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#101 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:32 AM

Does anyone actually think that if Jurco starts the season down in Grand Rapids, he is stuck down there?... I don't believe for a second that we will be hit nearly as bad with injuries this coming season, but yes, there will absolutely be injuries. Let's say we start the season with Jurco and no Alfredsson, a player gets injured and now we have Jurco and Andersson in the lineup. Whereas if that same player got injured, it could have been Jurco and Alfredsson instead of Andersson. Is there anyone that would choose Andersson over Alfredsson?... Depth is huge!



#102 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:39 AM

Yeah, it was definitely a huge mistake to bring back the same team from last season... I mean we only made the playoffs, despite what may have been the biggest rash of injuries to key players that any team has ever had to endure in a single season... I would wager a rather large amount of money that the Detroit Red Wings will finish with more points (94+), and as a higher seed (7th or higher) than last season. I'd even go as far as to say that I believe they will finish with more than 110 points this season and quite possibly challenge for the division...

 

Planet earth isn't lala land and on planet earth every team has to deal with injuries.

 

If Alfie wants to be back he won't make a lot of money, because the Wings still have to re-sign Danny D and he can kiss the cup dream goodbye. If the team misses the playoffs - which is very possible - he will end his career on a bad last year. He deserves better but that's the reality and not lala land, where this team would make 94 or even crazier 110 points *laughs*


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#103 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:55 AM

That's your reality Frank, and to be quite honest I feel bad for you and all the others on here with the negative attitude toward the team and management.

Like I said, I will place a hefty wager on the Wings finishing significantly higher than they did last season. I will also bet that they face half the amount of injuries they did last season.

Things don't always have to be doom and gloom. The future is bright and that brightness is a lot closer than many of you think.



#104 kipwinger

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:00 AM

Does anyone actually think that if Jurco starts the season down in Grand Rapids, he is stuck down there?... I don't believe for a second that we will be hit nearly as bad with injuries this coming season, but yes, there will absolutely be injuries. Let's say we start the season with Jurco and no Alfredsson, a player gets injured and now we have Jurco and Andersson in the lineup. Whereas if that same player got injured, it could have been Jurco and Alfredsson instead of Andersson. Is there anyone that would choose Andersson over Alfredsson?... Depth is huge!

 

Wait, if I understand your logic correctly you're suggesting we put a player in the minors even though he'd make our team better, just in case we have an injury.  That way, in the event of said injury, you can call him up to make the team better? 

 

If that's the case, why not start half the team in GR and fill their spots with dudes who aren't as good.  Then, when they all get hurt, you can call up the guys who should have been there in the first place. 


That's your reality Frank, and to be quite honest I feel bad for you and all the others on here with the negative attitude toward the team and management.

Like I said, I will place a hefty wager on the Wings finishing significantly higher than they did last season. I will also bet that they face half the amount of injuries they did last season.

Things don't always have to be doom and gloom. The future is bright and that brightness is a lot closer than many of you think.

 

I don't think anybody is doubting we'll have a better regular season.  Sure we will.  But I thought we had higher standards than that in Detroit.  I thought we were supposed to compete for Cups and be elite?  I remember when the phrase "class of the league" used to follow mention of the Wings.

 

Bemoan all the injuries you want.  With or without them, we've still done nothing to improve the weaknesses that have gotten us crushed in the playoffs for the last 5 years. 


Edited by kipwinger, 12 August 2014 - 10:02 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#105 number9

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:22 AM

 
Planet earth isn't lala land and on planet earth every team has to deal with injuries.
 
If Alfie wants to be back he won't make a lot of money, because the Wings still have to re-sign Danny D and he can kiss the cup dream goodbye. If the team misses the playoffs - which is very possible - he will end his career on a bad last year. He deserves better but that's the reality and not lala land, where this team would make 94 or even crazier 110 points *laughs*


Yup every team has injuries, but none had nearly as many as we did to key players last season. We will have our fair share of injuries, but it's highly unlikely to be anything close to as bad as last season. And last season we made the playoffs.

#106 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:32 AM

Really Kip? That's what you got out of what I said?... Well no, you clearly don't understand my logic correctly and that is not at all what I am suggesting. I never once compared Jurco to Alfredsson, my comparison was between Alfredsson and Andersson, in which I would take Alfie 11 times out of 10. Now, if we're talking Jurco or Alfredsson I would again choose Alfie but for very different reasons, because of the reasons I have already, clearly stated... Jurco does need more time in the minors.

 

Yes, start half the team in the minors... That's clearly what I was suggesting... C'mon man, if you're going to argue a point I make, at least make it somewhat relevant to what I'm saying.

