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Confused on the direction of this team going forward


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#61 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 06:58 PM

 

If you look at my line-up (which was done in a pretty light-hearted fashion by the way) it's clear that I was looking 3-4 years down the road. By then, Ericsson's deal will be up and he'll be passed over for younger/better players. And Helm? Let's just just say, with his injury history,  I'll be surprised if he can still walk in 3-4 years

In 3-4 years, Helm will be skating circles around a pile of crows for LGW to feast upon ;)

 

I hope he plays 82 games next season and everyone forgets the past 2 years.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#62 DeGraa55

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 10:56 PM

In 3-4 years, Helm will be skating circles around a pile of crows for LGW to feast upon ;)
 
I hope he plays 82 games next season and everyone forgets the past 2 years.


Everyone hopes he does. But the FACTS are he is injury prone. Can that change? Yes. And I believe everyone hopes it does. But you can't fault us who use facts and logic and draw a conclusion that he won't be playing 82 games....

#63 rick zombo

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:14 PM

In 3-4 years, Helm will be skating circles around a pile of crows for LGW to feast upon ;)

 

I hope he plays 82 games next season and everyone forgets the past 2 years.

 

I think we’d all love that. 


"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#64 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:18 PM

Everyone hopes he does. But the FACTS are he is injury prone. Can that change? Yes. And I believe everyone hopes it does. But you can't fault us who use facts and logic and draw a conclusion that he won't be playing 82 games....

He very well could play 82 games next year, and so could the also injury prone Zetterberg.  Both had back issues, both are apparently on the mend.  Helm had a rash of injuries all in a row which sometimes happens.  When you have a serious injury and then come back, your body sometimes doesn't transition too well.  Sort of like jumping on a treadmill that's going full speed...  Either way, I'm gonna stay positive on both of those guys as they're 2 of my 3 favorite players.  With Helm as well, he was concussed on a dirty hit by none other than Jared Cowen, so we can't really use the injury prone card on that one, or we'd have to use it on Dats as well, who was also concussed by that meathead Cowen.  Last year sucked terribly for injuries.  All I can say is I hope that changes this year and we get to watch our best players every night.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#65 Echolalia

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 03:28 PM

If Helm can skate at least 65 games I'll be happy. I can be okay with an early season injury, either in training camp or the first week or two into the season. He also plays a reckless game so maybe another injury somewhere during the season. I don't think this is an unrealistic hope.

#66 rick zombo

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:28 PM

He very well could play 82 games next year, and so could the also injury prone Zetterberg.  Both had back issues, both are apparently on the mend.  Helm had a rash of injuries all in a row which sometimes happens.  When you have a serious injury and then come back, your body sometimes doesn't transition too well.  Sort of like jumping on a treadmill that's going full speed...  Either way, I'm gonna stay positive on both of those guys as they're 2 of my 3 favorite players.  With Helm as well, he was concussed on a dirty hit by none other than Jared Cowen, so we can't really use the injury prone card on that one, or we'd have to use it on Dats as well, who was also concussed by that meathead Cowen.  Last year sucked terribly for injuries.  All I can say is I hope that changes this year and we get to watch our best players every night.


I can dig your positivity.

Also, I almost forgot about Cowan. That dude needs to be dealt with early this season.
"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#67 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:48 PM

I can dig your positivity.

Also, I almost forgot about Cowan. That dude needs to be dealt with early this season.

Glad to hear.  I'm about done with all the negative whirlwind around Cleary and Quincey.  I'm looking forward to the future of this team with Mantha, Larkin, Sproul, Ouellet, Mrazek and so on, and looking forward to as much Helm, Z and Dats as possible and for Weiss to silence the naysayers with a solid 50 point season and Smith getting his real shot and showing everyone that he's legit.  All the positives are being overshadowed by a few negatives.  Sure it was a terrible offseason again, but we also had a 2nd draft in a row that saw us get not 1 guy under 6 feet.  Once this team injects more of the top prospects into the line up and the arena is built downtown and the city is rejuvenated, guys are gonna wish they signed here the past few seasons and people will line up to play with the list of guys above....you know, aside from the guys who went to play for other teams to be closer to family and play with a good friend and all that.  Kenny can't control those things and I don't blame him for any of those.  Next season is pretty far from over seeing as it hasn't started yet.  Lots of time to find success.

