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#61 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:17 PM

 

I don't think anybody here "gets off" watching Holland squirm.  I do think some people want management held accountable for bad decisions and underperforming expectations.  Media can play a role in doing that (for good or ill). 

 

I don't think anybody here truly believes that media doesn't have a bigger part to play in all this.  Nobody would be satisfied if each day Holland just stood in front of a camera, said what he wanted, took no questions, and then went about his business. 

 

I think the whole point of this media discussion, is that some fans (myself included) believe that's essentially what's happening because the Detroit sports media does not fulfill the "check and balance" role that media (by its independent nature) can provide.

 

I couldn't disagree more with that first sentence...

 

By the sounds of it your advocating for a media atmosphere more like Toronto.  I live in that media sphere and let me tell you it is one huge distraction for that team.


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#62 number9

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:18 PM

 

I don't think anybody here "gets off" watching Holland squirm.  I do think some people want management held accountable for bad decisions and underperforming expectations.  Media can play a role in doing that (for good or ill). 

 

I don't think anybody here truly believes that media doesn't have a bigger part to play in all this.  Nobody would be satisfied if each day Holland just stood in front of a camera, said what he wanted, took no questions, and then went about his business. 

 

I think the whole point of this media discussion, is that some fans (myself included) believe that's essentially what's happening because the Detroit sports media does not fulfill the "check and balance" role that media (by its independent nature) can provide.


 

I have a hard time believing that anybody is going to sue a reporter for saying the powerplay is worse under Renney than it was under McClellen.  Seems like a stretch to me.  Especially considering that assertion can be supported by empirical fact. 


 

Sure, but they have to at least try.  And just repeating back to readers the things that management says, without properly scrutinizing those things, isn't really doing a very good job of trying.

 

That's cause that's not slander

 

That's what opinionated pieces are for.


Edited by number9, 16 July 2014 - 03:19 PM.


#63 Playmaker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:24 PM

So the Powerplay is struggling, whatya have to say about that Mr. Holland?  We've had a lot of injuries.  What's there to follow up on?  What could Chaka Khan or HSJ say to that?  No, you're wrong, it's all your fault for the poor signings?  Gee, guys, you're right, I suck and I'll quit right now.  If it wasn't for your hard hitting reporting and pointing that out, I might not have realized that.

 

So you signed Danny Cleary when it wasn't popular with the fans, what do you say to THAT?  Well, it was popular with our players and coaches, and that's who I listen to.  I also promised DC that when he chose to come back to the Wings that if he signed with us for a year, I'd give him a second year and we keep our promises, for the good and the bad.  But we think Cleary sucks and we need a defenseman for our PP.  You do????  Oh, well then, I'll tear up the contract and go sign a top rated RH offensive minded D man for the league minimum.  I didn't realize we needed help there.  Thanks for being such good reporters!



#64 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:29 PM

 

I couldn't disagree more with that first sentence...

 

By the sounds of it your advocating for a media atmosphere more like Toronto.  I live in that media sphere and let me tell you it is one huge distraction for that team.

 

I didn't say a word about Toronto and you're misrepresenting my point to the extreme in order to validate your own.  Surely you'd agree that there's a happy middle ground between "not questioning the organization at all" and "being endlessly combative for the sake of validating oneself". 

 

I don't think anybody should second guess each and every single little roster decision the coach or GM make.  But I also don't it would be asking too much if the next time Ken Holland said "We don't want to overpay for free agents", a member of the media would respond "didn't you just overpay for Cleary and Quincey?  Why is it ok in those instances?"


So the Powerplay is struggling, whatya have to say about that Mr. Holland?  We've had a lot of injuries.  What's there to follow up on?  What could Chaka Khan or HSJ say to that?  No, you're wrong, it's all your fault for the poor signings?  Gee, guys, you're right, I suck and I'll quit right now.  If it wasn't for your hard hitting reporting and pointing that out, I might not have realized that.

