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Confused on the direction of this team going forward


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#81 DeGraa55

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:19 PM

 
We have 5 players over the age of 31.....Franzen (34), Zetterberg (33), Cleary (35), Kronwall (33) and Datsyuk (36) and 3 of those 5 are elite talents. Your statement makes it sound like our team is littered with older players who arent performing. We have two in Cleary and Franzen.


Kronwall elite? No. Elite is the best of the best too many people throw elite around too much.

#82 number9

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 11:56 PM

Kronwall elite? No. Elite is the best of the best too many people throw elite around too much.

 

Kronwall finished 13th in Norris voting this year. That means he's ranked higher than 168 NHL D regulars among the theoretical 180. And that's on a team that was severely injured the entire season, with a weak D, and a goalie in a down year. If elite to you is top 10, cool. But that's good enough to me to not split hairs about it...

 

 



#83 kliq

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:36 AM

 

Kronwall finished 13th in Norris voting this year. That means he's ranked higher than 168 NHL D regulars among the theoretical 180. And that's on a team that was severely injured the entire season, with a weak D, and a goalie in a down year. If elite to you is top 10, cool. But that's good enough to me to not split hairs about it...

 

 

 

Couldnt have said it better myself :)



#84 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:45 AM

 
Kronwall finished 13th in Norris voting this year. That means he's ranked higher than 168 NHL D regulars among the theoretical 180. And that's on a team that was severely injured the entire season, with a weak D, and a goalie in a down year. If elite to you is top 10, cool. But that's good enough to me to not split hairs about it...
 
 


To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

#85 kliq

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:12 AM

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

 

The word elite simply means "the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons." so bottom line, “what defines elite” is up for interpretation. Neither of us are wrong, just a different interpretation of the word. I think we can all agree he is pretty damn good lol.

 

My entire point with the original statement wasn’t that Kronwall was elite anyways, it was that our team isn’t filled with a ton of washed up veterans like one poster implied.


Edited by kliq, 03 August 2014 - 01:15 AM.


#86 number9

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:28 AM

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

 

 

I don't think anyone around here considers Kronwall #1 #2 or #3. And I think your being a bit unjustly argumentative thinking that anyone around here seriously would.  I don't think I've ever seen Kronwall ranked in the top5 around here. But you just assumed your definition of elite was the same as everyone else's right?



#87 wings4thecup06

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:10 AM

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

 

You can't really compare elite goalies to elite D men. For a start, there's like, 1/4th fewer goalies than D men. And I don't think you could say also that it has to be top 2 or top 3. Because if you went with just the top 2, and you've got Brodeur, Hasek and Roy, one of them therefore has to be classified as not elite right? 

 

Top 10 for the D men is probably more realistic because there are alot more of them for starters and with that being the case, there will be a few more elite players. Just the way it works. Altbough really, how many elite D men there are is all relative to the talent currently playing in the league. If there was a sudden influx of top elite D men talent into the NHL, you could easily make it top 20. 

 

As for the direction of this team, (back on topic) I think we're doing fine. This summer though has seemed to drag on and on, can it just be October already? 


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#88 Dabura

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:04 PM

I'd rather get a right-shot top-pairing defenseman, sure. But who? We'll probably target Mike Green in free agency next summer or maybe at the trade deadline this season. I guess Petry might be an option. I don't much care for Boychuck. There've been some grumblings in Ducks Land that the Stoner signing might be "the final nail in the coffin" for Vatanen's future with the Ducks, but I don't really buy that. I think Sproul is a future all-star who could make a difference right now if sheltered on the third pairing with Ericsson and given lots of power play time. Backman might surprise everyone; he looked really good in his short stint with the Griffins.

 

Another name I might add to this list: Ryan Ellis. Preds fans seem to believe it's pretty much a given that he's going to be moved.


Also, maybe Dennis Wideman. He's more of a second-pairing guy, though.


I still like Byfuglien.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#89 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 02:40 PM

 
You can't really compare elite goalies to elite D men. For a start, there's like, 1/4th fewer goalies than D men. And I don't think you could say also that it has to be top 2 or top 3. Because if you went with just the top 2, and you've got Brodeur, Hasek and Roy, one of them therefore has to be classified as not elite right? 
 
Top 10 for the D men is probably more realistic because there are alot more of them for starters and with that being the case, there will be a few more elite players. Just the way it works. Altbough really, how many elite D men there are is all relative to the talent currently playing in the league. If there was a sudden influx of top elite D men talent into the NHL, you could easily make it top 20. 
 
As for the direction of this team, (back on topic) I think we're doing fine. This summer though has seemed to drag on and on, can it just be October already? 


I guess but then you can get into the argument of offensive defenseman, defensive defenseman or balanced? I'd say subban is elite offensively but not defensively.

#90 wings4thecup06

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:13 PM

I guess but then you can get into the argument of offensive defenseman, defensive defenseman or balanced? I'd say subban is elite offensively but not defensively.