 

Confused on the direction of the team moving forward?  Bad bridge deals to hold the kids back, but once we get the kids, they're ready and f*** me they're good!  I guess a little extra time in Blashill's hands isn't the worst thing that can happen.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#68 krsmith17

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:58 AM

I personally love the direction this team is going. I think the plan for a few years has been to get younger, due in part to the salary cap, as well as bigger, evident by our past few drafts. We have a lot to get excited about as fans. There is going to be a ton of talent coming up over the next few years, and a lot of these kids have the size and strength to go along with the speed and skill. Sure, we have struck out on the past 2 of 3 free agency periods, and we haven't really done anything at the trade deadline, but I do believe there is a plan in place and Kenny sees the bigger picture. Unlike most fans that are very eager for the quick fix, Ken is very patient and knows that it's going to take time to get back to the top, he know what it takes to build a contender, and doing so without ever having to tank is pretty remarkable.



#69 rick zombo

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 08:21 AM

Tatar knows what direction this team is going.......

 

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#70 Dabura

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 11:59 AM

I personally love the direction this team is going. I think the plan for a few years has been to get younger, due in part to the salary cap, as well as bigger, evident by our past few drafts. We have a lot to get excited about as fans. There is going to be a ton of talent coming up over the next few years, and a lot of these kids have the size and strength to go along with the speed and skill. Sure, we have struck out on the past 2 of 3 free agency periods, and we haven't really done anything at the trade deadline, but I do believe there is a plan in place and Kenny sees the bigger picture. Unlike most fans that are very eager for the quick fix, Ken is very patient and knows that it's going to take time to get back to the top, he know what it takes to build a contender, and doing so without ever having to tank is pretty remarkable.

 

I might disagree with the notion that "it has to be this way, and we just have to be patient, and that's exactly what Ken Holland is doing, being patient and keeping his eye on the big prize no matter what." I think that's true, but I also think what makes retooling so hard is, in theory, you've already got a pretty competitive team, one that's probably only a key piece or two away from being a true contender. For that reason, you don't shut the door to possible quick fixes and shots in the arm and all those temptations. If something good enough comes along, you go for it.

 

I'd say that's where Kenny tends to get into trouble, at least with the fans. We say, "Well, it's either win now or wait. We can't have it both ways." And Kenny himself says time and time again that free agency is no longer Where It's At. But, truth is, it's sort of fluid. It has to be. The main priority is building up an army of very good young players to surround and complement our core, but, as we're retooling and not rebuilding, we should always be open to the possibility of acquiring a big-time player and switching gears to Win Now. We should be playing both sides. That way, if we strike out in free agency, it's ok - we're still following "The Plan."

 

Not that this is necessarily standard protocol for a retooling team. We're in sort of a unique position: we have to rebuild in the sense that we didn't have an especially good group of futures a few years ago and that needed to be addressed, but we're still making the playoffs and we might be a solid top-four defenseman and/or a 35-goal-scorer away from making some real noise in the weak Eastern Conference.

 

It's a tough balancing act.

 

Of course...let's be completely honest. If Kenny could have his way, this youth thing probably wouldn't be happening the way it's starting to unfold. Oh, sure, we'd be building up a good pipeline, but we'd have Suter, we'd have Parise, we'd have Samuelsson and Bertuzzi and Cleary and Sami Salo and Ray Whitney. The team would be a veteran team for as long as possible. One could definitely argue that the only reason we're going young is that the universe is forcing it to happen through incredible injury woes and baffling free agency strike-outs.

