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#41 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:11 PM

 

Look man, I'm not trying to talk you into liking Drew Sharp.  I honestly don't care if you like him or not.  I loathe Mitch Albom, there's nothing that anybody's going to say to make me like his articles, so I understand where you're coming from.  But what I would say is this.  A)  Being a ****, while irksome, doesn't mean he's got a bias against the team.  I know lots of dicks who are fans of the team.  The two things don't go together.  B)  As I've already said, 90% of fans don't like Drew because 90% of U of M fans LOVE that team...and he says bad things about the team.  It doesn't mean those things aren't true.  It just means they have an emotional investment in something he doesn't. 

 

It's like how pissed off parents would get if you criticized their kids.  It's not that their kids are infallible.  It's just that nobody likes hearing negativity directed at something they love.  But as a life long Michigan fan, I can say honestly, that a sober (and therefore negative since the team is bad) assessment of U of M football is not only justified but may actually be beneficial in the long run. 

I really think you are missing my point on him. I really don't care if anyone says something bad about a team that is doing bad.heck I will say Michigan is not doing well and that they suck sometimes..just like with the wings...but to do it even when they do good...and to never really say anything good about a team much less the whole state of Michigan just is over board to me and just makes him look like a trolling d-bag.


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#42 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:34 PM

I really think you are missing my point on him. I really don't care if anyone says something bad about a team that is doing bad.heck I will say Michigan is not doing well and that they suck sometimes..just like with the wings...but to do it even when they do good...and to never really say anything good about a team much less the whole state of Michigan just is over board to me and just makes him look like a trolling d-bag.

 

I've never heard him disparage the state so I can't speak to that.  Also, as far as him saying bad things "even when Michigan is good", we haven't been good in over a decade.  We've won 2 bowl games in ten years, and beat our biggest rival once in ten years.  Winning Conference Championships and mid-level bowl games is fine if you're Purdue, or Northwestern.  Nobody expects you to be better.  But Michigan? 

 

I guess my point is, Michigan football is supposed to be a nationally relevant football program.  That's the standard they've set for themselves, and what we've come to expect.  They haven't lived up to that in a VERY long time, and don't seem to be making any headway toward that now.  So I don't expect Drew Sharp to gush over them winning the odd Big Ten Title, or Gator Bowl.  If U of M wants more respect from the media, they need to win more.  And just like when the Tigers are good, or the Red Wings, or the Pistons, Drew will fall in line and write all the fluff pieces that fans can read.  But he won't if they aren't.   

 

Now, if you're talking about his demeanor?  I don't find it particularly problematic, but if you do I'm going to say you're wrong.  It's your opinion. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#43 uk_redwing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:38 PM

Since when did having an opinion not become part of journalism? Especially sports journalism? That's half the point of the job, otherwise there would only be one writer writing all the content for every outlet!

 

There is also a strong difference between an opinion and stating the obvious a-la Cleary. You don't have to tear the move to shreds, but you especially don't have to go the other way and provide counter-PR bulls*** like Khan on MLive. His recent Q&A session ignored about 90% of the questions about the management and their pathetic moves in the past few years.

 

Why not make an article on the after-effects this may have on the other young players? Why not make an article on the other possible options the Wings could have had for the money, or other options that are still out there? That isn't opinion, that's realistic possible scenarios based on facts. That's journalism. Journalism isn't about being a mindless type writer.

 

I will finish by saying my views are based on the fact I am a sports journalist.


Edited by uk_redwing, 16 July 2014 - 12:39 PM.

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#44 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:51 PM

I will finish by saying my views are based on the fact I am a sports journalist.

 

Mitch?  Is that you?  If you're listening, I just want you to know I hate the mawkish, faux sentimentality, of your articles and your obviously over-inflated view of the profundity of your insights.  A lot.  I mean, I really hate your articles.  You suck. 

 

Otherwise...

 

Drew Sharp?  Is that you?  If you're listening, I just want to say...