 

So you signed Danny Cleary when it wasn't popular with the fans, what do you say to THAT?  Well, it was popular with our players and coaches, and that's who I listen to.  I also promised DC that when he chose to come back to the Wings that if he signed with us for a year, I'd give him a second year and we keep our promises, for the good and the bad.  But we think Cleary sucks and we need a defenseman for our PP.  You do????  Oh, well then, I'll tear up the contract and go sign a top rated RH offensive minded D man for the league minimum.  I didn't realize we needed help there.  Thanks for being such good reporters!

 

The powerplay has struggled since 2010.  Was it injuries every year or is there a bigger problem?  You know who would be great at answering that question?  A member of the sports media. 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#65 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:37 PM

 

That's cause that's not slander

 

That's what opinionated pieces are for.

 

Checking the validity of what's said doesn't move something from the realm of "truth" into the realm of "opinion".  If Holland says "our powerplay is bad because we've been injured" and a reporter says "wait a minute, your powerplay is bad even when the team isn't injured"; that doesn't make what the reporter said an opinion.  And wouldn't you rather have a reporter ask that follow up question than just trumpet "our powerplay is bad because we were injured" back to you whether that's the actual truth or not? 


GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#66 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:42 PM

 

I didn't say a word about Toronto and you're misrepresenting my point to the extreme in order to validate your own.  Surely you'd agree that there's a happy middle ground between "not questioning the organization at all" and "being endlessly combative for the sake of validating oneself". 

 

I don't think anybody should second guess each and every single little roster decision the coach or GM make.  But I also don't it would be asking too much if the next time Ken Holland said "We don't want to overpay for free agents", a member of the media would respond "didn't you just overpay for Cleary and Quincey?  Why is it ok in those instances?"

 

I said "more like" which is true and *not extreme at all.   Besides I think that's a slippery slope and hard to find a middle-ground.

 

Bottom-line I rely on the beat writers for daily factual updates and the columnists for opinion pieces.  

 

I could care less if Holland is posed with those questions.  What does that accomplish?

 

*Ok maybe it was a little extreme after re-reading my comment.


Edited by Son of a Wing, 16 July 2014 - 03:48 PM.

"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#67 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:54 PM

 

I said "more like" which is true and not extreme at all.  Besides I think that's a slippery slope and hard to find a middle-ground.

 

Bottom-line I rely on the beat writers for daily factual updates and the columnists for opinion pieces.  

 

I could care less if Holland is posed with those questions.  What does that accomplish?

 

Well for starters, identifying the actual truth about a subject informs the public.  And since the Red Wings, like all other businesses, are dependent on the public for revenue they are generally are very amenable to public opinion. 

 

Those types of questions also help inform management too.  One of the biggest mistakes any decision maker can make is thinking that their way is the best way, or their thought process cannot be criticized.  The press acts as a sounding board for decision makers all the time.  Ken Holland is not different. 

 

Finally, asking relevant questions and ensuring that the answers provided are accurate and reliable is also the whole point of having journalism in the first place.  If you'd rather they didn't ask questions, then why do you bother reading news?  Just have the Red Wings twitter and facebook posts sent to your smart phone and move on if you don't care if the news is accurate or not.  However I suspect, since you do go out of your way to consume news (by your own admission), that you'd likely prefer that the news you get is being collected and distributed in accordance with best possible industry standards and not just phoned in. 


Edited by kipwinger, 16 July 2014 - 03:55 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#68 number9

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:56 PM

Checking the validity of what's said doesn't move something from the realm of "truth" into the realm of "opinion".  If Holland says "our powerplay is bad because we've been injured" and a reporter says "wait a minute, your powerplay is bad even when the team isn't injured"; that doesn't make what the reporter said an opinion.  And wouldn't you rather have a reporter ask that follow up question than just trumpet "our powerplay is bad because we were injured" back to you whether that's the actual truth or not?


Yes. But said reporter would need to present some facts that support that point.

#69 Echolalia

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

I have a hard time believing that anybody is going to sue a reporter for saying the powerplay is worse under Renney than it was under McClellen.  Seems like a stretch to me.  Especially considering that assertion can be supported by empirical fact. 


