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anthonyn66

Wings re-sign Cleary $1.5 mill + $1mill in game bonuses

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I'll make it short: The good (drafting, prospects) far outweighs the bad (arguably the missed FAs, signing of washed up Vets).

And, maybe most important for me, the Organisation is a classy one and Holland is a huge reason for that. I don't want to win a cup if we deal with things like Vancouver or Montreal or with having players who behave like assholes on the ice like Lucic.

Montreal I give you that but Lucic ? Yeah he can be a total douchebag but he is one of the best powerforwards in the game (behind Backes) and tough as nails. This is a guy who is at his best when he is pissed off and playing with a chip on his shoulder.

Our prospects:

Nobody knows if Tatar and Nyquist can repeat their unreal season, it is really possible that they might have some sort of a sophomore slumb. Mantha, Marchenko, Sproul haven't played yet or played at a too small sample size so I would be wise to temper the expectations and let all of them develop.

I also disagree with the ntoion that the good outweights the bad:

Drafting is mainly done by scouts, they are the ones looking at the players and providing the neccessary input for GMs, coaches. To me a lot of credit has to go to Hakan Anderson he just seems to have a great eye for swedish prospects. Btw. Pittsburgh fired Shero because he didn't receive the success they expected and he tied himself faith to Bylsma and suffered the same fate... BUT the guy has had much more success than Holland during the last years.

Btw.

2 players (one is a former allstar and winger, the other one a very good second line center) - 3 million caphit

Dan C. - 2,5 million caphit

Also if I was a betting man I would bet we are going to bring back Alfie...so then we will have the exact same roster as last year just one year older and this crap will continue till we miss the playoffs and I'm at the point where I'm cheering for that, if it means Holland moves up and we are going to see either a real rebuild or at least no more over the hill players.

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Lucic is one of the best powerforwards in the game but spears people from behind out of nowhere and reacts like a sissy when he lost a series because he couldn't stand the trashtalk . Not what I call "tough as nails" and certainly nobody I want to have on a team I cheer for.

Of course the Drafting relies on the scout reports but trading picks up and down and the last decisions who is draftet lays in the hands of Holland and his staff. The Scoutingstaff itself also is in Hollands responsebility. Of course he doesn't do it all alone but you have to give him credit where it is due.

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"Of course I can explain what's wrong with this, I just don't want to! I'll just say it's made up cuz i'm a mod" Well done harold, well done.

Sure it's speculation. But it isn't baseless. It's called extrapolation and its amazing the amount of info you can get by it. You should try it sometime!

Answer me this:

Do you really think he turned down a 3 year deal from Detroit because his heart was in Detroit? Does that make sense to you?

- doesn't make sense to me

Did he turn down multi-year offers from multiple teams (or even 1 team) to come back? Or was it a tryout with one team with no guarantees?

-Indications are it was the latter (I'll admit I'm not positive as its been claimed both ways, still alot of confusion about this)

Do you think this handshake deal has nothing to do with this signing?

-Quotes from Holland strongly indicate it does

Do you really think his agent was just going to forget about said deal?

-Wouldn't be much of an agent if he did. Of course he's going to reach out to the GM about it.

And please tell me what kind of positive leadership the guy is bringing to the table and (if there is any) how that outweighs his on ice performances.

-If they need his locker room presence so bad then they could pay him to sit in the locker room. Pay him a million buck for a few years to be 'President of Team Morale'. No need to sign him to a playing contract.

Bingo

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"Of course I can explain what's wrong with this, I just don't want to! I'll just say it's made up cuz i'm a mod" Well done harold, well done.

It came off as maybe more blunt than intended because I didn't elaborate, but my point stands that you are making all this conjecture about things we have no real idea about.

Sure it's speculation. But it isn't baseless. It's called extrapolation and its amazing the amount of info you can get by it. You should try it sometime!

