specific players, it's just the nature of the beast. I just think we should keep all of our young guys for now, including Tatar AND Smith. ;)



#92 Richdg

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:11 AM

Trade tatar? Sure. For Myers? No-not sold on him. Yes tatar can score some goals, but that is about all he brings. While chippy he isn't physical nor does he really play D. Yes you have to give to get. So he would eb the one I move. The other young forwards offer more long term and appear to me more complete players.

Myers is a guy that is a huge risk/reward guy. Yes he could be Chara in a few years. People forget how long he struggled in this league before he became the Chara we know now. Myers is what, 24?

Now if making a deal there are toher guys I would rather have over Myers: Petry, Big Buff, etc.... No need to waste our few extra assets ina risky trade.

 

last thing. There has been a few "rumors" about the RW and MDZ. Another young, fast, mobile Dman. Which would once again make us all wonder WTF with KFQ!



#93 WingedWheel91

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:32 AM

I would certainly trade Tatar if he were the centerpiece of a package to acquire Tyler Myers. I understand what kipwinger is eluding too (sorry I don't know how to reply to posts with the quote above it) but I think you could also say the same about Myers - who in only 10 months older than Tatar by the way. If you were to compare Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara and Jay Bouwmeester's first 4 seasons in the NHL, Myers certainy doesn't look out of place (with MUCH better numbers than Chara).

 

The point is that defenseman - especially "big" defenseman - take much longer to develop than forwards typically do -  and when you consider that Myers has struggled the last 3 seasons, look no further than the team he is playing on. It should come as no surprise that his best 2 seasons were the only seasons his team made the playoffs during his career, and his best season (48 points as a Rookie) was also the teams best season (division winners).

 

Pronger did not have 48 points until his 7th NHL season. Chara did not have 48 points until his 9th NHL season. Bouwmeester has never scored that many points. 

 

I don't really know who his partners have been throughout the years, but I'm willing to bet that he hasn't had one as complete as Kronwall. I can also tell you that when you look at his defensive game (because I am aware that Pronger and Chara are defensive minded players) isn't much further behind then these players as 24 year olds. He would instantly help our PP with his huge RH shot and our PK by finally having a player who can clear the front of the net.

 

KRONWALL - MYERS

ERICSSON  - SMITH

DEKEYSER - QUINCEY

 

Is a much better top 6 than anything we had last year - don't forget or underestimate that Quincey was a much better player with Dekeyser than he was with Smith.

 

I would do Tatar, Kindl, Oullete, and a 2016 1st in a heartbeat for this player.  



#94 dirtydangles

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:42 AM

I would certainly trade Tatar if he were the centerpiece of a package to acquire Tyler Myers. I understand what kipwinger is eluding too (sorry I don't know how to reply to posts with the quote above it) but I think you could also say the same about Myers - who in only 10 months older than Tatar by the way. If you were to compare Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara and Jay Bouwmeester's first 4 seasons in the NHL, Myers certainy doesn't look out of place (with MUCH better numbers than Chara).

 

The point is that defenseman - especially "big" defenseman - take much longer to develop than forwards typically do -  and when you consider that Myers has struggled the last 3 seasons, look no further than the team he is playing on. It should come as no surprise that his best 2 seasons were the only seasons his team made the playoffs during his career, and his best season (48 points as a Rookie) was also the teams best season (division winners).

 

Pronger did not have 48 points until his 7th NHL season. Chara did not have 48 points until his 9th NHL season. Bouwmeester has never scored that many points. 

 

I don't really know who his partners have been throughout the years, but I'm willing to bet that he hasn't had one as complete as Kronwall. I can also tell you that when you look at his defensive game (because I am aware that Pronger and Chara are defensive minded players) isn't much further behind then these players as 24 year olds. He would instantly help our PP with his huge RH shot and our PK by finally having a player who can clear the front of the net.

 

KRONWALL - MYERS

ERICSSON  - SMITH

DEKEYSER - QUINCEY

 

Is a much better top 6 than anything we had last year - don't forget or underestimate that Quincey was a much better player with Dekeyser than he was with Smith.

 

I would do Tatar, Kindl, Oullete, and a 2016 1st in a heartbeat for this player.  

Switch Ouellet to Jensen and I am happier. 


Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#95 krsmith17

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:43 AM

WingedWheel91, you make a lot of valid points, and I see where you're coming from. The potential is definitely there in this kid, but I think that would be MASSIVE overpayment. I understand that you have to give to get in a trade and what not, but that is way too much to give up on a guy that is still very much a project, no matter how you slice it.



#96 Richdg

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 08:44 AM

I would certainly trade Tatar if he were the centerpiece of a package to acquire Tyler Myers. I understand what kipwinger is eluding too (sorry I don't know how to reply to posts with the quote above it) but I think you could also say the same about Myers - who in only 10 months older than Tatar by the way. If you were to compare Chris Pronger, Zdeno Chara and Jay Bouwmeester's first 4 seasons in the NHL, Myers certainy doesn't look out of place (with MUCH better numbers than Chara).

 

The point is that defenseman - especially "big" defenseman - take much longer to develop than forwards typically do -  and when you consider that Myers has struggled the last 3 seasons, look no further than the team he is playing on. It should come as no surprise that his best 2 seasons were the only seasons his team made the playoffs during his career, and his best season (48 points as a Rookie) was also the teams best season (division winners).

 

Pronger did not have 48 points until his 7th NHL season. Chara did not have 48 points until his 9th NHL season. Bouwmeester has never scored that many points. 

