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Red Wings Target Mike Green


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#201 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 01:52 PM

Here is a simple two-step process I think we should all consider when arbitrarily comparing the Legwand trade to any/every potential trade we have yet to make...

 

1. The Legwand trade was bad, but would have been a lot better had he re-signed.

2. No-one (Including Mike Babcock or Ken Holland) wanted Legwand re-signed.

 

So why make the trade? First of all, at the time of the trade - he became our #1 Center and helped us make the playoffs to continue the streak - don't underestimate the chemistry Franzen, Legwand, Nyquist had and the streak they also went on. Forget the name on the back of the jersey but focus on what Legwand represented at the time, and understand any trade deadline deal where you acquire a #1 Center is going to cost you a decent prospect.

 

Yes - I get it, Legwand was a rental, and he has never been a #1 Center (but was forced into that role because of Injuries) so giving away our TOP center prospect was a HUGE overpayment...

 

WRONG - Why? Because Calle Jarnkrok was probably NEVER going to play for the Detroit Red Wings - much like what may happen with some of our Defense prospects in the coming years -  You either risk losing them on waivers, or risk losing them to Europe when they can't crack your roster (see Adam Almqvist). In terms of Jarnkrok, he is what we already have a surplus of... undersized and a natural Center. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Helm, Glendenning, Sheahan, Andersson and Franzen are all natural centers ahead of Jarnkrok of the depth chart, plus most of them are on long-term contracts that expire way after Jarnkrok was going to stick around for.

 

Jarnkrok was never going to play for the Wings?  We had so few centers in our prospect pool that we literally just drafted 5 of them and signed another from Europe.  AND, until we drafted Larkin, not a single center prospect in our organization projected as having top six upside.  Not one.  So yeah, he'd probably have played a game or two. 


Edited by kipwinger, 10 July 2014 - 01:57 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#202 WingedWheel91

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:10 PM

Don't really understand the comparison between Jarnkrok and the 2014 Draft Class - Calle Jarnkrok is going to be 23 years old when this season starts, but players drafted by the Red Wings today are almost a full 5 years younger than he is... Meaning they are 2-3 years away from playing. Calle Jarnkrok is ready now and wants to play now - but unfortunately he wasn't going to make the Detroit Red Wings this season, and is an RFA in July.

 

And If he wasn't going to make this team in a bottom 6 role (which is a reasonable approach considering his defensive inefficiencies) - He would have probably been waiting until one of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Franzen, or Nyquists (which is coming) contracts to be off the books at a minimum. Of our top 6, the first contract to expire is Datsyuk's in 3 years. Jarnkrok would not have waited that long.  

 

Often overlooked is the fact that our GM who recognized this, places on emphasis on opportunity and may have wanted to give the kid a chance to play elsewhere. It helped continue the streak... which may be one of the few motivating factors left in attracting players.



#203 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:14 PM

Don't really understand the comparison between Jarnkrok and the 2014 Draft Class - Calle Jarnkrok is going to be 23 years old when this season starts, but players drafted by the Red Wings today are almost a full 5 years younger than he is... Meaning they are 2-3 years away from playing. Calle Jarnkrok is ready now and wants to play now - but unfortunately he wasn't going to make the Detroit Red Wings this season, and is an RFA in July.

 

And If he wasn't going to make this team in a bottom 6 role (which is a reasonable approach considering his defensive inefficiencies) - He would have probably been waiting until one of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Franzen, or Nyquists (which is coming) contracts to be off the books at a minimum. Of our top 6, the first contract to expire is Datsyuk's in 3 years. Jarnkrok would not have waited that long.  

 

Often overlooked is the fact that our GM who recognized this, places on emphasis on opportunity and may have wanted to give the kid a chance to play elsewhere. It helped continue the streak... which may be one of the few motivating factors left in attracting players.

 

He was an AHL rookie, and there is absolutely no evidence that "he wanted to play now".  That's just something people keep saying.  He's far from the first Red Wings player to be expected to play a couple years in the AHL despite being older and having played professionally before. 

 

Also, you're just making things up.  He doesn't have "defensive inefficiencies".  He was lauded for his "Zetterberg-like" commitment to two-way play.

 

I'm so tired of people using post-hoc justifications to try and make that trade look like it wasn't a total disaster.  He wasn't going back to Europe.  He wasn't demanding immediate playing time.  He would surely have got a chance to be better than Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and/or Helm.  And he DEFINITELY isn't bad defensively. 

 

It was s*** trade.  That's all. 


Edited by kipwinger, 10 July 2014 - 02:18 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#204 arag

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:21 PM

Jarnkrok is like 156lbs. I don't see how he can play the role of defensive center that Red Wings expect from their centers. He may get few points playing with top wingers. However I don't see him as an elite center in any NHL system. I don't think our management are that stupid to let him go for someone like Legwand.

Jarnkrok is like 156lbs. I don't see how he can play the role of defensive center that Red Wings expect from their centers. He may get few points playing with top wingers. However I don't see him as an elite center in any NHL system. I don't think our management is that stupid to let him go for someone like Legwand.