Answer me this:

Do you really think he turned down a 3 year deal from Detroit because his heart was in Detroit? Does that make sense to you?

- doesn't make sense to me

I have no idea and neither do you. He may not have realized how much he liked playing on the Wings until he was confronted with the reality of playing on another team. Who knows.

Did he turn down multi-year offers from multiple teams (or even 1 team) to come back? Or was it a tryout with one team with no guarantees?

-Indications are it was the latter (I'll admit I'm not positive as its been claimed both ways, still alot of confusion about this)

Holland has said (who you're using as a source so let's say he's reliable) that Cleary had multiple offers from other teams.

“He had three-year offers from some teams last year,” Holland said. “We said at the time we would talk at the end of the season.”

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/sports/20140710/red-wings-sign-cleary-for-another-year

Do you think this handshake deal has nothing to do with this signing?

-Quotes from Holland strongly indicate it does

I never said it doesn't. As you point out, Holland said it does.

Do you really think his agent was just going to forget about said deal?

-Wouldn't be much of an agent if he did. Of course he's going to reach out to the GM about it.

Probably. who knows. But you're stating it as fact and it's speculation on your part.

And please tell me what kind of positive leadership the guy is bringing to the table and (if there is any) how that outweighs his on ice performances.

-If they need his locker room presence so bad then they could pay him to sit in the locker room. Pay him a million buck for a few years to be 'President of Team Morale'. No need to sign him to a playing contract.

I don't need to tell you any of that. If you read any of my posts in this thread, I'm not in favor of bringing Cleary back.

I just pointed out that you're hating him for invented reasons. That he only came back because no one else wanted him. That he thinks he deserves special treatment. That his agent keeps bringing up this handshake deal.

Nothing you've quoted confirms any of that. It's all just your speculation, which you admit. Which means it is not factual, it is made up based on your opinion.

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Gee, I would have rather had Morrow for the $1.55M Yzerman signed him at, than cleary...of course I'd rather have an open position over cleary. Morrow, while in his elder years of NHL, is still twice the hockey player cleary is... Add him to the list of players that should be here over cleary. #firekenholland

I tell you what, there better be a grand scheme here with all this nonsense signing...#fkq and cleary were/are two of the worst UFA's that were available, and I am not even letting my anger speak for me.

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Bingo

Of course you missed the point about extrapolation and it not being baseless. Besides, speculation is part of being a fan. It's what happens after the GM puts out cryptic messages.

And Harold you really aren't sure whether Cleary's agent would bring that up?

After Holland indicates that he kinda sorta didn't really want to sign him, but loyalty yadda yadda...That's you're honest opinion?

There probably isn't a sports agent who wouldn't at the very least try and use that if their client wanted another deal (I know more 'speculation')

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Paraphrasing, but that's the gist.

To be fair though, they offered to follow up with me about it but I refused. I just wasn't interesting in hearing the same recycled banter to try to convince me this is the best team ever.

So you don't have any emails from them?

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Of course you missed the point about extrapolation and it not being baseless. Besides, speculation is part of being a fan. It's what happens after the GM puts out cryptic messages.

And Harold you really aren't sure whether Cleary's agent would bring that up?

After Holland indicates that he kinda sorta didn't really want to sign him, but loyalty yadda yadda...That's you're honest opinion?

There probably isn't a sports agent who wouldn't at the very least try and use that if their client wanted another deal (I know more 'speculation')

I just don't see why you're creating things to get mad at Cleary about. There's plenty enough to be mad about as a Red Wings fan right now that is factually known.

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I just don't see why you're creating things to get mad at Cleary about. There's plenty enough to be mad about as a Red Wings fan right now that is factually known.

I don't know. I guess because these are the things I'm upset about....

I mean if I said he got resigned because he and Ken want to bond over their love of pokemon, then sure you would be right that I was just 'making s*** up' to be pissed about.

I really don't think I'm reaching nearly as much as you are suggesting I am. Not even close. In fact I didn't think I was reaching at all on most of those points I made.