 

I guess what I'm saying in all this is that the Wings' situation is a tricky one, and that Holland doesn't necessarily know what he's doing at all times but I don't necessarily fault him for that. Going from having been a legit contender for two straight decades to knowing 1) you kinda need to suck a little for a few years so you can get some better picks than you're used to and 2) oh, but at the same time, you're probably only a good defenseman and a good forward away from being a contender again --- that's tough. "Winning Now" is in this organization's blood. So, I do give credit to Kenny for walking that tightrope and assembling an impressive prospect pool. But I do think the universe also deserves credit for "course correcting" here and there.

 

About our futures and young guns - I love them. I haven't always been very kind to them, but, maybe not unlike Kenny, I know that every day gone by is another day closer to a time when they're going to be The S***. (Or, at least, that's my belief and hope.) That's largely why I posed that question about what an elite 2017 Red Wings team might look like - we're starting to get an idea of what we have and how it might unfold and where it might take us. I worry about our D corps and what we're going to do about the 1C spot when Datsyuk is just a couple years shy of 40 and Zetterberg probably isn't up to snuff. People say Larkin, but the kid's gonna be a freshman in college next year; he's not going to be our top centerman in 2017.

 

But, the wingers? Man, there's the potential for some crazy-good depth at wing in a few years, especially if Z and D switch over to the side.

 

Nyquist and Tatar are probably good for 20+ goals right now, and they're not even in their prime years. I've gotta think Mantha will good for at least 20-25 goals a couple years from now, when he'll be all of 22 years old. Pulkkinen - pure goal-scorer. Jurco - goal-scorer, maybe a power-forward in the making. Athanasiou - goal-scorer with flash and size and amazing wheels. Janmark (who would probably be moved to the wing) - goal-scorer, radioactive.

 

If we could maybe swing Nyquist and Smith for Evander Kane, I would cry. Then we'd have the makings of one hell of a forward corps, like what Chicago and LA have right now.


Edited by Dabura, 30 July 2014 - 12:23 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#71 DickieDunn

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 10:00 AM

If they make a major move I'd rather it be for a top pairing d, especially a rh shot, or maybe a young high end center. They have a lot of young scoring wingers ready or nearly ready.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#72 Dabura

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:02 AM

If they make a major move I'd rather it be for a top pairing d, especially a rh shot, or maybe a young high end center. They have a lot of young scoring wingers ready or nearly ready.

 

Totally agree. I just mentioned Kane because, right now, he's one of the exceedingly few top-end players who's genuinely likely to be moved at some point in the next few years, and I think he has the potential to be one of the very best players in the world. Like I've said a couple times in recent weeks, the guy's produced like Patrick Kane had at his age (literally, the respective point totals are very close), and he's done it on an inferior team and with inferior linemates. I see him as a franchise player waiting to be plucked up by a team that actually knows what it's doing. There's nothing to say we couldn't be that team.

 

I'd rather get a right-shot top-pairing defenseman, sure. But who? We'll probably target Mike Green in free agency next summer or maybe at the trade deadline this season. I guess Petry might be an option. I don't much care for Boychuck. There've been some grumblings in Ducks Land that the Stoner signing might be "the final nail in the coffin" for Vatanen's future with the Ducks, but I don't really buy that. I think Sproul is a future all-star who could make a difference right now if sheltered on the third pairing with Ericsson and given lots of power play time. Backman might surprise everyone; he looked really good in his short stint with the Griffins.

 

Our situation at center is weird. Like I said, we look fairly deep right now, but I don't think we necessarily are. So, I agree that we'd be wise to look for a young high-end center, but I fear the urgency isn't going to be there until the eleventh hour or later.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#73 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 31 July 2014 - 11:17 AM

I personally love the direction this team is going. I think the plan for a few years has been to get younger, due in part to the salary cap, as well as bigger, evident by our past few drafts. We have a lot to get excited about as fans. There is going to be a ton of talent coming up over the next few years, and a lot of these kids have the size and strength to go along with the speed and skill. Sure, we have struck out on the past 2 of 3 free agency periods, and we haven't really done anything at the trade deadline, but I do believe there is a plan in place and Kenny sees the bigger picture. Unlike most fans that are very eager for the quick fix, Ken is very patient and knows that it's going to take time to get back to the top, he know what it takes to build a contender, and doing so without ever having to tank is pretty remarkable.

