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Alfie wants to play


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#121 krsmith17

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 07:58 PM

Kip, you absolutely did blow my mind... I have absolutely no idea what you are arguing... I say one thing and then you go on a rant about something completely irrelevant to what I am saying... Mind = Blown... I honestly have no idea whatsoever what your point was in listing all the players that would and wouldn't have helped us due to injury... Completely lost...

 

No Frank, you're right... There definitely weren't any fans of those teams blaming their short comings in those seasons to injuries... Not one... Only us Wings fans would do such a ludicrous thing...



#122 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 08:32 PM

My god Boston blamed Rask, Habs Vanek and the Pens their coach. Keep blaming injuries for all I care and dream of hundred point sessions but don't act disappointed if that doesn't happen. But I can already envision the if only Alfredsson would have played more line but whatever keep believing...

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#123 Jesusberg

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 09:24 PM

My god Boston blamed Rask, Habs Vanek and the Pens their coach. Keep blaming injuries for all I care and dream of hundred point sessions but don't act disappointed if that doesn't happen. But I can already envision the if only Alfredsson would have played more line but whatever keep believing...

I can't speak for krsmith, but I'm certainly not under the impression that Alfredsson is going to lead the Red Wings to a cup, or a 100+ point season. Perhaps the team as a whole, with far less injuries, has a shot at doing better than they did last season. I don't think that's out of the realm of expectation. 

I don't think Alfredsson is a game breaker, nor is he someone who will be deemed "responsible" for a playoff exit. He's a very reliable player with good pedigree,  who gave this team some new looks on the power play.

 

Quite frankly, after you consider his offensive contributions last season, the points per game drop off a fair bit for the players beneath him. I'd say the Red Wings could use those points, especially considering the question marks surrounding Weiss. You need points from somewhere, and Alfredsson is capable of producing them. I don't think many people who are in favor of him coming back give more responsibility to or weight on Alfredsson than that.



#124 frankgrimes

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:03 PM

Alfredsson it's still a reliable player like you've said and that's why I would prefer seeing him winning a cup or at least not go out as a third liner. I know he can chip some points and provide tons of good leadership I just don't think it's a smart thing to do long-term wise. Reminds me a bit of the Iginla situation the guy wants a cup and then leaves a contender..so if Alfredsson is smart he signs there and goes for Lord Stanley one more time. If we would have had him back in 2009 it's a totally different story so in fact I am actually for and not against him :-) personally I just don't like the idea of him going out without a cup would be a bad ending to a great career.I mean he is by far the best player Ottawa has ever had!

Edited by frankgrimes, 12 August 2014 - 10:06 PM.

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#125 martinezsvsu

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 10:32 PM

what if i told you we can have both aflie and jurco. someone will get injured and jurco will get called up. i dont see why this is such a big argument. aflie led our team in scoring last season, his contract wont be anything big because we dont have that much cap space. sign him and he will put up 40 something points and we will be happy.



#126 GoWings1905

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:12 PM

what if i told you we can have both aflie and jurco. someone will get injured and jurco will get called up. i dont see why this is such a big argument. aflie led our team in scoring last season, his contract wont be anything big because we dont have that much cap space. sign him and he will put up 40 something points and we will be happy.


The contract is going to carry over into next season too for Alfie. Same with Cleary once he plays his lousy ten games. So the Wings are paying for two players that either don't drastically or at all improve their chances of winning this year or beyond. Sure, there will be injuries but why does that matter? The 12 best forwards should start on the team and Tomas Jurco is one of them.

It took until mid-November to get Gustav Nyquist up last season. I'm not saying Jurco will have that same impact, but I would rather watch him progress against NHL competition and building for the future than veterans that don't change the immediate outlook for the Red Wings.

Alfie was solid until February and then disappeared. Whether it be fatigue or injury, both of those are probable to occur again when dealing with an athlete over 40. It goes back to the direction of the organization. Does a fringe playoff team really benefit from using veterans at the expense of youth? If I thought the Wings could win a Cup, then I'm all for keeping Alfie. Otherwise, I'm not sure there's a real purpose.
 