Nobody will be successfully sued for stating fact (which in your case, "the powerplay is worse under Renney than it was under McClellan" is the fact), but postulating as to the cause of the fact, especially when it casts a professional in a negative light, is definitely sue-able material ("Renney sucks", in your case). Regardless of your thoughts on the matter, this is a real possibility and it's entirely within anyone's right to pursue, should they feel their name is tarnished. This, and the other issue I mentioned (establishing yourself as a reporter who casts others in a negative light will likely remove yourself from any future interview opportunities or other journalist access, and it would be quite difficult to be a journalist without these privileges) are likely the reasons who we don't see more beat writers trying to dig up who's to blame because the powerplay isn't as good as it used to be.

#70 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

Yes. But said reporter would need to present some facts that support that point.

 

Sure, I'm not suggesting they make things up.  They should always do fact-based reporting.  That's precisely what I'm advocating.  Not just repeat things that may or may not be accurate or truthful (despite being said by management). 


Nobody will be successfully sued for stating fact (which in your case, "the powerplay is worse under Renney than it was under McClellan" is the fact), but postulating as to the cause of the fact, especially when it casts a professional in a negative light, is definitely sue-able material ("Renney sucks", in your case). Regardless of your thoughts on the matter, this is a real possibility and it's entirely within anyone's right to pursue, should they feel their name is tarnished. This, and the other issue I mentioned (establishing yourself as a reporter who casts others in a negative light will likely remove yourself from any future interview opportunities or other journalist access, and it would be quite difficult to be a journalist without these privileges) are likely the reasons who we don't see more beat writers trying to dig up who's to blame because the powerplay isn't as good as it used to be.

 

My "Renney Sucks" comment was shorthand.  I don't expect, nor would I enjoy if, if a journalist said someone "sucks" in an article.  If the powerplay is objectively worse under Renney than someone else, reporters should ask the coach or GM why.  If the answer they get is properly scrutinized and stands up to fact checking, then the matter can rest.  But if the answer doesn't stand up to scrutiny (for instance:  Our powerplay sucks because we have too many injuries), then I would expect a responsible reporter to try and figure out why and not just take management's word for it. 


Edited by kipwinger, 16 July 2014 - 04:01 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#71 Son of a Wing

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:21 PM

 

Well for starters, identifying the actual truth about a subject informs the public.  And since the Red Wings, like all other businesses, are dependent on the public for revenue they are generally are very amenable to public opinion. 

 

Those types of questions also help inform management too.  One of the biggest mistakes any decision maker can make is thinking that their way is the best way, or their thought process cannot be criticized.  The press acts as a sounding board for decision makers all the time.  Ken Holland is not different. 

 

Finally, asking relevant questions and ensuring that the answers provided are accurate and reliable is also the whole point of having journalism in the first place.  If you'd rather they didn't ask questions, then why do you bother reading news?  Just have the Red Wings twitter and facebook posts sent to your smart phone and move on if you don't care if the news is accurate or not.  However I suspect, since you do go out of your way to consume news (by your own admission), that you'd likely prefer that the news you get is being collected and distributed in accordance with best possible industry standards and not just phoned in. 

 

But you're acting as if, if the right questions were asked, Holland would be all forth-coming with "the truth". 

 

He has his famous sayings.. "I like our team" etc. for a reason. They don't have to answer to us whether we like that or not.

 

Success has granted them some leniency in that department.   If that continues downward I don't expect them to turn to their fan-base for direction.

 

Again, I read the Wings media reports to get updates on players (reports, stats, facts) and read opinion pieces to better reflect on my own. Not to read Holland Q&As. 


"The leader must never close the gap between himself and the group. If he does, he is no longer what he must be. He must walk a tightrope between the consent he must win and the control he must exert."
Vince Lombardi
 
When asked who won, Babcock said, “Well it doesn’t really matter as long as you don’t lose. It’s like going bear hunting, you take a slow guy with you in case the bear is hungry.”