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I'll make it short: The good (drafting, prospects) far outweighs the bad (arguably the missed FAs, signing of washed up Vets).

And, maybe most important for me, the Organisation is a classy one and Holland is a huge reason for that. I don't want to win a cup if we deal with things like Vancouver or Montreal or with having players who behave like assholes on the ice like Lucic.

Since getting a new GM automatically means we become a scummy, bottom-feeding team full of assholes...

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I don't know. I guess because these are the things I'm upset about....

I mean if I said he got resigned because he and Ken want to bond over their love of pokemon, then sure you would be right that I was just 'making s*** up' to be pissed about.

I really don't think I'm reaching nearly as much as you are suggesting I am. Not even close. In fact I didn't think I was reaching at all on most of those points I made.

Now speculating isn't reaching? Gimme a break

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It's only a 1 year deal for $1.5 Million plus, so there's really no reason to get upset. I would think only rookies and guys still RFA's make less then $1.5 Million. We know if Cleary doesn't produce Babs will put him on the 4th line.

I don't mind seeing guys like Cleary given a chance to finish off their career with their head high, he's done a lot for the organization, instead of being kicked to the curb.

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It's only a 1 year deal for $1.5 Million plus, so there's really no reason to get upset. I would think only rookies and guys still RFA's make less then $1.5 Million. We know if Cleary doesn't produce Babs will put him on the 4th line.

I don't mind seeing guys like Cleary given a chance to finish off their career with their head high, he's done a lot for the organization, instead of being kicked to the curb.

It has the potential and likelihood of being $2.5 million for a player that produced all of eight points last season. Tomas Jurco scored eight goals alone in about 15 fewer games than Cleary and was a big reason why the Red Wings made the playoffs at all. If your argument is that this deal is somehow a bargain for Cleary, I completely disagree. Brendan Morrow and Dany Heatley got less money than Cleary too, so there's two examples of (better) veteran players that were more affordable than Cleary.

Cleary got his chance last season to go out with his head held high (a mistake a year ago too, no less) at the expense of the Red Wings MVP. There's plenty to be upset about. Hence, 24 pages of this thread and not many positive vibes going around.

Edited by GoWings1905

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It has the potential and likelihood of being $2.5 million for a player that produced all of eight points last season. Tomas Jurco scored eight goals alone in about 15 fewer games than Cleary and was a big reason why the Red Wings made the playoffs at all. So if your argument is that this deal is somehow a bargain for Cleary, I completely disagree.

Cleary got his chance last season to go out with his head held high at the expense of the Red Wings MVP. There's plenty to be upset about.

Cleary isn't blocking Jurco from playing in the NHL. Even without Cleary, it is pretty obvious he'll be in the AHL to start the season. Alfie returning would have us at 13 forwards not counting Cleary. Cleary and Andersson are gonna be in a dog fight to try to avoid being the 13th and 14th forwards. There are 12 other forwards VERY unlikely to give up a permanent spot to either. It is better to have Cleary taking up a healthy scratch than Jurco, don't you think?

A returning Alfie has more impact on where Jurco starts the season. If Alfie decides he can't play, Jurco will have his shot to win a roster spot. Just like Cleary. If Alfie comes back, Jurco will be the first call up. If he makes an immediate impact, he'll no doubt stick around.

Cleary for one year is a low risk signing. Who cares what the salary is? The cap space was there, and Holland felt he owed him. That's a stand up move whether we agree with it or not. If Cleary is in the lineup, he has to earn his way there. He'll only take a job from a kid if he earns it. In the mean time, if he does in fact have a bounce back season, that is fantastic for us. If he struggles like last year, he won't play. It's really that simple.