 
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#127 PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Posted 12 August 2014 - 11:56 PM

 

I'm about to blow your mind.  If injuries weren't a concern over the last 5 years, Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen would have played more.  But guys like Bertuzzi, Samuelsson, Cleary, Kindl, White, Colaiacovo, Eaves, Emmerton, and Gustavsson would have played MORE too. 

 

Conversely, guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan, Jurco, and Mrazek would have played less. 

 

It's entirely possible that we could have been a WORSE team without injuries than with them.

 

You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have.  Gotta take the bad with the good.  And when you have a s***ty roster, losing bad players to injury is a net positive. 

 

 

 

We were talking about over the last five years.  All of those guys (Bert, Cleary, Sammy, etc.) had significantly bigger roles in the last five years than they did last year, were not regular scratches, but were not in the lineup nightly because of injuries.  Net positive. 

 

And even if that weren't true, you're still making my point for me, which is that just because injuries severely diminished our success last season...they didn't noticeably impact us (for the worse) the four post-seasons before that.

 

Edit:  Actually, I take that back.  Even last year.  Without injuries there were not enough roster spots or cap space to call up ANY of Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco.  No injuries means Dats, Z, Franzen, and Alfie would have been surrounded by garbage all season.  Look at our opening day roster.  You think that team's winning anything?  Nope.

Okay, I think I figured out what you're saying. I think you have a number of points - none of which i was helping you prove.

 I think you're saying that Bert, Sammy, and Cleary getting injured was a good thing because it took them out of the lineup. To me that's a complicated "what if." For one thing, If those three weren't injured maybe they would've been effective players. To me, Cleary has only been bad the last 2 years and that definitely has something to to with his knee problems. I think Bert was a positive asset until last 2 years and that probably owes to his missing almost all of 12-13 with injuries. If Sammy came here, wasn't injured and played the way he did in Van and FLA he wouldn't have received as many death threats from LGW members.

 

In the 1st quoted section you seem to extend this to say: without injuries to knocked these 3 out we could have been a worse team in the past 5 years due to their collective presence. Even if I allow the idea that that is a positive, you're talking about the effect of injuries in general so the loses of Helm Z, etc would definitely counteract those "positives" and surely you wouldn't end up with a "net positive."

 

Also, you say that injuries didn't "noticeably impact us (for the worse) the four post-seasons before that." (last year). I really disagree with that. 2 years ago when we were a goal away from advancing past the Hawks, I think it's very debatable whether a healthy Helm and Dekeyser could have pushed us over the edge. Either way, not having those 2 had a noticeably negative impact on the team in my opinion.

 

As for your "edit:" statement, where you say that injuries were a positive thing even last year because they allowed Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan to get in the lineup. This goes against your own statement that: "You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have.  Gotta take the bad with the good." The injuries to D,Z, Weiss etc. clearly counteract the positive of getting Nyquist,Jurco and the Teletubby.

 

As a sidenote: Sammy, Eaves, Tootoo were put in the AHL. Cleary, Bert were healthy scratches at times. All the things could have allowed Nyquist to be on the team. I realize that some of these moves were done after and possibly because of Nyquist's move up to the NHL, but there were many possible ways to get Nyquist on the team and I think he's there by Christmas even without injuries. As for Jurco, Sheahan and how much they play, that's a different story.



#128 DeGraa55

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 12:07 AM

I'm not going to go back and forth about whether or not this team will face a significant number of injuries or not - I don't think any of us can predict that. I think it'd be pretty insane to see the number of injuries we did last year.
 
I will say that this is the youngest the team has looked in years. The superstars are getting long in the tooth, but this team is also going to be able to lean on younger bodies more than ever. Does that stop a freak accident from happening to Z, Pav, etc? No. I think it minimizes the wear and tear, though.
 
