Confused on the direction of this team going forward

[number9 3,297]

Again, though, the post said 'have' and 'is.' It did not say 'had' and 'was.'

So, just for full clarification, please list the players on the Wings roster that you consider to be elite currently.

Kronwall isn't elite because he has never been one of the top 2-3 D-men in the league.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still elite because at one point they were the top 2-3 in the league, until they declined to where they weren't, but sometimes they can still play at that level. Thus they are elite.

What aren't you following?

[Euro_Twins 4,475]

Kronwall isn't elite because he has never been one of the top 2-3 D-men in the league.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still elite because at one point they were the top 2-3 in the league, until they declined to where they weren't, but sometimes they can still play at that level. Thus they are elite.

What aren't you following?

When z and d are healthy they are most certainly elite. But you can't say the top 2-3 players in the league are elite only. Z and d are no longer top 2-3. You have stamkos Crosby Malkin Tavares toews who are all in their prime.

[number9 3,297]

When z and d are healthy they are most certainly elite. But you can't say the top 2-3 players in the league are elite only. Z and d are no longer top 2-3. You have stamkos Crosby Malkin Tavares toews who are all in their prime.

I was trying to be sarcastic, but yes I agree. I think Degrass backed himself into a corner by claiming that only 2-3 players are elite at their position. Heck I think there's at least 5 "elite"goalies in this league. And since there's 30 starting goalies in this league that means that theirs 60 top pairing D-men, and I believe at least 6 or 7 could be considered elite. And When it comes to forwards there's even more. I don't think the term elite should ever be pigeon-holes into one specific number. Personally I consider D and Z very elite, Kronwall no. Very proficient, but not a game-changer.

[number9 3,297]

I'll say this, Hedman, Giordano, Vlasic, and Niskanen all finished higher in Norris voting than Kronwall, OEL, and Subban this year. I thought that was insulting to those 3 players as I believe they all played better than the first 4.

[Guest DeGraa55]

I was trying to be sarcastic, but yes I agree. I think Degrass backed himself into a corner by claiming that only 2-3 players are elite at their position. Heck I think there's at least 5 "elite"goalies in this league. And since there's 30 starting goalies in this league that means that theirs 60 top pairing D-men, and I believe at least 6 or 7 could be considered elite. And When it comes to forwards there's even more. I don't think the term elite should ever be pigeon-holes into one specific number. Personally I consider D and Z very elite, Kronwall no. Very proficient, but not a game-changer.

I'm not saying only 2-3 are. It varies year to year. But for that era there was 3 elite goalies the ones I listed. They were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

[number9 3,297]

NHL.com just listed Calle as their #2 prospect behind Forsberg *sigh*

I'm not saying only 2-3 are. It varies year to year. But for that era there was 3 elite goalies the ones I listed. They were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Except you said exactly that

You said it WAS Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, NOW it's Henrik and Quick

[rick zombo 3,739]

NHL.com just listed Calle as their #2 prospect behind Forsberg *sigh*

So what? Hockey's Future has Detroit ranked as the 3rd best organization in terms of prospects right now (rankings that were made after Jarnkrok was traded). For the record, Nashville are ranked 14th.

Jarnkrok is thd #2 prospect on a team that's inferior to Detroit in terms of prospects.

[number9 3,297]

So what? Hockey's Future has Detroit ranked as the 3rd best organization in terms of prospects right now (rankings that were made after Jarnkrok was traded). For the record, Nashville are ranked 14th.

Jarnkrok is thd #2 prospect on a team that's inferior to Detroit in terms of prospects.

I know, I'm just going to be upset if Jarnkrok really does become an elite talent.

[Guest DeGraa55]

NHL.com just listed Calle as their #2 prospect behind Forsberg *sigh*

Except you said exactly that

You said it WAS Roy, Brodeur, Hasek, NOW it's Henrik and Quick

Yes for that era. Tell me who else is in that class? It's just those three.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

I know, I'm just going to be upset if Jarnkrok really does become an elite talent.

He was never projected to be elite. Zetterberg type game, Filppula level performance.

[number9 3,297]

Uhhhh

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

You state that now the elite are Henrik and Quick. 2 goalies.

I'm not saying only 2-3 are. It varies year to year. But for that era there was 3 elite goalies the ones I listed. They were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Then you state that there's not just 2-3, effectively contradicting yourself.

Yes for that era. Tell me who else is in that class? It's just those three.

I thought I was being very clear. Hope that's a bit clearer for you.

He was never projected to be elite. Zetterberg type game, Filppula level performance.

For a long time around here he was being heralded as our next Zberg or at least something closer to that than Filppula was or is.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Uhhhh

You state that now the elite are Henrik and Quick. 2 goalies.

Then you state that there's not just 2-3, effectively contradicting yourself.

I thought I was being very clear. Hope that's a bit clearer for you.

For a long time around here he was being heralded as our next Zberg or at least something closer to that than Filppula was or is.

