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Wings re-sign Cleary $1.5 mill + $1mill in game bonuses



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#521 GoWings1905

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:15 AM

 

There is thread after thread of people absolutely bashing Holland and saying he needs to go, but I haven't read a single post saying that Babcock needs to be fired. There are some putting him down, but not like Holland. But to be fair I dont read every post in every thread.

 

I 100% agree with you that Holland is responsible for the roster, my point wasn't that Babcock deserves blame (I get why they signed Cleary, a promise was made last year, and the Wings kept their word). The point I was trying to make is that people are so quick to jump down Hollands throat in comparison to others because that seems to be the thing to do right now.

 

In all seriousness, my apologies for circumventing the profanity filter. I have seen people do it in a number of threads and I thought it was allowed.

 

I think the difference between the two is Babcock has taken Holland's makeshift/transitional/mediocre/insert your preferred term rosters and kept them competitive. Babs certainly has his faults, but how many coaches get last year's version of the Red Wings into the playoffs at all given the circumstances? I have gotten on Babs in the past for his stubbornness and certain personnel decisions, though in reality he has done exceptional work and last season was probably his best coaching job to date. 

 

I don't want to turn this into another bash Holland thread, but I think the track record since 2009 speaks for itself. That's why the general manager has taken more heat than the head coach. Babs can only coach up the players he's given so much. 


 
 
"To whom much is given, much is expected."
 
 

 

 

 

 


#522 kliq

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 07:43 PM

 

I think the difference between the two is Babcock has taken Holland's makeshift/transitional/mediocre/insert your preferred term rosters and kept them competitive. Babs certainly has his faults, but how many coaches get last year's version of the Red Wings into the playoffs at all given the circumstances? I have gotten on Babs in the past for his stubbornness and certain personnel decisions, though in reality he has done exceptional work and last season was probably his best coaching job to date.

 

Thank you :) that's exactly my point. You may not agree with everything I have said, but your view on what some fans are saying, is the point I am trying to make.

 

A large chunk of Red Wings fans hate the fact they we are currently going through a re-build, and have a hard time accepting that we are not currently cup contenders. They look at everything Holland does under a microscope, and when he does something they do not agree with (ie. Cleary signing, Quincy signing, Legwand trade) they call for his head. While Babcock who overall people are happy with right now, may have the same opinions as Holland, but at the end of the day only gets a few people slightly disagreeing/mad at him, never the outrage that is currently being pointed at Holland, nor do I think he should. Babcock has done one heck of a job in Detroit, especially last year with all the injuries.

 

I fully realize that Holland is the GM, Babcock is the coach, and the roster is Holland's responsibility, but my point is that people are overly critical of Holland right now due to the re-build.

 

The only thing I disagree with you on is your verbiage of "makeshift/transitional/mediocre/insert your preferred term rosters and kept them competitive" as I look at what Holland has been doing a re-build, but one in where he is maintaining competitiveness (please don't mistaken competitiveness with contending) during it, rather then doing an Edmonton and getting rid of everyone. IMO a much smarter way to do it.



#523 number9

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 09:37 PM

 

Thank you :) that's exactly my point. You may not agree with everything I have said, but your view on what some fans are saying, is the point I am trying to make.

 

A large chunk of Red Wings fans hate the fact they we are currently going through a re-build, and have a hard time accepting that we are not currently cup contenders. They look at everything Holland does under a microscope, and when he does something they do not agree with (ie. Cleary signing, Quincy signing, Legwand trade) they call for his head. While Babcock who overall people are happy with right now, may have the same opinions as Holland, but at the end of the day only gets a few people slightly disagreeing/mad at him, never the outrage that is currently being pointed at Holland, nor do I think he should. Babcock has done one heck of a job in Detroit, especially last year with all the injuries.

 

I fully realize that Holland is the GM, Babcock is the coach, and the roster is Holland's responsibility, but my point is that people are overly critical of Holland right now due to the re-build.

 

The only thing I disagree with you on is your verbiage of "makeshift/transitional/mediocre/insert your preferred term rosters and kept them competitive" as I look at what Holland has been doing a re-build, but one in where he is maintaining competitiveness (please don't mistaken competitiveness with contending) during it, rather then doing an Edmonton and getting rid of everyone. IMO a much smarter way to do it.