#205 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:25 PM

Jarnkrok is like 156lbs. I don't see how he can play the role of defensive center that Red Wings expect from their centers. He may get few points playing with top wingers. However I don't see him as an elite center in any NHL system. I don't think our management are that stupid to let him go for someone like Legwand.

 

Maybe he wouldn't have succeeded.  I don't know.  But to pretend like he'd have never gotten the opportunity if he hadn't been traded is complete b.s. We gave a year and a half to Emmerton.  I think Jarnkrok would have managed at least a look. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#206 WingedWheel91

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:28 PM

It requires common sense and not "evidence". If he were a Red Wing today, he would not make this team - when he becomes an RFA in July, he does not have to resign with the team and he can go back to play in Europe (which was reported at the time of the trade). No he has not published a book about his intentions if he wasn't traded, but I'm sure the reports were not just made up.



#207 arag

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:30 PM


Jarnkrok is like 156lbs. I don't see how he can play the role of defensive center that Red Wings expect from their centers. He may get few points playing with top wingers. However I don't see him as an elite center in any NHL system. I don't think our management are that stupid to let him go for someone like Legwand.



Maybe he wouldn't have succeeded. I don't know. But to pretend like he'd have never gotten the opportunity if he hadn't been traded is complete b.s. We gave a year and a half to Emmerton. I think Jarnkrok would have managed at least a look.

Who knows what really went wrong with this kid. Maybe more that just not being given an opportunity to play with the big club. The bottom line is that he is gone. I just hope it doesn't come back and bits us and turns into one of the worst moves in history. Coaching and management liked Emmerton for his PK abilities, which iam sure Jarnkrok does not possess.

Edited by arag, 10 July 2014 - 02:34 PM.


#208 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:31 PM

It requires common sense and not "evidence". If he were a Red Wing today, he would not make this team - when he becomes an RFA in July, he does not have to resign with the team and he can go back to play in Europe (which was reported at the time of the trade). No he has not published a book about his intentions if he wasn't traded, but I'm sure the reports were not just made up.

 

Both the Red Wing organization, and Jarnkrok himself acknowledged the inaccuracy of any "going back to Europe" claims.  You can put that one to bed.

 

Secondly, guys like Teemu Pulkkinen and Mattias Backman are ready to play now and aren't going to make the team this year either.  It doesn't mean they'll never get the opportunity to try.  Why is it always either/or with everyone around here? 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#209 Dave

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:33 PM

 

He was an AHL rookie, and there is absolutely no evidence that "he wanted to play now".  That's just something people keep saying.  He's far from the first Red Wings player to be expected to play a couple years in the AHL despite being older and having played professionally before. 

 

Also, you're just making things up.  He doesn't have "defensive inefficiencies".  He was lauded for his "Zetterberg-like" commitment to two-way play.

 

I'm so tired of people using post-hoc justifications to try and make that trade look like it wasn't a total disaster.  He wasn't going back to Europe.  He wasn't demanding immediate playing time.  He would surely have got a chance to be better than Andersson, Sheahan, Glendening, and/or Helm.  And he DEFINITELY isn't bad defensively. 

 

It was s*** trade.  That's all. 

 

 

20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

 

Is this done yet? Can we please move on? I kind of don't even like this website anymore because of this, Hossa, and Suter circle jerks that constantly get brought up in not some, but ALL of the posts on this site.

 

 



#210 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:36 PM

Who knows what really went wrong with this kid. Maybe more that just not being given an opportunity to play with the big club. The bottom line is that he is gone. I just hope it doesn't come back and bits us and turns into one of the worst moves in history.

 

It doesn't have to be "the worst move in history" to be a bad move.  Also, given how recently this happened and how bad it already turned out (having a center and a 2nd might have been nice this offseason), I can't believe I'm having to defend against going it again (with Tatar instead of Jarnkrok) for Green. 


 

 

20080202231407!Beating-a-dead-horse.gif

 

Is this done yet? Can we please move on? I kind of don't even like this website anymore because of this, Hossa, and Suter circle jerks that constantly get brought up in not some, but ALL of the posts on this site.

 

 

 

The point was to suggest that trading good talent for expiring contracts is risky.  I'd never have said another word about it if that very obvious sentiment was immediately set upon by people hell bent on trying to make it look like that trade was anything other than a bad move by Holland.  I'm not lamenting the loss of Jarnkrok.  I'm hope Holland isn't dumb enough to do it again with someone better.

 

So can you stop being condescending now?


Edited by kipwinger, 10 July 2014 - 02:42 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#211 arag

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:43 PM

Defenetly need to move on. With the new NHL and the cap there will be some bad moves as well as some good moves by every team. Let's just hope we get that elusive righty D man and have great season.

#212 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:48 PM

Let's just hope we get that elusive righty D man and have great season.

 

...without giving up too much for him.  Which was the central point of the last two pages worth of discussion. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#213 Jesusberg

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 02:53 PM

1. Discussing the Legwand trade isn't "beating a dead horse". Around here, bringing Franzen into every single discussion/post would be a much better example of that. The trade happened in March, and is comparable to the situation the team is in now. There is going to be a fear that Holland will overpay in a trade for quite some time - a fear that has some legitimacy for those who see the Jarnkrok move as an overpayment.