 

What I'm saying about how much improved our season is going to be, has no baring on the playoffs. Although, I'm pretty sure anyone that sees how high my expectations are on our upcoming regular season, would only assume that I think that will translate into success in next years playoffs... So yes, my standards for the Detroit Red Wings are much higher than just making the playoffs. I'm not saying that we are definitely going to win the cup this year, in fact, I would be surprised if we did. However, I do believe we have just as good a shot as anyone in the East.

 

You have your views on why we have struggled so mightily over the past few years and I have mine. My opinion is that we have been cursed with the injury bug and that has spoiled any chance we've had at success over the past few years. People will say, we haven't been healthy, so why is that all of a sudden going to change? Which is an obvious legit question, but I believe we will be...



#107 kipwinger

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:50 AM

Really Kip? That's what you got out of what I said?... Well no, you clearly don't understand my logic correctly and that is not at all what I am suggesting. I never once compared Jurco to Alfredsson, my comparison was between Alfredsson and Andersson, in which I would take Alfie 11 times out of 10. Now, if we're talking Jurco or Alfredsson I would again choose Alfie but for very different reasons, because of the reasons I have already, clearly stated... Jurco does need more time in the minors.

 

Yes, start half the team in the minors... That's clearly what I was suggesting... C'mon man, if you're going to argue a point I make, at least make it somewhat relevant to what I'm saying.

 

What I'm saying about how much improved our season is going to be, has no baring on the playoffs. Although, I'm pretty sure anyone that sees how high my expectations are on our upcoming regular season, would only assume that I think that will translate into success in next years playoffs... So yes, my standards for the Detroit Red Wings are much higher than just making the playoffs. I'm not saying that we are definitely going to win the cup this year, in fact, I would be surprised if we did. However, I do believe we have just as good a shot as anyone in the East.

 

You have your views on why we have struggled so mightily over the past few years and I have mine. My opinion is that we have been cursed with the injury bug and that has spoiled any chance we've had at success over the past few years. People will say, we haven't been healthy, so why is that all of a sudden going to change? Which is an obvious legit question, but I believe we will be...

 

You keep talking about injuries but we've been healthy in the playoffs every year except this one.  Why are you so sure it's injuries when we've had the same result for since 2010 without any significant injuries?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#108 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:01 AM

Because when you've been injury riddled for an entire season leading up to the playoffs, key players have been over worked and are much more mentally and physically drained then they would have been otherwise. There is a lot to be said for a team that is in position to rest key players down the home stretch of the regular season, and we could very well be in such a position this season. Do you not think that if Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Alfredsson and Kronwall were all relatively healthy for this season that they wouldn't massively benefit from a few games off, heading into the playoffs? I certainly do... Another thing is, just because a player is in the lineup, does not necessarily mean they are healthy, especially when it comes to playoff hockey, everyone knows that...



#109 kipwinger

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:20 AM

Because when you've been injury riddled for an entire season leading up to the playoffs, key players have been over worked and are much more mentally and physically drained then they would have been otherwise. There is a lot to be said for a team that is in position to rest key players down the home stretch of the regular season, and we could very well be in such a position this season. Do you not think that if Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Alfredsson and Kronwall were all relatively healthy for this season that they wouldn't massively benefit from a few games off, heading into the playoffs? I certainly do... Another thing is, just because a player is in the lineup, does not necessarily mean they are healthy, especially when it comes to playoff hockey, everyone knows that...

 

All of the things you just said were true of last year, and last year alone.  They've had the exact same playoff struggles for five years.  You're making it seem like the Wings have been injured for half a decade.  They haven't...and even if they have that's all the more reason to do something different because obviously the team can't stay healthy (in this hypothetical scenario). 

 

Seriously, the argument you're making seems to go like this...

 

Me:  We haven't been good in the playoffs for 5 years.

You:  That's because we've been injured consistently for 5 years.

Me:  We should do something different then, because this team can't stay healthy.

You:  Nope, we should say the course because the injury bug can't possibly be that bad again.

Me:  Of course it can, it's been happening for 5 YEARS!  At this point it's not a fluke anymore.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#110 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:22 AM

 

Your entitled to you opinion, but don't care pair 11 to the former 11, they're not in the same category. Signing Alfie helps this team (No i don't want to tank)

 

Wasn't comparing them at all. Just saying that 2 old, past their prime forwards, that do us no good for the coming season are gonna be in the starting line-up. Alfie was a good fit for the first half of the season, but was invisible save for the GWG against Pittsburgh in the 2nd half. I just don't see the point, this team isn't going to win the cup, I'd just rather see some kids in the line-up then Alfredsson and Cleary, that's all. He's a good player, just don't see what he adds to a fringe playoff team.