 

keep+trolling.jpeg


Edited by kipwinger, 16 July 2014 - 12:52 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#45 StormJH1

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:55 PM

Wow, this article really opened my eyes to some things I hadn't thought about in detail.  To be fair, I don't live in Detroit anymore, so I had always assumed that there were sources of Red Wings access that I hadn't discovered.  I got on Twitter around 2010-ish and tried to figure out who all the good "follows" were.  There really weren't any.  Helene St. James does a decent job, but isn't much of a Twitter presence.  Ansar Khan is probably the closest thing people identified as a "beat writer" in the last few years, but he works for a publication that is barely a "publication", and he wasn't even on Twitter for years (and only sparingly now).  And when these people do report information (as the article said), it's generally the type of stuff you would see on the Wings' own site or NHL.com anyway.

 

Sports radio basically refuses to cover the team like they would cover football and baseball, but for that, they blame the fans ("the phone lines go dead as soon as we start a hockey topic").  The papers are either broke, or too cozy with the organization to call out the front office on anything.

 

It's made it really frustrating to be an out-of-market fan.  The national media perspective on the Wings is some kind of hybrid between "San Antonio Spurs" and "Notre Dame".  In other words, there's still a general reverence and respect for the history of the team and how they've stayed competitive at the same time...but at the same time, they're talked about derisively as this relic of a former era that has yet to come to terms with its current mediocrity.

 

Mike Russo of Star Tribune here in Minnesota is an AWESOME beat writer.  He has full access to the entire team (including the coaches, GM, and owner), a constant Twitter/blog presence, and yet will rip them as hard as anyone (directly or overtly) when the Wild make questionable moves or are playing poorly.  And this is NOT a market known for having a tough sports media.  

 

I can't help but feel that the absence of strong, passionate media figures (and especially those tied to the major networks and papers) has really been a detriment to the fan experience since late last decade, and probably earlier.   



#46 hillbillywingsfan

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:05 PM

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#47 uk_redwing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:22 PM

 

Mitch?  Is that you?  If you're listening, I just want you to know I hate the mawkish, faux sentimentality, of your articles and your obviously over-inflated view of the profundity of your insights.  A lot.  I mean, I really hate your articles.  You suck. 

 

Otherwise...

 

Drew Sharp?  Is that you?  If you're listening, I just want to say...

 

keep+trolling.jpeg

 

I honestly took nothing out of this post and don't understand its point.


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#48 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:29 PM

 

I honestly took nothing out of this post and don't understand its point.

 

Lighten up dude.  It was a lighthearted reference to the discussion we've been having for the last two pages.  It wasn't an attack on you or your post (which I agree with actually). 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#49 uk_redwing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 01:36 PM

 

Lighten up dude.  It was a lighthearted reference to the discussion we've been having for the last two pages.  It wasn't an attack on you or your post (which I agree with actually). 

 

Why lighten up? I'm already light as a cloud.

 

An inside joke? I see how it is...


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#50 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:08 PM

I feel like this piece was purposely released at a time when Red Wings fans are at their angriest to have maximum effect.

 

Time to call the...

 

wahmbulance-1.jpg


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#51 GoWings1905

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:12 PM

I feel like this piece was purposely released at a time when Red Wings fans are at their angriest to have maximum effect.
 
Time to call the...
 
wahmbulance-1.jpg


Ken Holland could start doing his job better and then there wouldn't be so much criticism aimed at the organization.
 
 
"To whom much is given, much is expected."
 
 

 

 

 

 


#52 T.Low

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:23 PM

I make about one post a year and I have to waste it on this garbage....
 
BOOO, these reporters are reporting on the news and not on whatever their opinion might be, BOOO.
This is being played like politics and a perceived lack of interest in bashing management is being equated to condoning said moves.
These are not the same things, everyone is taking mental shortcuts to the conclusion and bypassing the idea that media SHOULD report ONLY the facts.
 
People are so quick to forget that because it is sports, it is journalism too, adding opinion taints that.
 
Let bloggers speculate, speculation is what you people seem to desire, but is also the reason these speculators don't have credentials, because they only want those credentials to make their asinine opinions seem more valid when they are arguing in their own comments section.
 
Nobody knows what a good signing is until the season is over and we all have 20/20 hindsight, your intuition is not proof of any fact and your anger is not a catalyst for change. All I read when I see this garbage is a lot of spoiled fans who even after making the playoffs for 23 years in a row and winning more Stanley Cups than any team in a quarter century, think they could do better and sit around bitterly whining about a few depth moves being made.
 
