Signed Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

[Fred_Bear 8]

To preface my own point, none of us are actually in the room when an offer is made. So other then hearing rumors and speculation, none of know for sure what was offered or what was turned down.

Rumor has it that Holland did try to sign some of these UFA's, but once the term/$ amount got ridiculous with the exception of Suter he walked away which I am personally extremely thankful for, even in the case of Suter (no thank you 14 years).

Also, I don't get why people speak as if Holland hasn't gotten a UFA in years. The fact that he didn't sign Boyle, Niskanen, or Erhoff this season is not a big deal, and each player had his own reason of going where they did. Last year the top UFA's were LeCavalier, Iginla, Alfie, Fillpulla, Weiss, and Clarkson, and he signed Alfie and Weiss two of the biggest out there. I'm sure some people are reading this saying "you're saying those are big names lol" to which I respond "you're right, buts that free agency now". This years class was "headlined" by Niskanen and Stasny, middle of the road to good players being overpaid to contracts that teams are going to be looking to buy-out or trade away in a couple years (In the case of LeCavalier it didnt even take 1 full season). Unless you are giving a vet a couple years, anyone at the top of a UFA class is going to be overpaid.

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming?

[PavelValerievichDatsyuk 1,935]

I think its one thing to idly talk about tanking, but I think if we ever had a season where we tanked I think everyone be talking quite differently. I think the reaction would be: he has destroyed this proud organization, tarnished Illitch's legacy, wasted years of D and Z's career, etc. If we even missed the playoffs there would a big cry for Holland to be fired.

Other effects of tanking: Babcock would probably leave for a team trying to win. Some players would probably ask for a trade. If you're complaining about UFAs not coming now, think about what it would be like if we finished last in the East.

So, I know a high prospect would be attractive, but would lose so much in the process and be much farther from winning than we are now. Would it really set us up to win for a while? maybe if we got McDavid, but we would have to shed half the team to be that bad.

We've lucked out and got at least one player that should have been a top pick in Mantha. I say luck, but Holland gets credit for discounting all of Mantha's detractors and recognizing a player open to bettering himself. Dekeyser choosing us was like a free 1st rounder. If you compare what we've added to the team in the way prospects to what Buffalo has by their recent tanking, and consider that we've kept our stars, does it really look like an attractive option?

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs.1. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

2. And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

3.

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming?

1. Compared with what? Other GMs during the same span or Holland before the cap? Because aside from one team (Minnesota), I don't see any teams stealing the show with free agents.

2. We currently have one of the deepest prospect pools in the NHL and develop more of our picks than almost anyone. How many top players do you expect this team to develop??

3. Considering our prospects take about 5 years to develop, it's no surprise none since 2010/11 have proven top 4/6 status since most of them have barely even played in the league.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Son of a Wing

[number9 3,297]

Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.

Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.

Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.

Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..

As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.

There is about 0% chance we pick in the top 5, and a very small chance that we even pick in the top 10... but keep dreaming

[Guest DeGraa55]

There is about 0% chance we pick in the top 5, and a very small chance that we even pick in the top 10... but keep dreaming

I don't know where you u got that idea from? I don't see anywhere that might have been implied in his post. Unless I'm understanding it wrong.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I don't know where you u got that idea from? I don't see anywhere that might have been implied in his post. Unless I'm understanding it wrong.

Well... he was discussing the concept of us tanking and who the "competition" might be and stressed people to keep in mind that even settling for the 2nd pick would be a win.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

There has been one elite level d hit the market recently. He went to the team willing to give his bff a ridiculous contract. Nobody else was close to a #1 d. Most of the 2-4 guys got overpaid by a lot. The Caps gave the Pens' second pair over $10 mil per between them. Unless you think trading several of Jurco, Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Mrazek, Sproul, Ouellet and first round picks is a good idea, plus guys like Pull, Sheahan, Marchenko, etc. there is no way to get elite players anymore, unless you have the exact situation that a free agent is looking for. I don't understand why people can't understand that top players are few and far between on the market now.

[Guest DeGraa55]

There has been one elite level d hit the market recently. He went to the team willing to give his bff a ridiculous contract. Nobody else was close to a #1 d. Most of the 2-4 guys got overpaid by a lot. The Caps gave the Pens' second pair over $10 mil per between them. Unless you think trading several of Jurco, Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Mrazek, Sproul, Ouellet and first round picks is a good idea, plus guys like Pull, Sheahan, Marchenko, etc. there is no way to get elite players anymore, unless you have the exact situation that a free agent is looking for. I don't understand why people can't understand that top players are few and far between on the market now.

But that's kind of the point. We have the prospects to spare that would be needed to acquire an elite talent or two and still have prospects left.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

But that's kind of the point. We have the prospects to spare that would be needed to acquire an elite talent or two and still have prospects left.

I don't think anyone is arguing we don't have the pieces to make a big trade or two.