It also helps that we have the best scouts in the NHL.


"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#74 KATIEBARTHEDOOR24

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 09:47 PM

I don't see where all the confusion is coming from. A NEW season is fast approaching. This is Red Wings cock bobble. All the naysayers can leave or stay and watch as we take over the league once again.

GO WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
KOHARSKI, HAVE ANOTHER DONUT, YOU FAT PIG
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#75 number9

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Posted 01 August 2014 - 10:43 PM

I don't see where all the confusion is coming from. A NEW season is fast approaching. This is Red Wings cock bobble. All the naysayers can leave or stay and watch as we take over the league once again.

GO WINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

SHUN THE NON-BELIEVERS SHUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN



#76 kliq

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:42 AM

It also helps that we have the best scouts in the NHL.

 

Definitely! From a management perspective, it’s a team effort as well. You can have the best GM in the world, but if his assistants, scouts, coaches etc. are garbage, it doesn’t matter. With that being said, you can have the best the assistants, scouts, coaches etc. in the world, but if you have a GM (or owners) who don’t listen or care what they have to say, it doesn’t matter either.

 

I'm pretty happy with the way things are going. I'm just crossing my fingers that the kids can become upper tier/elite players while the vets (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall etc.) can still play at an elite level. I think they will, but only time will tell.



#77 number9

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 01:14 AM

The Wings definitely play to their advantage, and the biggest one is finding diamond in the rough young players AKA scouting. I have no problem with the organization exploiting this strength.



#78 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 10:53 AM

 

Definitely! From a management perspective, it’s a team effort as well. You can have the best GM in the world, but if his assistants, scouts, coaches etc. are garbage, it doesn’t matter. With that being said, you can have the best the assistants, scouts, coaches etc. in the world, but if you have a GM (or owners) who don’t listen or care what they have to say, it doesn’t matter either.

 

I'm pretty happy with the way things are going. I'm just crossing my fingers that the kids can become upper tier/elite players while the vets (Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall etc.) can still play at an elite level. I think they will, but only time will tell.

That's why it's good that the one thing we can never complain about is that Holland listens to his scouts.  Without that happening, we would never have had the Datsyuk's, Zetterberg's and Hampus Melen's.  Even while Holland is having a rough stretch and I'm no doubt not that happy with him along with most, he's still getting guys like Sheahan signed for under 1 mil, giving Tatar a very fair deal for both sides and drafting guys to play effectively in today's NHL.  Things aren't great at the moment for the Wings, but the future looks bright.  Like I said in another thread as well, once the kids take over the Wings and the new arena is built and rejuvenates Detroit, players in the NHL are going to wish they came to the Wings.  We'll have guys saying "I want to go to Detroit to play with Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Mantha, Sproul, Ouellet, Smith, Marchenko...."  They'll chose a contender over milking cows in Minnesota with their girlfriends family or whatever that crap was about with Farmer Suter and ******* Yeehaw Parise.

 

Edit:  Add Athaniesou to my list.  I have a good feeling about that kid.


Edited by Z Winged Dangler, 02 August 2014 - 10:55 AM.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#79 WingNut 25

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 12:29 PM

I no longer have faith in the organization's direction. Give the kids more playing time and start moving out worthless vets in any way you can (for whatever return you can get). Let the playoff streak die. Holding onto that is making this team stagnant. They aren't moving up or down.

Edited by WingNut 25, 02 August 2014 - 12:30 PM.


#80 kliq

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 07:55 PM

I no longer have faith in the organization's direction. Give the kids more playing time and start moving out worthless vets in any way you can (for whatever return you can get). Let the playoff streak die. Holding onto that is making this team stagnant. They aren't moving up or down.

 

We have 5 players over the age of 31.....Franzen (34), Zetterberg (33), Cleary (35), Kronwall (33) and Datsyuk (36) and 3 of those 5 are elite talents. Your statement makes it sound like our team is littered with older players who aren’t performing. We have two in Cleary and Franzen.







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