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#111 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:59 AM

How is all of what I just said, true only of last year??? We have been injury riddled for the past few years... Are you saying that we haven't? Of course last year was a hell of a lot more than any team is used to missing but the previous years we've still lost a lot of man games. The biggest thing about last year was that we lost so many games to such key players. That won't happen again any time soon, in my opinion. Last year we missed 421 man games, in 2012-13, 243 in a shortened season (415 estimated over a full season), 2011-12 wasn't too bad at 223, 2010-11 256 and 2009-10 311... So on average, we have missed 325 man games to injury over the past 5 seasons, but yet we haven't been injury riddles over that time?

 

And like I said before, it is perfectly reasonable for you to suggest that things will not change on the injury front this season due to past seasons, but I do believe that it will be different, and much better this season. Maybe because, I truly believe that Hank is feeling 100% better than he has in a couple years, I think Pav has been rehabbing his knee all summer and he will come in ready to go, I think Weiss will finally be able to play at 100% for the first time in a Red Wings jersey, I think Helm will surprise everyone and play 75+ games this year, etc, etc... I may be hopeful, but I think it's a lot better than being doom and gloom all the time.

 

If you really think something needs to change, and I'm not really arguing that, I think maybe something needs to be done about the training staff or something... Who knows, but the least of our problems last year was Alfredsson, and I think he could be another great addition again this season...



#112 kipwinger

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 02:34 PM

How is all of what I just said, true only of last year??? We have been injury riddled for the past few years... Are you saying that we haven't? Of course last year was a hell of a lot more than any team is used to missing but the previous years we've still lost a lot of man games. The biggest thing about last year was that we lost so many games to such key players. That won't happen again any time soon, in my opinion. Last year we missed 421 man games, in 2012-13, 243 in a shortened season (415 estimated over a full season), 2011-12 wasn't too bad at 223, 2010-11 256 and 2009-10 311... So on average, we have missed 325 man games to injury over the past 5 seasons, but yet we haven't been injury riddles over that time?

 

And like I said before, it is perfectly reasonable for you to suggest that things will not change on the injury front this season due to past seasons, but I do believe that it will be different, and much better this season. Maybe because, I truly believe that Hank is feeling 100% better than he has in a couple years, I think Pav has been rehabbing his knee all summer and he will come in ready to go, I think Weiss will finally be able to play at 100% for the first time in a Red Wings jersey, I think Helm will surprise everyone and play 75+ games this year, etc, etc... I may be hopeful, but I think it's a lot better than being doom and gloom all the time.

 

If you really think something needs to change, and I'm not really arguing that, I think maybe something needs to be done about the training staff or something... Who knows, but the least of our problems last year was Alfredsson, and I think he could be another great addition again this season...

 

I'm about to blow your mind.  If injuries weren't a concern over the last 5 years, Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen would have played more.  But guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Kindl, White, Colaiacovo, Eaves, Emmerton, and Gustavsson would have played MORE too. 

 

Conversely, guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan, Jurco, and Mrazek would have played less. 

 

It's entirely possible that we could have been a WORSE team without injuries than with them.

 

You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have.  Gotta take the bad with the good.  And when you have a s***ty roster, losing bad players to injury is a net positive. 


Edited by kipwinger, 12 August 2014 - 02:37 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#113 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 02:56 PM

It's simple:

injuries are part of the game (sadfully)

every team has to deal with them

 

Top contenders like Boston had to play without Seidenberg, also known as 50 % of their top pairing, a few seasons ago Pittsburgh was without Crosby AND Malkin for a long period of time. The Blues went into the playoffs injured and lost Backes for a good amount of time - it's part of the game. Some people are making it sound like the only thing holding the Wings back are injuries, that's clearly not the case.

 

As a team gets older injuries are becoming more frequently so come back to the topic: will a 42 old Alfredsson reduce the injury problems ? Highly unlikely, he didn't have anything left for the second half of the season last year and it wasn't just because of injuries the guy was gased.

 

Other teams have long figured out how to play against this team and the problems have been the same since 2009. Alfie is not a guy that can create space or tank his way to the net, he is another older perimeter player who badly wants a cup. I really like thim and would love sseing him a cup but it's not happening here, so I don't understand him nor Brodeur why are they putting their older bodies through this grind again ? Both are multimultimillionaires and they don't have to do it for money that's for sure.