I loved the way the Kid Line played during portions of last season, but I also think that playing Alfredsson on the wing of that 3rd line will benefit Tatar and Sheahan as well. Surrounding the kids with veterans who play the game the "right" way is going to turn them into leaders, and superstars.

Can anyone against signing Alfredsson say they would feel the same way if Cleary had not been signed? It's easy to say, "well stop the damage now, we've already got enough veterans". I don't think that has anything to do with Alfredsson being an effective player, because he was. Reality is, playing are going to get hurt, and Jurco, Pulkkinen, etc. are going to be called up throughout the season. I don't care how old the guy is - I don't see a single reason why you wouldn't bring back your highest scoring forward from the previous season.

The bottom line for me: Alfredsson  was an effective player last season. You re-sign effective players.


I was against it last year and this year. I think he is an effective player and would be an asset to any team. I just believe that were not contending or a cup. So why waste a spot on him when we can give a younger player experience?

My argument last year was what can Alfie do that nyquist couldn't do? Now it's what can Alfie do that jurco can't do? Like I said nothing against alfi I just feel nyquist last year and jurco this year should be on the team from day one. The kids should be good enough with dat and z(if healthy) tone tues in the playoffs since that's all some people care about. But we just aren't winning a cup so I personally don't see a good reason in keeping Alfie.

In fact if it came down to cleary or Alfie I'd choose cleary. Because he gave everything he had for this team(yes I still wish he would retire!). But cleary has done A LOT for this team. However I'd still prefer pulk and jurco over cleary and Alfie.

#129 kipwinger

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:24 AM

 

 

Okay, I think I figured out what you're saying. I think you have a number of points - none of which i was helping you prove.

 I think you're saying that Bert, Sammy, and Cleary getting injured was a good thing because it took them out of the lineup. To me that's a complicated "what if." For one thing, If those three weren't injured maybe they would've been effective players. To me, Cleary has only been bad the last 2 years and that definitely has something to to with his knee problems. I think Bert was a positive asset until last 2 years and that probably owes to his missing almost all of 12-13 with injuries. If Sammy came here, wasn't injured and played the way he did in Van and FLA he wouldn't have received as many death threats from LGW members.

 

In the 1st quoted section you seem to extend this to say: without injuries to knocked these 3 out we could have been a worse team in the past 5 years due to their collective presence. Even if I allow the idea that that is a positive, you're talking about the effect of injuries in general so the loses of Helm Z, etc would definitely counteract those "positives" and surely you wouldn't end up with a "net positive."

 

Also, you say that injuries didn't "noticeably impact us (for the worse) the four post-seasons before that." (last year). I really disagree with that. 2 years ago when we were a goal away from advancing past the Hawks, I think it's very debatable whether a healthy Helm and Dekeyser could have pushed us over the edge. Either way, not having those 2 had a noticeably negative impact on the team in my opinion.

 

As for your "edit:" statement, where you say that injuries were a positive thing even last year because they allowed Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan to get in the lineup. This goes against your own statement that: "You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have.  Gotta take the bad with the good." The injuries to D,Z, Weiss etc. clearly counteract the positive of getting Nyquist,Jurco and the Teletubby.

 

As a sidenote: Sammy, Eaves, Tootoo were put in the AHL. Cleary, Bert were healthy scratches at times. All the things could have allowed Nyquist to be on the team. I realize that some of these moves were done after and possibly because of Nyquist's move up to the NHL, but there were many possible ways to get Nyquist on the team and I think he's there by Christmas even without injuries. As for Jurco, Sheahan and how much they play, that's a different story.

 

Of course it's a "what if", but that's the point I'm trying to illustrate.  Whenever anybody blames injures for the woes that have befallen us over the last five years, they're doing the same thing.  They're assuming that having Dats, Z, Helm, and Franzen healthy will make up for all the team's shortcomings.  But that's not really true.  In 2011, and 2012 we were 19th and 13th in the league in injuries (e.g. not badly injured), and yet we had exactly the same results as we did a last year and the year before. 