 

I don't really know who his partners have been throughout the years, but I'm willing to bet that he hasn't had one as complete as Kronwall. I can also tell you that when you look at his defensive game (because I am aware that Pronger and Chara are defensive minded players) isn't much further behind then these players as 24 year olds. He would instantly help our PP with his huge RH shot and our PK by finally having a player who can clear the front of the net.

 

KRONWALL - MYERS

ERICSSON  - SMITH

DEKEYSER - QUINCEY

 

Is a much better top 6 than anything we had last year - don't forget or underestimate that Quincey was a much better player with Dekeyser than he was with Smith.

 

I would do Tatar, Kindl, Oullete, and a 2016 1st in a heartbeat for this player.  

I understand what you are saying and agree in principle. Your pairs are all messed up though.

 

Dekeyser-Myers

Kronwall-Smith

Ericsson-KFQ/Lashoff

 

That would be much better. The top 2 pairs can play 45 mins per game, leaving the last pair on the ice only for 15 mins per game.



#97 number9

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:01 AM

I understand what you are saying and agree in principle. Your pairs are all messed up though.
 
Dekeyser-Myers
Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-KFQ/Lashoff
 
That would be much better. The top 2 pairs can play 45 mins per game, leaving the last pair on the ice only for 15 mins per game.


No no, ur pairs are all messed up.

Kronwall - DeKeyser
Ericsson - Myers
Smith - Kyle Funtimes Quincey

All three of those pairings are much more balanced

#98 frankgrimes

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

In reality this is hardly a tough decision ask yourself this:

 

Would you trade Tatar, a first and a cap dump for a young Chara, Pronger ? Personally I would but everbody is different.


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blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..

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#99 kipwinger

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:20 AM

I agree with you Kip, I'd much prefer to keep Tatar then trade him in a package for a project player such as Myers. However, I'm definitely not near as high on Tatar as you, I'm not sure if anyone is... :tounge2: I feel that he is the most expendable out of the young forwards, including Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan, Mantha, and although I may be alone in thinking this, I'd add Pulkkinen to that list as well.

 

I guess you know how I feel when I see everyone putting Smith in every trade package scenario, including yourself... There are always going to be fans angry about losing specific players, it's just the nature of the beast. I just think we should keep all of our young guys for now, including Tatar AND Smith. ;)

 

You're certainly welcome to like whatever players you want.  But there's a huge difference between trading a guy who excelled as a rookie (Tatar) and a guy who struggled as a rookie (Smith).  I have never, ever, denied that Smith has potential.  I'm not denying it now.  But I think it's hugely revisionist to put him in the same boat as Tatar.  Being REALLY forgiving and giving Smith extra gold stars for his late season improvements, he was still only pedestrian as a rookie.  Tatar, on the other hand, was sixth in rookie scoring behind McKinnon, Palat, Nyquist, Tyler Johnson, and Krug.  Not too shabby.

 

 

While that is true, it is also kind of misleading. In 2002, Pav was playing his rookie season on a team of legends. He was playing behind superstars such as Stevie Y, Federov, Shanny, Hull, and so on. He did not get that much playing time and did not get much powerplay time. In contrast, Tatar was relied on by the Wings this season because of injuries. He got close to 20 min a game at some points this season. I am not saying Tatar is not good, but that is misleading to say. However, I do agree with you that I think it is a mistake to trade him away unless it is for an Erik Karlson.

 

Pav's average TOI (as a rookie) was 13:39 with 1:59 of PP time per game.  Even strength, he was playing with Brett Hull, who scored 37 goals and 76 points that year.  His power play time was also spent feeding legends. 

 

Tatar's average TOI was 14:21 per game with 2:17 of PP time per game.  The difference of about one additional shift per game when compared to Datyuk.  Plus, Tatar didn't play with a hall of famer.  Hell, he didn't even play with an all star.  He played with Riley Sheahan and Tomas Jurco who combined for about a third of the number of points Hull put up on Datsyuk's wing.  You think Tatar might have a few more assists if he was passing to Brett Hull?   

 

His rookie season was more impressive.  If you didn't already know that the first guy was Datsyuk, you'd surely agree. 


Edited by kipwinger, 07 July 2014 - 09:21 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#100 Travis

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Posted 07 July 2014 - 09:31 AM

First, I apologize because much of this has likely already been discussed - but I've been absent from around these parts for quite sometime. Honestly, I've not paid a lot of attention to hockey over the past year, but free agency always gets me.

 

Obviously, the Red Wings struck out on their targets and we're now talking back-up plans. Looking at Capgeek's Free Agent list I see some intriguing names, though. I understand that there are reasons for their current availability, but among available UFA defensemen I see:

 

Michael Del Zotto

Anton Volchenkov

Shane O'Brien

and Joni Pitkanen.

 

Obviously, these aren't top tier defensemen that the team is looking for, but they could conceivably fill serviceable roles, no? I know time doesn't do many favors, but I recall Del Zotto being a productive defenseman for NYR at one point, and Volchenkov and O'Brien being former targets who could provide some proverbial sandpaper. Or perhaps there's some value to signing Pitkanen and immediately placing him on LTIR in hopes that he can someday return to form? 

 

Like I said, I've not paid much attention to hockey since the last lockout, so maybe these guys are little more than scraps - but at this point Mr. Holland and Co. need to get creative. I would hate to see them sacrifice their up-and-coming forward corps for someone like Tyler Myers. 


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