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#114 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 03:52 PM

 

I'm about to blow your mind.  If injuries weren't a concern over the last 5 years, Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen would have played more.  But guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Kindl, White, Colaiacovo, Eaves, Emmerton, and Gustavsson would have played MORE too. 

 

Conversely, guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan, Jurco, and Mrazek would have played less.

 

It's entirely possible that we could have been a WORSE team without injuries than with them.

 

You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have.  Gotta take the bad with the good.  And when you have a s***ty roster, losing bad players to injury is a net positive. 

I think this is pretty flawed thinking. 

 

First of all, not having Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen 

hurt us big time and without considering anything else, I think having them makes us a much better team and I think that trumps all else.

 

As for the other players you mentioned:

Bertuzzi, Sammy, and Cleary were all healthy scratches and played themselves out of there roles. White was benched even when we had injuries in favour of Kindl (when he was good 2 years ago).

Emmerton played as much as he did because of injuries. He would have been sent down if we were healthy.

These players would not have played more if others weren't injured. For those that were injured - If they played more because they themselves weren't injured than they would have not been dealing with injuries and would have helped us out more. 

 

Having Colaiacovo, Eaves, and Gustavsson not injured and playing more would have helped us, I think. 

 

As for the players that would have played less:

I love Mrazek, but he did not exactly run away with the opportunity given this year. I was at the game against the Islanders before Christmas where we got blown away and he looked pretty shaky. If Gustavsson were to take Mrazek's games this past year I don't think that makes us a worse team. Gus got it done somehow this year

 

Andersson playing less this past season wouldn't have been a bad thing and I think he played himself off the team for the coming season.

 

That leaves Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, and Glendening. I think healthy Eaves is better than Glendening (maybe not in the future, but we're talking about the past couple seasons). If you consider that Tatar and Nyquist's extra time was due to the absence of Dats and Z I don't think many would argue that having the euro twins would've made us better. Sheahan's time was due to Weiss' absence - Weiss is supposed to be pretty good so if he was what everyone says he can be that would have made us better. Jurco time comes in place of some winger: Franzen, Alfie? I feel like I don't want to touch that debate, but look at the stats for those players.

 

So, my mind is not blown and I think your argument is quite a stretch. While I don't believe injuries made us better, they do make us better in the future because Glendening, Jurco, Nyquist, Tats, and Sheahan all got experience and claimed spots on the team. This, of course, would be dependant on whether Dats, Weiss, Z, Helm and Franzen can stay healthy



#115 kipwinger

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 03:59 PM

I think this is pretty flawed thinking. 

 

First of all, not having Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen 

hurt us big time and without considering anything else, I think having them makes us a much better team and I think that trumps all else.

 

As for the other players you mentioned:

Bertuzzi, Sammy, and Cleary were all healthy scratches and played themselves out of there roles. White was benched even when we had injuries in favour of Kindl (when he was good 2 years ago).

Emmerton played as much as he did because of injuries. He would have been sent down if we were healthy.

These players would not have played more if others weren't injured. For those that were injured - If they played more because they themselves weren't injured than they would have not been dealing with injuries and would have helped us out more. 

 

Having Colaiacovo, Eaves, and Gustavsson not injured and playing more would have helped us, I think. 

 

As for the players that would have played less:

I love Mrazek, but he did not exactly run away with the opportunity given this year. I was at the game against the Islanders before Christmas where we got blown away and he looked pretty shaky. If Gustavsson were to take Mrazek's games this past year I don't think that makes us a worse team. Gus got it done somehow this year

 

Andersson playing less this past season wouldn't have been a bad thing and I think he played himself off the team for the coming season.

 

That leaves Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, and Glendening. I think healthy Eaves is better than Glendening (maybe not in the future, but we're talking about the past couple seasons). If you consider that Tatar and Nyquist's extra time was due to the absence of Dats and Z I don't think many would argue that having the euro twins would've made us better. Sheahan's time was due to Weiss' absence - Weiss is supposed to be pretty good so if he was what everyone says he can be that would have made us better. Jurco time comes in place of some winger: Franzen, Alfie? I feel like I don't want to touch that debate, but look at the stats for those players.

 

So, my mind is not blown and I think your argument is quite a stretch. While I don't believe injuries made us better, they do make us better in the future because Glendening, Jurco, Nyquist, Tats, and Sheahan all got experience and claimed spots on the team. This, of course, would be dependant on whether Dats, Weiss, Z, Helm and Franzen can stay healthy

 

We were talking about over the last five years.  All of those guys (Bert, Cleary, Sammy, etc.) had significantly bigger roles in the last five years than they did last year, were not regular scratches, but were not in the lineup nightly because of injuries.  Net positive. 