 

Why? 

 

Because aside from Dats, Z, Franzen (and back then Lidstrom), our team was full of plugs.  The very same plugs who would have been in the roster MORE had they been healthy last year. 

 

We already know what a healthy season of Dats, Z, Franzen, Cleary, Bert, Helm, Abby, etc. looks like.  It looks like 2011 and 2012...when we didn't do anything at all in the playoffs.  And back then they were all younger and had Lidstrom too.  What makes you think it would have been different last year?

 

Everybody acts like without injuries we'd have had some super team full of good kids and productive veterans.  That's not true.  We started the season with too many forwards and not enough cap space.  And even if we did have the roster and cap room, no way do Sheahan or Jurco make that team out of training camp.  Without extended injuries they don't ever get a call up.  Maybe Nyquist would have, but add him to the roster below and it's still bad.  So, in reality, we'd have had this...

 

Z-Dats-Abby

Franzen-Weiss-Alfie

Cleary-Helm-Bert/Tatar

Miller-Andersson-Eaves/Tootoo/Sammy

 

Kronwall-Ericsson

Quincey-Dekeyser

Smith-Kindl

Lashoff

 

That team would get MURDERED by any Cup competitive team in either conference.

 

Finally, an aside:  Give me a break on the Chicago series.  You're talking about having our full roster minus a rookie defenseman and a third line center.  No team is fully healthy in the playoffs.  If your margin of victory is so narrow that a third line center and a rookie defenseman can tip the balance, then you probably weren't meant to win anyway. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#130 Jesusberg

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 09:34 AM

First off, I think this roster is going to be a bit of a mess at the start of the season. All the question marks surrounding Weiss - Will he stay healthy? Who will he find chemistry with? Can he produce like the 2nd line center he's supposed to be? Along with that, we've got Dan Cleary, for at least 10 games, trying to prove he can still play hockey. I'd keep Jurco away from that, for now. Tie goes to the veteran, and even when it's not a tie... well... I think about the way Tatar was mishandled at the beginning of last season and I cringe.

 

The contract is going to carry over into next season too for Alfie. Same with Cleary once he plays his lousy ten games. So the Wings are paying for two players that either don't drastically or at all improve their chances of winning this year or beyond. Sure, there will be injuries but why does that matter? The 12 best forwards should start on the team and Tomas Jurco is one of them.

It took until mid-November to get Gustav Nyquist up last season. I'm not saying Jurco will have that same impact, but I would rather watch him progress against NHL competition and building for the future than veterans that don't change the immediate outlook for the Red Wings.

Alfie was solid until February and then disappeared. Whether it be fatigue or injury, both of those are probable to occur again when dealing with an athlete over 40. It goes back to the direction of the organization. Does a fringe playoff team really benefit from using veterans at the expense of youth? If I thought the Wings could win a Cup, then I'm all for keeping Alfie. Otherwise, I'm not sure there's a real purpose.

 

I see your point about the carry over bonuses, but the team's got about 15 million in space, and that's not taking into account the cap going up by whatever it will go up by. Only Nyquist, Jurco and Smith to retain - I'm not sure what they'll do with Andersson, but if they keep him, he'll be cheap. Add in whatever bonuses carry over and their new cap hits, and I still think we've got plenty of room. If there are reasons to not bring in Alfie, I don't think carry over bonuses are up there, considering the team is in a pretty good situation.

 

As for the best 12 forwards playing, I agree to an extent. If by "best" you mean the most skilled, I think there's still a need for role players. Jurco would have to be on the 3rd line or above for me to want him on this team. I think that if he can play in an insulated situation in the top 9, he could be up... otherwise, he's better off in GR.

