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Red Wings Target Mike Green


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#21 chances14

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:23 PM

Again, you wouldn't give up Tatar but you would be completely okay with giving up Jurco in a trade such as this?...

 

Neither would be going the other way in this trade anyway... I would expect a mid level roster player or mid level prospect and a draft pick.

nah, i think you're going to have to give up one good cheap young player to get this deal done

 

something like tatar, andersson, and 2nd

 

holland might have some leverage here with the capitals close to the cap limit and green having only 1 year left on his deal. green has a modified no trade clause as well


Edited by chances14, 08 July 2014 - 02:25 PM.


#22 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:30 PM

Def wouldn't want to give up Jurco. But if it had to be either Jurco or Tatar, I'd have to go with Jurco. Jurco is much more unproven than Tatar at this point.


How is Jurco a more valuable player?? Because he's bigger? He has a much smaller sample size of NHL games. Tatar has showed that he for sure belongs in this league. Jurco has looked solid but def hasn't been as impressive as Tatar.

 

Size, Skill, Aggressiveness, Defensive Awareness, Younger, Higher ceiling,  Doesn't vent to the press every time he has an issue with playing time/role/contract.


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When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#23 GoWings1905

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:31 PM

 Tatar has completely outplayed Jurco up to this point. Sure he's not a big guy, but go tell Marty St. Louis he's too small to be an impact player. Jurco has been okay but not overly impressive by any means. Not that he won't improve and get better. But at this point in time Tatar has brought much more to the table than Jurco.


Tatar is two years older and spent more time in Grand Rapids developing, so obviously he is going to look more NHL ready than Jurco right now. Tatar is a pretty limited player -- he's very good at that particular skill (scoring goals), but that's about all he brings to the table. At best, Tatar is probably another version of Jiri Hudler.
 
 
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#24 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:31 PM

Why O Why does everyone think that the starting point for every single trade on earth is a high end prospect or roster player with upside?  None of Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, or Mantha would go the other way in a trade for Green.  Good god, just look at every other deadline deal for guys who aren't superstars.  You ever see those kinds of roster players or prospects going the other way for a teams fourth defenseman?

 

Anaheim got ONE top prospect, a mid tier prospect, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan...and he was under (a very affordable) contract.  Mike Green will DEFINITELY not cost us more than that. 

 

Where do these relative values come from?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#25 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:34 PM

Why O Why does everyone think that the starting point for every single trade on earth is a high end prospect or roster player with upside?  None of Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, or Mantha would go the other way in a trade for Green.  Good god, just look at every other deadline deal for guys who aren't superstars.  You ever see those kinds of roster players or prospects going the other way for a teams fourth defenseman?

 

Anaheim got ONE top prospect, a mid tier prospect, and a 1st for Bobby Ryan...and he was under (a very affordable) contract.  Mike Green will DEFINITELY not cost us more than that. 

 

Where do these relative values come from?

 

Because it's pretty well known that that's the starting point for many GMs we try and trade with....


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#26 Jesusberg

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:35 PM

At this moment, I don't see what incentive the Caps have for moving Green - at least not until near the beginning of the year. Why move an asset when you don't have to? They'll likely try to drive his price up all off-season. I would assume that unless Detroit knocks MacLellan's socks off with an offer, he won't be moving Green any time soon.

As much as people think that Green's injury issues, Washington's number of defenders and closeness to the salary cap give Holland some leverage, I would have to think that MacLellan knows Holland is desperate for a RH guy. I don't see much leverage on Holland's end of this - just perhaps a chance to pay a little less because of those issues. It's the difference between giving up Nyquist/Mantha in a deal and Tatar/Jurco/Pulkkinen in one.



#27 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 02:36 PM

People also seem to think Kindl has positive value in a trade. At his contract, I don't think that's the case.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#28 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:01 PM

People also seem to think Kindl has positive value in a trade. At his contract, I don't think that's the case.


Yea I see Kindl as more of a burden when trading. Like "please take this contract off our hands and we will give you more value".

If Ken Holland is really the top GM that he thinks he is, he will get Green without giving up Jurco/Nyquist/Mantha/Tatar.

#29 DeGraa55

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

People also seem to think Kindl has positive value in a trade. At his contract, I don't think that's the case.


Not only that but if Washington gets rid of green it's cause they have 8 defenseman...why would they want another one with more time left in contract??

#30 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:29 PM

 

Because it's pretty well known that that's the starting point for many GMs we try and trade with....