 

Either way, I don't think he's worth $9m per.


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#91 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 03:20 PM

 
Either way, I don't think he's worth $9m per.

So you let the leader of your team walk?

If z or dat or kronwall or Howard or soon maybe dekeyser or whoever becomes our next number one. If they wanted 9m you wouldn't give it to them and you'd let them walk? Z and dat if they were at sub and age and were leaders on the team. So have to play a little pretend....pretend nick wasn't here and what not.

I think it's a tad much to for subban but you can't let the leader of your team walk. And of the cap keeps going up it could end up being below
Market value down te road. But with all 8 year deals it has it's risks for sure.

Edited by DeGraa55, 03 August 2014 - 03:21 PM.


#92 DickieDunn

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

I would be very hesitant to give anyone less than one of the few nest players on the NHL a deal like that, bit unfortunately it looks like it's going to be the norm.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#93 Zetts

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 06:41 PM

 

We have 5 players over the age of 31.....Franzen (34), Zetterberg (33), Cleary (35), Kronwall (33) and Datsyuk (36) and 3 of those 5 are elite talents. Your statement makes it sound like our team is littered with older players who aren’t performing. We have two in Cleary and Franzen.

It seems like the strong point made in this post has been lost in an argument of semantics.  I don't care if you call Kronwall "elite" or "very good" or whatever else.

 

Ignoring Cleary and (on and off) Franzen, all of our players over 31 are clearly pulling their weight.


Edited by Zetts, 03 August 2014 - 06:43 PM.


#94 krsmith17

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:24 PM

It is beyond ridiculous how much professional athletes make these days but if this contract ever ends up being below market value... sickening... :nervous:



#95 kliq

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:27 PM

It seems like the strong point made in this post has been lost in an argument of semantics.  I don't care if you call Kronwall "elite" or "very good" or whatever else.

 

Ignoring Cleary and (on and off) Franzen, all of our players over 31 are clearly pulling their weight.

 

Thank you, my point exactly. Also, I do agree with Franzen, on and off is a good way of describing him.



#96 kliq

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:34 PM

It is beyond ridiculous how much professional athletes make these days but if this contract ever ends up being below market value... sickening... :nervous:

 

When comparing what these athletes make in comparison to the everyday person, I completely agree with you. Though, at the end of the day player salaries are directly linked to league revenues now, so it is what it is, that’s business.

 

Also, I do want to mention, I am almost sure that when a player makes 9mil a year, he isn’t actually taking home 9mil a year. I remember reading (I think Ilya Kovalchuck said it) that the 9mil is taxed at 50% (I’m sure this changes based on province/state) which brings the net income to 4.5 mil, then they have to pay union/escrow/misc fees, so it actually ends up being around 4million.

 

Not that 4 million is bad by any means, that’s more then most people make in a lifetime. I just thought this was worth saying.



#97 barabbas16

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:54 PM

To me elite is like top 2 or 3 at that position. Like goalies. Elite we had guys like Brodeur Roy and hasek now it's henrik and quick.

So to me kronwall is very good but not elite.

 

You didn't argue against Zetterberg and Dastyuk being elite, though... just Kronwall.  So, does that mean that you believe that they are the top 2 or 3 at that position?



#98 DeGraa55

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 09:57 PM

 
You didn't argue against Zetterberg and Dastyuk being elite, though... just Kronwall.  So, does that mean that you believe that they are the top 2 or 3 at that position?


They were yes. They were what Crosby and malkin are now(talent not the whining).

#99 barabbas16

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 10:16 PM

They were yes. They were what Crosby and malkin are now(talent not the whining).

 

I'm not sure how whether or not they were is relevant to the conversation.  The post you challenged the usage of the word 'elite' in was specifically talking about the team currently and its players over the age of 31.  Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall were mentioned as being 'elite,' and you took issue with that word being used with Kronwall (but took no issue on it when it came to Datsyuk and Zetterberg).

 

Am I to take your response of 'they were' to mean that they are not now, in your opinion, elite?  If so, why did you question/challenge the use of the word 'elite' in association with Kronwall, but not Datsyuk or Zetterberg..... since you do not believe they are elite, currently?



#100 DeGraa55

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:24 AM

 
I'm not sure how whether or not they were is relevant to the conversation.  The post you challenged the usage of the word 'elite' in was specifically talking about the team currently and its players over the age of 31.  Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Kronwall were mentioned as being 'elite,' and you took issue with that word being used with Kronwall (but took no issue on it when it came to Datsyuk and Zetterberg).
 
Am I to take your response of 'they were' to mean that they are not now, in your opinion, elite?  If so, why did you question/challenge the use of the word 'elite' in association with Kronwall, but not Datsyuk or Zetterberg..... since you do not believe they are elite, currently?


Because kronwall never was elite. Even with dat and z on the decline they still can play at that level it's just not what they use to be.





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