 

Nyquist taking until November to be on the team was a pain... a huge pain. I also think it was a far different situation. You had Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Cleary expected to play skilled roles when the skill just wasn't there anymore. Here's Gus in the AHL, who can clearly outplay any of those guys in that role, and he's languishing. I'm not sure that's the same situation here. As I've said before, while Jurco showed flashes of brilliance, he also fell off a bit. I think there's still something to be learned in the AHL for Tomas. Alfie's good for "top 6 forward" points - he's not a Samuelsson or Bertuzzi. Apples and oranges, IMO.

 

Alfie's fatigue, if I'm remembering correctly, can be attributed in part to being overplayed during the Olympics. I remember a few people around here ranting about it. Believe me, I'm not confused here - 40+ year-olds aren't going to hold up as well over an 82 game season, but I think last year was a unique situation that contributed to his drop off. Nyquist dropped off, too. It happens to a lot of guys. It's not just an age thing. At the end of the day, I think having a guy who can produce at a .72 PPG clip, even if it's only for 60 or so games, is worth hanging onto.

 

I'm sure it sounds like a cop-out, but I really have concern over how they'd handle Jurco in this situation. I think that if he is on the team, I'd want it to be in an insulated situation. 3rd line minutes on a line with Sheahan-Alfredsson would be fantastic, I think. The issue there is pushing Abdelkader out of the top 9, and into the 4th line with Miller-Helm. It would also mean one of Franzen, Nyquist or Tatar next to Z-Pavs, and I think we know which way Babcock would go on that one.

 

In fact if it came down to cleary or Alfie I'd choose cleary. Because he gave everything he had for this team(yes I still wish he would retire!). But cleary has done A LOT for this team. However I'd still prefer pulk and jurco over cleary and Alfie.

 

You lost me there. Taking a beaten up, ineffective veteran over one who can still produce for the sake of nostalgia. You stop it right now, Kenny.


Edited by Jesusberg, 13 August 2014 - 09:36 AM.


#131 krsmith17

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:33 AM

To be honest, a lot of this Alfredsson or Jurco talk is starting to piss me off... The real issue here in my opinion is, we need to get rid of Andersson so we don't lose a kid like Callahan on waivers and we need to get rid of Kindl so we have room for one of the kids...

 

Alfredsson should be on the team if he and the team feel he's fit to play. Beneficial to the team this season without hurting the team in the future...

Jurco should be sent down to start the season in the minors. He needs more seasoning in the minors, getting top line minutes and playing in all situations...

Andersson should be waived. He has been passed on the depth chart by too many guys to crack the lineup...

Callahan should be on the 23 man roster to start the season. He has earned his chance to crack the lineup and would be a welcomed physical presence on the 4th line...

Kindl should be traded for a mid to late round draft pick to make room for one of the kids...

One of Ouellet / Sproul / Marchenko / Backman should be on the 23 man roster to start the season...



#132 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 10:50 AM

To be honest, a lot of this Alfredsson or Jurco talk is starting to piss me off... The real issue here in my opinion is, we need to get rid of Andersson so we don't lose a kid like Callahan on waivers and we need to get rid of Kindl so we have room for one of the kids...
 
Alfredsson should be on the team if he and the team feel he's fit to play. Beneficial to the team this season without hurting the team in the future...
Jurco should be sent down to start the season in the minors. He needs more seasoning in the minors, getting top line minutes and playing in all situations...
Andersson should be waived. He has been passed on the depth chart by too many guys to crack the lineup...
Callahan should be on the 23 man roster to start the season. He has earned his chance to crack the lineup and would be a welcomed physical presence on the 4th line...
Kindl should be traded for a mid to late round draft pick to make room for one of the kids...
One of Ouellet / Sproul / Marchenko / Backman should be on the 23 man roster to start the season...


I agree with everything except that jurco should be in the minors. Jurco has earned his place in the lineup and should be starting the season on the kid line with sheahan and Tatar. I don't understand how people don't see this. On many nights this was our best line and at times dominated the opposition. Now think what they can do against 3rd lines and 3rd line d-pairings

The kid line has more chemistry than anybody on our team with the exception being pav and z. Play them together.