 

That's the well known starting place when we were inquiring about guys under contract, like Myers and Yandle.  Not for expiring contracts.  Just because one trade scenario would require Mantha in return doesn't mean ALL trade scenarios would require Mantha in return. 

 

Also, it's only been "reported" that the starting point is Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco...by people like Helen St. James no less.  The very same people that had Niskanen going for 6+ million a year, Ehrhoff going for 5 years, Boyle for 5.5 mil a season, and Vanek for over 7 million a year. 

 

In short, the very same people who ALSO don't know s*** about the value of hockey players. 


Edited by kipwinger, 08 July 2014 - 03:32 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#31 brett

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:41 PM

i dont give a f*** what kind of points he can put up when he cant play defense. 



#32 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

 

That's the well known starting place when we were inquiring about guys under contract, like Myers and Yandle.  Not for expiring contracts.  Just because one trade scenario would require Mantha in return doesn't mean ALL trade scenarios would require Mantha in return. 

 

Also, it's only been "reported" that the starting point is Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco...by people like Helen St. James no less.  The very same people that had Niskanen going for 6+ million a year, Ehrhoff going for 5 years, Boyle for 5.5 mil a season, and Vanek for over 7 million a year. 

 

In short, the very same people who ALSO don't know s*** about the value of hockey players. 

 

I didn't even mention Mantha. That would be ridiculous.  I said Tatar or Pulkkinen plus Kndl(which is a dump and if anything has negative value) and a conditional pick on resigning.

 

I don't think that's out of line since I don't see us trading our 1st and we've got to give up something of value.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#33 Datsyukian-Deke

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:50 PM

i dont give a f*** what kind of points he can put up when he cant play defense. 


He can't be much worse then some of the guys we have playing defense and he brings offensive skills to the table that our team simply doesn't have. Our powerplay would be drastically better with Green

#34 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:55 PM

i dont give a f*** what kind of points he can put up when he cant play defense. 

 

To be fair, literally half of our defense can NEITHER play defense NOR score points.  He's at least an improvement in that regard. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#35 marcaractac

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:56 PM

Keep Tatar over Jurco? Really?? Please tell me you're the only Wings fan that would do that... Jurco has top line winger written all over him. Tatar on the other hand is a middling 2nd, 3rd line winger. I guarantee when GM's are talking to Ken Holland, they are asking for Jurco long before Tatar is mentioned. But no need to worry because Green shouldn't cost anything close to any of those guys...

 

Ideally you'd like to keep them both, but if I had to choose one to trade, it would be Tatar. Not a knock on him at all, but Jurco is gonna be a special player. He has size and knows how to use it.



#36 mvanpop

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

I've seen a lot of Tatar or jurco as a trade item. Why not Anderson? Washington needs centers and you could add franzen and or a pick to get the deal done. Anderson is already an extra piece in our lineup

#37 marcaractac

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:00 PM

 

To be fair, literally half of our defense can NEITHER play defense NOR score points.  He's at least an improvement in that regard. 

 

The problem isn't the lack of ability to defend, it is a lack of ability to move the puck out of the zone. Green would make this team MUCH better at that. Pair him with a Kronwall or Ericsson and all will be fine.


I've seen a lot of Tatar or jurco as a trade item. Why not Anderson? Washington needs centers and you could add franzen and or a pick to get the deal done. Anderson is already an extra piece in our lineup

 

Andersson is definitely expendable, he just doesn't have any trade value. You might get a 4th round draft pick for him if you're lucky. Even that I feel is being generous. He is solid defensively, and can chip in points from time to time, but he is too slow. That will always hold him back.



#38 Son of a Wing

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:01 PM

I've seen a lot of Tatar or jurco as a trade item. Why not Anderson? Washington needs centers and you could add franzen and or a pick to get the deal done. Anderson is already an extra piece in our lineup

 

Anderson has no value and Franzen isn't going anywhere.  He's a wing for life whether people like it or not.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#39 kipwinger

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:01 PM

 

I didn't even mention Mantha. That would be ridiculous.  I said Tatar or Pulkkinen plus Kndl(which is a dump and if anything has negative value) and a conditional pick on resigning.

 

I don't think that's out of line since I don't see us trading our 1st and we've got to give up something of value.

 

A decent prospect or two and a 2nd or 3rd round pick will likely get this done if two prospects and a first got Iginla as a rental.  Pulkkinen (or Backman) and either A) a 2nd round pick, or B) a 3rd plus Callahan or Ferraro, would get this deal done. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#40 Travis

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

As someone without a real understanding of Corsi, this is a bit over my head, but there's an interesting analysis about Green here: http://www.mc79hocke...positions-best/


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