There could be 30 elite goalies if they all had 1gaa but does that happen? No. So there isn't a god Damn set standard of 1 or 2 or 3. It changes based on who actually plays at an elite level.

I don't understand what's so difficult to understand. It pretty simple.

Edited August 11, 2014 by DeGraa55

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Uhhhh

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

You state that now the elite are Henrik and Quick. 2 goalies.

I'm not saying only 2-3 are. It varies year to year. But for that era there was 3 elite goalies the ones I listed. They were clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Then you state that there's not just 2-3, effectively contradicting yourself.

Yes for that era. Tell me who else is in that class? It's just those three.

I thought I was being very clear. Hope that's a bit clearer for you.

He was never projected to be elite. Zetterberg type game, Filppula level performance.

For a long time around here he was being heralded as our next Zberg or at least something closer to that than Filppula was or is.

I'm not talking fans. Fans go overboard. I'm talking scouts.

[ozone923 31]

I trust that Holland and co. saw something that was disposable in Jarnkrok. Theres a reason theyve held so strongly with the others, including Jurco. And one cannot trust the 'editors' at NHL.com to make a list of groceries let alone top prospects. Keep in mind that the highly touted Forsberg has yet to prove he can play the North American game as well.

What I'm trying to say is I hope to god that Jarnkrok doesn't pan out.

[T.Low 1,011]

I trust that Holland and co. saw something that was disposable in Jarnkrok. Theres a reason theyve held so strongly with the others, including Jurco. And one cannot trust the 'editors' at NHL.com to make a list of groceries let alone top prospects. Keep in mind that the highly touted Forsberg has yet to prove he can play the North American game as well.

What I'm trying to say is I hope to god that Jarnkrok doesn't pan out.

Fwiw, The weekend the Griffins came to town, I noticed that every time someone said "Holy Crap, whose that guy?", it was Pulkinen. The only time Jarnkroks name came up was when someone would ask, "So, which one is Jarnkrok, where's he?". Just saying...

I did make a comment on lgw regarding how Jarnkrok was everywhere, then later I realized I was thinking of Pulkinen, I just got the names mixed up.

Edited August 11, 2014 by T.Low

[TheXym 2,606]

So the Jarnkrok hype was actually a brilliant smokescreen to protect the preferred prospects? I can see it now if Jarnkrok ends up a bust - Ken Holland lights up a cigar, and in his best George Peppard voice cackles "I love it when a plan comes together!"

[number9 3,297]

There could be 30 elite goalies if they all had 1gaa but does that happen? No. So there isn't a god Damn set standard of 1 or 2 or 3. It changes based on who actually plays at an elite level.

I don't understand what's so difficult to understand. It pretty simple.

Dude, I'm not debating you about how many elite goalies there could be. I agree that it is fluid and changes. And have said nothing contrary to that. Quit trying to change the subject and make this about something else.

I quoted and highlighted your statements and your refusing to address them now.

You said "NOW IT'S HENRIK AND QUICK". Thats TWO goalies. I agree that, that number can change, but I'm not talking about whether it can or not. I'm talking about how you stated you believe there to be 2 elite goalies at the moment... then contradicted yourself later on by saying "I'M NOT SAYING ONLY 2-3 ARE". Keyword: ARE. Not was or were. And you specifically said that in a reply to a post I made about the current league.

Why don't you address those bolded quotes that you yourself made, and that I have now quoted multiple time, instead of trying to argue a different point about the number of elites changing year to year (Of course they do).

[Guest DeGraa55]

Dude, I'm not debating you about how many elite goalies there could be. I agree that it is fluid and changes. And have said nothing contrary to that. Quit trying to change the subject and make this about something else.

I quoted and highlighted your statements and your refusing to address them now.

You said "NOW IT'S HENRIK AND QUICK". Thats TWO goalies. I agree that, that number can change, but I'm not talking about whether it can or not. I'm talking about how you stated you believe there to be 2 elite goalies at the moment... then contradicted yourself later on by saying "I'M NOT SAYING ONLY 2-3 ARE". Keyword: ARE. Not was or were. And you specifically said that in a reply to a post I made about the current league.

Why don't you address those bolded quotes that you yourself made, and that I have now quoted multiple time, instead of trying to argue a different point about the number of elites changing year to year (Of course they do).

Go be an English teacher if you really want to critique someone you god dman grammar nazi.

I'm on an iPhone does your old ass know what that is? It auto corrects half my s*** an do frankly don't have the time to check every god damn thing I type. So shove the are, were and whatever else up your ass.

[number9 3,297]

Go be an English teacher if you really want to critique someone you god dman grammar nazi.

I'm on an iPhone does your old ass know what that is? It auto corrects half my s*** an do frankly don't have the time to check every god damn thing I type. So shove the are, were and whatever else up your ass.

? Then why wouldn't you just say it was an auto correct error from the beginning? I couldn't care less about your grammar...

Instead you skirted the issue in multiple responses, and are now claiming your phone auto-corrected the word are? Yeah ok bud.