#72 Playmaker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:22 PM

 

I didn't say a word about Toronto and you're misrepresenting my point to the extreme in order to validate your own.  Surely you'd agree that there's a happy middle ground between "not questioning the organization at all" and "being endlessly combative for the sake of validating oneself". 

 

I don't think anybody should second guess each and every single little roster decision the coach or GM make.  But I also don't it would be asking too much if the next time Ken Holland said "We don't want to overpay for free agents", a member of the media would respond "didn't you just overpay for Cleary and Quincey?  Why is it ok in those instances?"


 

The powerplay has struggled since 2010.  Was it injuries every year or is there a bigger problem?  You know who would be great at answering that question?  A member of the sports media. 

Here, I'll be your media.  Ohhh, Ohh,  Pick me! Pick me! Playmaker, your turn.  Okay, Alex, I'll take Red Wings Power Play for a hundred.  Answer:  Nick Lidstrom retired.  Why has the Wings power play gone down since 2010?  RWPP for 2 hundered.   Answer:  Tomas Holmstrom retired.  Question, what's another reason why the RWPP has struggled?  For 3...  Answer:  Ryan Suter, Niskanen, Erhoff:  Question:  Who have the Wings made serious efforts to sign since 2010 to replace the Perfect Human?  Let's go for 4.  Answer:  Tom Renney.  Question:  Who was the coach who had the leagues 3rd best PP with Edmonton that the Wings hired to help on Special Teams?  Let's run the table, RWPP for 500, Alex.  Answer:  Johan Franzen, Daniel Cleary, Justin Abdelkader, Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson.  Question:  Who are guys that were expected to contribute much more on the PP but didn't.  

 

Wow, really thought this game would be a lot harder.  I'd better ask someone from the media to be my phone a friend.



#73 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:25 PM

Well we will have to finish this later gents. I've got a happy hour to attend. Good talk though

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#74 kipwinger

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:46 PM

Here, I'll be your media.  Ohhh, Ohh,  Pick me! Pick me! Playmaker, your turn.  Okay, Alex, I'll take Red Wings Power Play for a hundred.  Answer:  Nick Lidstrom retired.  Why has the Wings power play gone down since 2010?  RWPP for 2 hundered.   Answer:  Tomas Holmstrom retired.  Question, what's another reason why the RWPP has struggled?  For 3...  Answer:  Ryan Suter, Niskanen, Erhoff:  Question:  Who have the Wings made serious efforts to sign since 2010 to replace the Perfect Human?  Let's go for 4.  Answer:  Tom Renney.  Question:  Who was the coach who had the leagues 3rd best PP with Edmonton that the Wings hired to help on Special Teams?  Let's run the table, RWPP for 500, Alex.  Answer:  Johan Franzen, Daniel Cleary, Justin Abdelkader, Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson.  Question:  Who are guys that were expected to contribute much more on the PP but didn't.  

 

Wow, really thought this game would be a lot harder.  I'd better ask someone from the media to be my phone a friend.

 

Here's a couple of quick follow up questions I'd ask based on what you just said if I were a sports journalist (though I'd probably be WAY less condescending about it than you're being).

 

1.  If our powerplay is worse because Lidstrom and Holmstrom retired, why (despite still being bad overall) was it better the year after they left than it was in their final year?

2.  How hard did you really go after Suter, Niskanen, and Ehrhoff if you didn't have the largest offer in any of those three instances?

3.  Why is Tom Renney's powerplay more successful in Edmonton, despite having lesser talent, than it is on a Detroit team full of Stanley Cup winners, two way superstars, and arguably the best head coach in the NHL?

4.  Why would you expect Dan Cleary, Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson, and Justin Abdelkader to contribute significantly on the powerplay?  Three of them are declining veterans who can't stay healthy and whose offense has fallen off considerably while one of them has never contributed much offensively in the NHL in any situation. 

 

Clearly no need for good reporting if Holland is providing rock solid answers like those you've provided.


Edited by kipwinger, 16 July 2014 - 07:53 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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