 

And even if that weren't true, you're still making my point for me, which is that just because injuries severely diminished our success last season...they didn't noticeably impact us (for the worse) the four post-seasons before that.

 

Edit:  Actually, I take that back.  Even last year.  Without injuries there were not enough roster spots or cap space to call up ANY of Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco.  No injuries means Dats, Z, Franzen, and Alfie would have been surrounded by garbage all season.  Look at our opening day roster.  You think that team's winning anything?  Nope.


Edited by kipwinger, 12 August 2014 - 04:20 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#116 wings4thecup06

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:24 PM

Injuries aside, I think for me the X factor here is that we've got youngsters now who are ready to contribute and have proven to do that over at least half if not a full NHL season. You combine that with a healthy D and Z and a better season from Howard and I can't possibly see how we can be worse than last year. 

 

Back on topic, Alfie re-signing will most certainly push Jurco down to GR unless Cleary literally plays his way off the club in camp, and they trade away Andersson. 


temp 1

 


#117 Jesusberg

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 04:37 PM

I'm not going to go back and forth about whether or not this team will face a significant number of injuries or not - I don't think any of us can predict that. I think it'd be pretty insane to see the number of injuries we did last year.

 

I will say that this is the youngest the team has looked in years. The superstars are getting long in the tooth, but this team is also going to be able to lean on younger bodies more than ever. Does that stop a freak accident from happening to Z, Pav, etc? No. I think it minimizes the wear and tear, though.

 

I loved the way the Kid Line played during portions of last season, but I also think that playing Alfredsson on the wing of that 3rd line will benefit Tatar and Sheahan as well. Surrounding the kids with veterans who play the game the "right" way is going to turn them into leaders, and superstars.

Can anyone against signing Alfredsson say they would feel the same way if Cleary had not been signed? It's easy to say, "well stop the damage now, we've already got enough veterans". I don't think that has anything to do with Alfredsson being an effective player, because he was. Reality is, playing are going to get hurt, and Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. are going to be called up throughout the season. I don't care how old the guy is - I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't bring back your highest scoring forward from the previous season.

The bottom line for me: Alfredsson  was an effective player last season. You re-sign effective players.



#118 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 05:20 PM

 
You keep talking about injuries but we've been healthy in the playoffs every year except this one.  Why are you so sure it's injuries when we've had the same result for since 2010 without any significant injuries?


Maybe because this years team is a heck of a lot better than those teams up front. Were loaded with talent up front.

D, z, mule, alfy, Nyq, Tatar, Weiss, sheahan, jurco, helm, Abby, etc. I'd say we have one of the best forward corpse in the league. Way better than 2 years ago when we lost in 7 to Chicago who we should have beat.

#119 Euro_Twins

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 05:37 PM

It's simple:
injuries are part of the game (sadfully)
every team has to deal with them
 
Top contenders like Boston had to play without Seidenberg, also known as 50 % of their top pairing, a few seasons ago Pittsburgh was without Crosby AND Malkin for a long period of time. The Blues went into the playoffs injured and lost Backes for a good amount of time - it's part of the game. Some people are making it sound like the only thing holding the Wings back are injuries, that's clearly not the case.
 
As a team gets older injuries are becoming more frequently so come back to the topic: will a 42 old Alfredsson reduce the injury problems ? Highly unlikely, he didn't have anything left for the second half of the season last year and it wasn't just because of injuries the guy was gased.
 
Other teams have long figured out how to play against this team and the problems have been the same since 2009. Alfie is not a guy that can create space or tank his way to the net, he is another older perimeter player who badly wants a cup. I really like thim and would love sseing him a cup but it's not happening here, so I don't understand him nor Brodeur why are they putting their older bodies through this grind again ? Both are multimultimillionaires and they don't have to do it for money that's for sure.


The blues got demolished. Boston got knocked out, as did Pittsburgh. All of those teams did not win cups when they had those injuries.

#120 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:05 PM

The blues got demolished. Boston got knocked out, as did Pittsburgh. All of those teams did not win cups when they had those injuries.

 

Yeah and did their fanbases make a big deal out of it? No, wish they easily could have done and all their teams are better than ours with way more expectations. Their fanbases blamed the whole team and didn't use excuses for their failure that's the differense.

 

Does a guy like Aflie really want to go out as a third liner ? I highly doubt it, just like I don't see Brodeur ever accepting a backup role (which he should if he wants to continue playing).


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