PS in our last "engagement" in another thread YOU corrected MY grammar... so I'd watch the grammar nazi insults my friend. I'll go quote it if you don't remember.

[Guest DeGraa55]

? Then why wouldn't you just say it was an auto correct error from the beginning? I couldn't care less about your grammar...

Instead you skirted the issue in multiple responses, and are now claiming your phone auto-corrected the word are? Yeah ok bud.

PS in our last "engagement" in another thread YOU corrected MY grammar... so I'd watch the grammar nazi insults my friend. I'll go quote it if you don't remember.

I prolly did. I couldn't care less though.

But you need to stop being anal about stuff. Just because I used to goalies as an example doesn't mean they're they only two. So I might say 2 then 2-3 then 2-7 depending on the year. Youre picking a fight to pick a fight.

[number9 3,297]

I'm not talking fans. Fans go overboard. I'm talking scouts.

“He’s probably the best prospect in our organization overall. Whenever he makes the transition overseas, he’s going to be really exciting to watch at the NHL level.” — Red Wings director of player development Jiri Fischer (December 2012)

He's been compared to Zetterberg by multiple people within our organization and Zberg is the only player he's ever been compared to by the Red Wings. They've also never pegged him as say, a probable 3rd liner, or probable 2nd liner. From our understanding from the scouts it was always the sky could be the limit with this kid. Now did that change at some point making him expendable? Sure. But I personally doubt it. He was traded just when he was starting to dominate the NA game in GR.

I was personally fine with the trade at the time. I wanted to see the streak continue. But now that Leggy is gone and Jarnkrok is gone and the PO's are over, I feel a bit stung by the trade. The Red Wings will be fine without Calle but I'll continue to follow him and his career hoping that he really does dud and the wings knew what they were doing. But everyone who bashes his talent all of the sudden I think are just being homers.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Hes probably the best prospect in our organization overall. Whenever he makes the transition overseas, hes going to be really exciting to watch at the NHL level. Red Wings director of player development Jiri Fischer (December 2012)

He's been compared to Zetterberg by multiple people within our organization and Zberg is the only player he's ever been compared to by the Red Wings. They've also never pegged him as say, a probable 3rd liner, or probable 2nd liner. From our understanding from the scouts it was always the sky could be the limit with this kid. Now did that change at some point making him expendable? Sure. But I personally doubt it. He was traded just when he was starting to dominate the NA game in GR.

I was personally fine with the trade at the time. I wanted to see the streak continue. But now that Leggy is gone and Jarnkrok is gone and the PO's are over, I feel a bit stung by the trade. The Red Wings will be fine without Calle but I'll continue to follow him and his career hoping that he really does dud and the wings knew what they were doing. But everyone who bashes his talent all of the sudden I think are just being homers.

Keep in mind, Fischer's job is to pump the tires of these kids and sell Detroit's prospects in general.

In fact everyone but Holland seem to do this. Kind of like good cop bad cop.

[number9 3,297]

I prolly did. I couldn't care less though.

But you need to stop being anal about stuff. Just because I used to goalies as an example doesn't mean they're they only two. So I might say 2 then 2-3 then 2-7 depending on the year. Youre picking a fight to pick a fight.

So you don't find it hypocritical to rudely correct someone else's grammar and then use terrible grammar yourself? If you made a grammar mistake that ALTERS YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT there is no shame in correcting yourself.

But now you're deviating from the auto-correct excuse huh?

So you made a quick off the cuff comment, that if you had really thought out, you may have adjusted it to 2-7?

If the above is true wouldn't it just have been easier to say something like "my bad, those were just the first two to pop into my head" at the beginning instead of dragging your feet and throwing around insults?

Keep in mind, Fischer's job is to pump the tires of these kids and sell Detroit's prospects in general.

In fact everyone but Holland seem to do this. Kind of like good cop bad cop.

So then nothing we can believe is true?

Mantha probably blows? But only if we trade him right?

[kipwinger 8,518]

Keep in mind, Fischer's job is to pump the tires of these kids and sell Detroit's prospects in general.

In fact everyone but Holland seem to do this. Kind of like good cop bad cop.

Yeah, I'm not sure about this Fischer comment. His job is to oversee the development of all the organization's prospects. Not sell them to anyone. They've already been drafted. Who would he be selling them to? Fans?

[number9 3,297]

Lets also remember that Calle had 36 pts in 57 games with GR... with most all those points coming in the later half of games right right before the trade.

On a crappier farm team he proceeded to put up 9 pts in 6 games, warranting a call up.

On a terrible NSH team he then put up 9 pts in 12 games. (Zberg did not put up those pt %s at 23 or even 22 in Sweden)

You can argue that depth was worse so he got more oppurtunity, but linemates were also worse, so that kind of evens out.

Everything points to a very good 22 year old C. Again I still liked the trade, but I hope I don't kick myself in 2 or 3 seasons.