It's either give Cleary a contract or give Landon the spot. No offence to him, but nobody seems to high on him anymore. He is likely Emmerton 2.0. At least if Cleary can have a bounce back season, it gives the team a shot of having a playoff warrior on the team to do the dirty work. He was important to the team in the 2013 playoffs while having a rough, injured year. A healthy Cleary come playoff time could be a great thing. If not? It's just a one year contract that does nothing to hurt the team.

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It has the potential and likelihood of being $2.5 million for a player that produced all of eight points last season. Tomas Jurco scored eight goals alone in about 15 fewer games than Cleary and was a big reason why the Red Wings made the playoffs at all. If your argument is that this deal is somehow a bargain for Cleary, I completely disagree. Brendan Morrow and Dany Heatley got less money than Cleary too, so there's two examples of (better) veteran players that were more affordable than Cleary.

Cleary got his chance last season to go out with his head held high (a mistake a year ago too, no less) at the expense of the Red Wings MVP. There's plenty to be upset about. Hence, 24 pages of this thread and not many positive vibes going around.

I don't like the signing, but I don't think money is really worth complaining about. Last year when Cleary signed at 1.75 mill it was definitely less than what he would have made elsewhere. It was also less than we offered him earlier (2 mill I think). He did this because we were against the cap by the time signed. 2.5 is partly paying for last year's salary I think. This year we are not going to be close to the cap and the 1.5 mill cap hit won't matter. The 1 mill bonus will count against next year's cap - a year when we'll have Mzasek, Mantha, Sproul, and maybe others at low caphit - so it won't matter.

The reason to get mad about this signing is because he showed himself as a very ineffective player last year and he takes a roster spot.

P.S. Holland said specifically that Cleary would have to beat someone out for a spot and would be a good insurance (paraphrase - I forget exact words.) I still feel like there's a good chance that doesn't play 10 games. If he does play more than 10 games then hopefully it is because the Dan Cleary of old is magically (or medically) back. I'm okay with those 2 scenarios.

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I don't like the signing, but I don't think money is really worth complaining about. Last year when Cleary signed at 1.75 mill it was definitely less than what he would have made elsewhere. It was also less than we offered him earlier (2 mill I think). He did this because we were against the cap by the time signed. 2.5 is partly paying for last year's salary I think. This year we are not going to be close to the cap and the 1.5 mill cap hit won't matter. The 1 mill bonus will count against next year's cap - a year when we'll have Mzasek, Mantha, Sproul, and maybe others at low caphit - so it won't matter.

The reason to get mad about this signing is because he showed himself as a very ineffective player last year and he takes a roster spot.

P.S. Holland said specifically that Cleary would have to beat someone out for a spot and would be a good insurance (paraphrase - I forget exact words.) I still feel like there's a good chance that doesn't play 10 games. If he does play more than 10 games then hopefully it is because the Dan Cleary of old is magically (or medically) back. I'm okay with those 2 scenarios.

Sammy, toots, and Bert are gone, what more do u want from poor Holland? Total tomfoolery?

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Sammy, toots, and Bert are gone, what more do u want from poor Holland? Total tomfoolery?

Not only do I want Total Tomfoolery , but I demand Utter Shenanigans along with, dare I say, The Old Razzle Dazzle. "Real Fans" would expect nothing less.

P.S. Franzen is lazy and he sucks.

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:28 PM

Hope that he will crack the Wings roster next season. He seems to be mature enough this season.

But Holland can resign Cleary and Samuelsson, so I'll try to be patient

That's what I said two months ago in Mantha thread...

es. If Mantha doesn't make the team out of camp it's because Holland has offered contracts to Bertuzzi, Cleary, Sammy, Jason Williams, Maltby, and Hartigan.

It'll have nothing to do with Mantha not quite being ready.

Holy s*** this rhetoric is getting old.

That's what I got in reply.

If it was some KHL team, people would think that this is either otkat (when a player illegally pays part of his salary to coach/manager to get roster spot), or blat (when a player is a friend or relative to coach/manager/someone who pays for the team).

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