Grow up Hockeytown!
29 other teams lose the cup or on said free agent, I can't wait for the article to come out saying player X didn't want to come to Detroit because of the entitled fans, well I guess I could buy a website, call myself a blogger, write the opinion myself, use anonymous sources and then ***** because no one takes me serious.





This.

I need to be informed of "what" happened, not what to "think" about it. I can do that on my own.

#53 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:25 PM

Ken Holland could start doing his job better and then there wouldn't be so much criticism aimed at the organization.

 

This article has absolutely nothing to do with "the job Ken Holland is doing".  

 

People are just using it as another soapbox to complain from.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#54 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:47 PM

I feel like this piece was purposely released at a time when Red Wings fans are at their angriest to have maximum effect.

 

Time to call the...

 

wahmbulance-1.jpg

 

I'm confused about your position.  You think that there's nothing wrong with the media coverage of the Wings?


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#55 number9

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:52 PM

I really think you are missing my point on him. I really don't care if anyone says something bad about a team that is doing bad.heck I will say Michigan is not doing well and that they suck sometimes..just like with the wings...but to do it even when they do good...and to never really say anything good about a team much less the whole state of Michigan just is over board to me and just makes him look like a trolling d-bag.

 

 

 

I've never heard him disparage the state so I can't speak to that.  Also, as far as him saying bad things "even when Michigan is good", we haven't been good in over a decade.  We've won 2 bowl games in ten years, and beat our biggest rival once in ten years.  Winning Conference Championships and mid-level bowl games is fine if you're Purdue, or Northwestern.  Nobody expects you to be better.  But Michigan? 

 

I guess my point is, Michigan football is supposed to be a nationally relevant football program.  That's the standard they've set for themselves, and what we've come to expect.  They haven't lived up to that in a VERY long time, and don't seem to be making any headway toward that now.  So I don't expect Drew Sharp to gush over them winning the odd Big Ten Title, or Gator Bowl.  If U of M wants more respect from the media, they need to win more.  And just like when the Tigers are good, or the Red Wings, or the Pistons, Drew will fall in line and write all the fluff pieces that fans can read.  But he won't if they aren't.   

 

Now, if you're talking about his demeanor?  I don't find it particularly problematic, but if you do I'm going to say you're wrong.  It's your opinion. 

 

110213_michigan-state_600.jpg

 

Couldn't help myself.

 

Thing is, IT IS the job of a journalist to regurgitate what management says. They are reporting what was said... and that's what was said....

 

The timing of this article, all the anonymous sources, and the writer constantly citing his own credentials, makes me question this article a lot.



#56 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:03 PM

 

 

 

110213_michigan-state_600.jpg

 

Couldn't help myself.

 

Thing is, IT IS the job of a journalist to regurgitate what management says. They are reporting what was said... and that's what was said....

 

The timing of this article, all the anonymous sources, and the writer constantly citing his own credentials, makes me question this article a lot.

 

I agree.  But surely you don't think that's their ONLY job right?  I mean, you definitely believe that if they're doing their jobs correctly they're following up on what's said by management to see if it is accurate, reliable, valid, relevant, and properly contextualized right?   


Edited by kipwinger, 16 July 2014 - 03:04 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#57 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:05 PM

 

I'm confused about your position.  You think that there's nothing wrong with the media coverage of the Wings?

 

I don't care about the media "asking the tough questions".  I really don't.  I don't get off on the idea of seeing Holland squirm in his seat and hum and hah.

 

What does that accomplish?  People act like he's going to have an epiphany and all it takes is people confronting him about it and then he's going to see the light!

 

In today's era of social media they know the general consensus of their fan base's opinion. It doesn't take a beat reporter's "digging" to find that out.

 

(Much like what 55fan was saying) I rely on the media to give me facts.  I'd love more insider info but I also see how that can be counter-productive to the Wings doing business.

 

I read blogs and message boards (LGW) to hear other people opinions so I can better reflect on my own (which I've gained from watching as many games as I can).


Edited by Son of a Wing, 16 July 2014 - 03:10 PM.

"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#58 number9

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

 

I agree.  But surely you don't think that's their ONLY job right?  I mean, you definitely believe that if they're doing their jobs correctly they're following up on what's said by management to see if it is accurate, reliable, valid, relevant, and properly contextualized right?   

 

Uncovering and reporting the truth? Yes.