2. Who the hell said Jarnkrok was bad defensively? That's a load of bull. The Z comparisons were there, and Blashill was quoted throughout the year saying that Jarnkrok was solid defensively. Just a quick Google search shows, “He’s such a complete player, so, so well-rounded in his game, that he never cheats at all offensively,” said Griffins head coach Jeff Blashill.

3. No one, not a single person can say whether or not Jarnkrok would have been given a chance to play for the Red Wings this season. He was moved because management was desperate for a center, but who knows what would have happened if the team kept him around. It's impossible to say what would have happened for certain - it's not common sense, it's speculation.


Edited by Jesusberg, 10 July 2014 - 02:57 PM.


#214 T.Low

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the update on the Jarnkrok Legwand trade' was curious about the status of that.

#215 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:00 PM

Thanks for the update on the Jarnkrok Legwand trade' was curious about the status of that.


:lol:

Thanks, I needed that. Rough day.

LGWsig_zpsa75c5d1e.jpg

 


#216 WingedWheel91

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:06 PM

I specifically don't quote or directly reply to responses because I am not interested in having a one on one conversation over a forum, with someone I don't know. Based on the number of posts some people have, I am sure it exists but I'm really on this site to read and share (my) opinions, like them or not.

 

Trades are and always will be about risk vs. reward and hindsight is always 20/20. When we traded for Legwand and put him on a line with Franzen and Nyquist - they simply dominated. They put us in a position to win on a consistent basis, and we made the playoffs because of it. During that time, there were some games and I remember the NJ one specifically where we had pencilled Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Abby / Franzen - Legwand - Nyquist to be a great top 6 when D and Z returned to the lineup. Very few people complained about the trade at the time, but when they did come back - something happened to both Legwand and Nyquist. The pace was never assumed to continue, but Legwand barely cracked the roster during the playoffs.

 

You can evaluate the trade: If Jarnkrok turns into an all-star, we lose. If he turns into a mediocre player, who cares. If he struggles to be an NHL regular based on his size/skills, we win because we kept a great streak alive and in that time, found out who Gustav Nyquist was.



#217 Jesusberg

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

Thanks for the update on the Jarnkrok Legwand trade' was curious about the status of that.


I'll be going into great detail examining Kent Huskins' exit next week.



#218 kipwinger

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:10 PM

I specifically don't quote or directly reply to responses because I am not interested in having a one on one conversation over a forum, with someone I don't know. Based on the number of posts some people have, I am sure it exists but I'm really on this site to read and share (my) opinions, like them or not.

 

Trades are and always will be about risk vs. reward and hindsight is always 20/20. When we traded for Legwand and put him on a line with Franzen and Nyquist - they simply dominated. They put us in a position to win on a consistent basis, and we made the playoffs because of it. During that time, there were some games and I remember the NJ one specifically where we had pencilled Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Abby / Franzen - Legwand - Nyquist to be a great top 6 when D and Z returned to the lineup. Very few people complained about the trade at the time, but when they did come back - something happened to both Legwand and Nyquist. The pace was never assumed to continue, but Legwand barely cracked the roster during the playoffs.

 

You can evaluate the trade: If Jarnkrok turns into an all-star, we lose. If he turns into a mediocre player, who cares. If he struggles to be an NHL regular based on his size/skills, we win because we kept a great streak alive and in that time, found out who Gustav Nyquist was.

 

So you're cool with doing the exact same thing to get Mike Green, except that I'll be Tatar or Jurco going the other way?

 

Because that's why this all came up.  To discuss the inherent risks associated with trading too much for guys on expiring contracts.

 

So based on your analysis of the last trade we made for a guy on an expiring contract (Legwand) you'd say it's worth it or no?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#219 Jesusberg

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:18 PM

I think the bottom line right now is that the perceived price for Green is a wee bit high - management (specifically Trotz) is maintaining that Green factors into their future plans. Posturing or not, it's being done to give the guy more value. I think the only way Detroit gets him right now is by prying him away from Washington via overpayment. If that means moving Tatar+, or any of the bigger names, count me out for now.

If Green could be had for, let's say, Andersson, Pulkkinen + 2nd that would be the maximum that I would want to pay, personally. And giving up that 2nd is scary, as Detroit is already without a 3rd rounder. That may not be enough in Washington's eyes, and it likely isn't right now. I actually like what Green brings, but he comes with a lot of risks - risks that should bring his price tag down. The issue is that the Caps don't have to move him right now, and Detroit is clearly desperate for a RH, offensive defender. At this moment, Washington has the leverage. IMO, it would be silly to make a move for Green until/if his price goes down some.


Edited by Jesusberg, 10 July 2014 - 03:20 PM.


#220 MileHighWingsGuy

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:19 PM

We seem to be trapped with an endless supply of future stars that never play for the Wings yet are untouchable entities for trading to make the team better every year and a GM constantly in

need of making a trade and kicking the tires yet never pulls a trigger. I personally think we need a GM that can evaluate the guys we will build around and weed out some of the lesser talent to

make the team competitive to hoist a cup or two in the near term.


RedWing fan behind enemy lines





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