As for alfy he should be signed and id really like to see him play with pav and z as he has the hockey iq, skill, and most importantly shot to play well with them and finish their setups.

The real problem is the signing of cleary as all of his money could be going to alfy instead. As well he is blocking a guy like Callahan from being up with the big club

#133 krsmith17

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:17 AM

Well I obviously disagree with Jurco being ready. I think he could definitely use more time down in the minors. Love the kid and think he's going to be a big time player in this league for a long time but another few months to full year will definitely benefit his all around game. I'm done talking about this now though. That is my opinion and you all have your own opinions... Some agree with me and a lot don't, and I'm cool with that.



#134 DickieDunn

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 11:29 AM

The things Jurco needs to work on can be done in the NHL. He's ready. Even more importantly, he brings a much needed blend of skill and physical play. They can easily keep both Jurco and Alfredsson, Helm or Sheahan centers the third line and the other one between Miller and Abdelkader. Andersson, Cleary, Glendening, Ferraro, and Callahan can fight for the two reserve spots. Any of those 5 would be no great loss in the event they were claimed.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#135 number9

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 02:53 PM

Jurcos ripe... But is he overripe???

#136 DeGraa55

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 02:58 PM

Jurcos ripe... But is he overripe???


That's a good point needs AT LEAST two more years in minors. Maybe three or four....SMFH lol

#137 Dabura

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 03:09 PM

The things Jurco needs to work on can be done in the NHL. He's ready. Even more importantly, he brings a much needed blend of skill and physical play. They can easily keep both Jurco and Alfredsson, Helm or Sheahan centers the third line and the other one between Miller and Abdelkader. Andersson, Cleary, Glendening, Ferraro, and Callahan can fight for the two reserve spots. Any of those 5 would be no great loss in the event they were claimed.

 

This.


Don't Toews me, bro!


#138 DickieDunn

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 03:09 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Jurco

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Alfredsson

Miller-Helm-Abdelkader

 

 

Those would be the 4 regular lines if I was the coach, at least to start the season and assuming everyone is good to go health wise.  Callahan would get one reserve spot, the other would be a toss up between Glendening and Joakim "Swedish Emmerton" Andersson, depending on if I wanted a tenacious but unskilled bull dog or a guy with some skill but zero grit as a spare center.  I'd probably go with Glendening.  If I felt really pressured, I'd play Cleary 5 minutes a night the first 10 games to get his bonus then demote him and recall Callahan.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#139 Dabura

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 03:10 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Jurco

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Alfredsson

Miller-Helm-Abdelkader

 

 

Those would be the 4 regular lines if I was the coach, at least to start the season and assuming everyone is good to go health wise.  Callahan would get one reserve spot, the other would be a toss up between Glendening and Joakim "Swedish Emmerton" Andersson, depending on if I wanted a tenacious but unskilled bull dog or a guy with some skill but zero grit as a spare center.  I'd probably go with Glendening.  If I felt really pressured, I'd play Cleary 5 minutes a night the first 10 games to get his bonus then demote him and recall Callahan.

 

Exactly.

 

It's cool having someone else make your argument for you!


Don't Toews me, bro!


#140 kipwinger

kipwinger

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Posted 13 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Jurco

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Alfredsson

Miller-Helm-Abdelkader

 

 

Those would be the 4 regular lines if I was the coach, at least to start the season and assuming everyone is good to go health wise.  Callahan would get one reserve spot, the other would be a toss up between Glendening and Joakim "Swedish Emmerton" Andersson, depending on if I wanted a tenacious but unskilled bull dog or a guy with some skill but zero grit as a spare center.  I'd probably go with Glendening.  If I felt really pressured, I'd play Cleary 5 minutes a night the first 10 games to get his bonus then demote him and recall Callahan.

 

I love Jurco on the top line.  Also, when old man Alf inevitably gets hurt Mantha gets that third line spot.  I also Iike the idea of giving one reserve spot to Callahan.

 

But what about the defense?  That's much tougher.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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