 

The problem I have is I think you're both grossly underestimating how much Babcock influences the roster. He's routinely expressed his desire to have Cleary on the team, he had words with Weiss before he gave his stamp of approval on signing him, etc. etc.

 

Ken and Babs have always expressed that they have a great working relationship and go to one another for input and advice. Which I assume means mostly Holland going to Babcock for opinions on players. To think that Babcock does not have heavy say on his roster comes off to me as a little naive. Holland very much had his own opinion, and his word is final, but his decisions are also very much influenced by what he's told by his scouts and coaches.



#524 kliq

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Posted 10 September 2014 - 11:05 PM

 

The problem I have is I think you're both grossly underestimating how much Babcock influences the roster. He's routinely expressed his desire to have Cleary on the team, he had words with Weiss before he gave his stamp of approval on signing him, etc. etc.

 

Ken and Babs have always expressed that they have a great working relationship and go to one another for input and advice. Which I assume means mostly Holland going to Babcock for opinions on players. To think that Babcock does not have heavy say on his roster comes off to me as a little naive. Holland very much had his own opinion, and his word is final, but his decisions are also very much influenced by what he's told by his scouts and coaches.

 

I 100% agree with you.



#525 toby91_ca

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 10:48 AM

I have no doubt that Babcock and Holland chat now and then about potential player moves and Babcock provides input, etc.  However, beyond that, I have no idea how much influence Babcock actually has on the players that make it to the team at the end of the day.  He may have a lot of influence, he may have very little.  The fact of the matter is, no one on this site knows how much or how little influence he has either (unless you or someone you are close with is part of the GM's office).

 

Same could be said about final roster.  Typically the GM brings in the players and then it's the coaches job to pick the final roster from that overall group of players and then also make call up decisions when needed, etc.  The GM is obviously going to have some input in that process, but again, how little or how much is likely not known by most.



#526 number9

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 02:36 PM

I have no doubt that Babcock and Holland chat now and then about potential player moves and Babcock provides input, etc.  However, beyond that, I have no idea how much influence Babcock actually has on the players that make it to the team at the end of the day.  He may have a lot of influence, he may have very little.  The fact of the matter is, no one on this site knows how much or how little influence he has either (unless you or someone you are close with is part of the GM's office).

 

Same could be said about final roster.  Typically the GM brings in the players and then it's the coaches job to pick the final roster from that overall group of players and then also make call up decisions when needed, etc.  The GM is obviously going to have some input in that process, but again, how little or how much is likely not known by most.

 

You can try and minimize my point all you want. Of course none of us really know the inner workings of the Red Wings organization. But to think that a GM doesn't ask his head coach what he wants, who he wants, and who he could do without, and that, that doesn't heavily influence the players he chases is kind of insane.

 

Obama might be at the head of the Military, but when there's a battle to be fought he doesn't just go buy some tanks and send them, he asks his general(s) what they need/want and acts accordingly.

 

Holland and all his scouts can sit down and agree that the team needs more 4th line fighter types... but if Babcock won't play a guy like that then there's no sense in signing one despite what you and your personnel tell yourselves.

 

It'd be like commissioning a sculptor to make a work of art for you, and then giving him paints and oils to work with. The guy might be a real good artist, but that piece is gonna suck.

 

If I'm Holland, Babs has a ton of sway in my personnel choices. Now his needs/wants may not be feasible due to availability of players, financial concerns, and my long-term vision for the team, but I'd do my best to cater to my coach within those limitations.

 

EDIT: Managment also consults Datsyuk and Zetterberg on players as well. Fischer mentioned recently that after training camp they're going to hear boths opinions on Mantha. Holland is not some insane puppeteer. There's a giant organization of guidance and opinions beneath him. 


Edited by number9, 11 September 2014 - 02:51 PM.


#527 kliq

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Posted 11 September 2014 - 10:59 PM

 

EDIT: Managment also consults Datsyuk and Zetterberg on players as well. Fischer mentioned recently that after training camp they're going to hear boths opinions on Mantha. Holland is not some insane puppeteer. There's a giant organization of guidance and opinions beneath him. 

 

Agreed, but I would add that there is probably opinions above him as well. I would be shocked if Ilitch didnt give his 2 cents every once in a while. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way calling Ilitch a Jerry Jones, or a guy who doesn't allow his people to do their jobs, but like you said, its a giant organization with ALOT of people.







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