 

EDIT: I think that's a lot easier said than done though


Edited by number9, 16 July 2014 - 03:08 PM.


#59 Echolalia

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:08 PM

 
I don't expect Babs or Holland to say "Renney sucks", I expect the reporters to say "Renney sucks" IF he actually does suck.  And to determine that, they should talk to people outside the organization, who nevertheless, actually might know something about hockey and powerplays.  Not simply repeat back what KH or Babs says, because as you've mentioned, those guys are DEFINITELY NOT going to say "Renney sucks"...even if it's true.  And they shouldn't be expected to do so.   
 
It's not like I'm asking them to perform some sort of journalistic black magic.  Verifying the accuracy of what's being told to you, and getting the thoughts of knowledgeable outsiders is standard practice for journalists. 

This is a slippery slope for a couple reasons. 1, slander laws protect people from getting their names bashed in media, even if they do suck. A coach could be the worst coach in history, but if he has a good lawyer, professional statistics aren't that difficult to skew in your favor. Most of LGW has no experience in law and we already mastered that one. NHL personelle likely make way more money than best writers and local journalists, too, so I imagine the lawyer battle would be somewhat one-sides.
Secondly, if a reporter made a reputation for calling out someone in the organization for having a negative impact, chances are that reporter will have a great problem even trying to get interviews, or get into the lockerroom to discuss the game. Hockey players are a loyal bunch, and no organization wants bad rep on them or their employees, no matter how true. Reporters have to tread a fine line in covering stories, but also doing so in such a way that they will have the team's blessing to continue reporting in the future.
In short, I think writing up a "Renney Sucks" article is professional suicide.

Edited by Echolalia, 16 July 2014 - 03:13 PM.


#60 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:16 PM

 

I don't care about the media "asking the tough questions".  I really don't.  I don't get off on the idea of seeing Holland squirm in his seat and hum and hah.

 

In today's era of social media they know the general consensus of their fan base's opinion. It doesn't take a beat reporter's "digging" to find that out.

 

What does that accomplish?  People act like he's going to have an epiphany and all it takes is people confronting him about it and then he's going to see the light!

 

(Much like what 55fan was saying) I rely on the media to give me facts.  I'd love more insider info but I also see how that can be counter-productive to the Wings doing business.

 

I read blogs and message boards (LGW) to hear other people opinions so I can better reflect on my own (which I've gained from watching as many games as I can).

 

I don't think anybody here "gets off" watching Holland squirm.  I do think some people want management held accountable for bad decisions and underperforming expectations.  Media can play a role in doing that (for good or ill). 

 

I don't think anybody here truly believes that media doesn't have a bigger part to play in all this.  Nobody would be satisfied if each day Holland just stood in front of a camera, said what he wanted, took no questions, and then went about his business. 

 

I think the whole point of this media discussion, is that some fans (myself included) believe that's essentially what's happening because the Detroit sports media does not fulfill the "check and balance" role that media (by its independent nature) can provide.


This is a slippery slope for a couple reasons. 1, slander laws protect people from getting their names bashed in media, even if they do suck. A coach could be the worst coach in history, but if he has a good lawyer, professional statistics aren't that difficult to skew in your favor. Most of LGW has no experience in law and we already mastered that one. NHL personelle likely make way more money than best writers and local journalists, too, so I imagine the lawyer battle would be somewhat one-sides.
Secondly, if a reporter made a reputation for calling out someone in the organization for having a negative impact, chances are that reporter will have a great problem even trying to get interviews, or get into the lockerroom to discuss the game. Hockey players are a loyal bunch, and any organization doesn't want bad rep on them or their employees, no matter how true. Reporters have to tread a fine line in covering stories, but also doing so in such a way that they will have the team's blessing to continue reporting in the future.
In short, I think writing up a "Renney Sucks" article is professional suicide.

 

I have a hard time believing that anybody is going to sue a reporter for saying the powerplay is worse under Renney than it was under McClellen.  Seems like a stretch to me.  Especially considering that assertion can be supported by empirical fact. 


 

Uncovering and reporting the truth? Yes.

 

EDIT: I think that's a lot easier said than done though

 

Sure, but they have to at least try.  And just repeating back to readers the things that management says, without properly scrutinizing those things, isn't really doing a very good job of trying.


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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