But what teams are willing to give up "elite talent" for just prospects and picks? They're going to want young proven talent or an elite player back.

Almost every team believes they have a shot at the playoffs and the ones who don't, don't have elite talent.

Who are these "elite players" you see as potentially available who wouldn't cost an elite player in return?

[Guest DeGraa55]

I don't think anyone is arguing we don't have the pieces to make a big trade or two.

But what teams are willing to give up "elite talent" for just prospects and picks? They're going to want young proven talent or an elite player back.

Almost every team believes they have a shot at the playoffs and the ones who don't, don't have elite talent.

Who are these "elite players" you see as potentially available who wouldn't cost an elite player in return?

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Spezza and Kesler either shot down a trade here or their teams thought that they had a better offer from someone else. If Mantha or Jurco were requirements for either, I'm nor sure either would be worth that.

But let's say the Hawks want to move Keith or Seabrook. Would toy move Nyquist, Mantha, Hackman, and a second for him?

[number9 3,297]

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

When and who are you thinking about???

2008 = Stuart

2007 = Bertuzzi

Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.

So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

When and who are you thinking about???

2008 = Stuart

2007 = Bertuzzi

Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.

So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not.

Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.

[Guest DeGraa55]

When and who are you thinking about???

2008 = Stuart

2007 = Bertuzzi

Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.

So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not.

Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.

Spezza and Kesler either shot down a trade here or their teams thought that they had a better offer from someone else. If Mantha or Jurco were requirements for either, I'm nor sure either would be worth that.But let's say the Hawks want to move Keith or Seabrook. Would toy move Nyquist, Mantha, Hackman, and a second for him?

It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx

[kliq 3,755]

Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.

Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.

Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.

Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..

As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.

I think you and I have a HUGE difference in opinion on the skill level of Erhoff and Niskanen.

Niskanen has played in the NHL for 7 seasons and his points totals are the following: 26, 35, 15, 10, 21, 14, 46.

His 46 points last season statistically seem more like an outlier then a true reflection of his ability. This should be a huge red flag to GM's and I am glad Holland didnt give in to the pressure and outbid Washington, I dont want a guy for 7 years for the kind of money that Washington threw at him. If an impact D-man was available in UFA (say a Shea Weber caliber D-man), I would be the first person to say sign him to a long term deal for top dollars, but Niskanen is not that guy. He would not be the difference in us winning a cup or not winning a cup. He may make us slightly better for maybe a few years, then his cap hit would hinder us a few years into his contract.

Ehroff is 32 and appears to be regressing. I believe (I could be wrong) he saw the year Niskanen had offensively playing with Crosby/Malkin and co. and signed a one year deal hoping to up his value so next year he can sign a huge contract. Also, not a guy I feel puts us over the top. I would have loved if we got him at 1 year, 4mil but from what I have heard he wanted much more term/$ to play for the Wings. Glad we didn't overpay.

Whats the point of having capspace? So when your core become UFA/RFA, you can sign them to long term deals rather then lose them. I would be totally fine with signing the guys above to 1 year deals to see what happens, but that wasn't an option. I don't want a stupid signing now to hurt us in 2016 or 2020 etc. when we need to re-sign guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Mantha etc.

The Nashville trade.......it may end up being a horrible trade, I'm not going to argue either way, but you cant know that now. In 3 years we will know if that trade was bad or not.

[kliq 3,755]

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming?

Let me ask you, who are the UFA's you wish he signed over the past few years? Weiss and Alfie were two of the best last year (projection wise) and this year was filled with above average/good players.

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

Those two in particular, I am glad we didn't trade for. I admit that they are both good players, but they are extremely injury prone which is the last thing we need to add to a roster filled with guys with injury history. Then factor in that guys like Mantha and Jurco and company were the asking price, I am extremely glad we didnt pull off a big trade. I am okay trading for a star, but a want a young star, who doesn't have a ton of red flags and those guys aren't typically available.

Edited August 19, 2014 by kliq

[number9 3,297]

Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.

He made the NHL and we didn't re-sign Bertuzzi. I wasn't commenting on Matthias as player, but on the trade being an insignificant one for us.

Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.

It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx

Yup. And precap worlds are not the same as post cap world bud. Spending is a whole lot more conservative now. You can't compare the teams actions now to their actions then. Those teams operated under different rules.

And we haven't been on the decline since our trading ended either. Our trading culture ended with Lang and the lockout in 04, and that was coming out of 1st and 2nd round exits in 03 and 04. That continued till 06 and ended in 09. We improved just fine and won a cup without significant trading or selling the prospect pool, in fact it was prospects we had developed who helped contribute to that cup.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Let me ask you, who are the UFA's you wish he signed over the past few years? Weiss and Alfie were two of the best last year (projection wise) and this year was filled with above average/good players.

Those two in particular, I am glad we didn't trade for. I admit that they are both good players, but they are extremely injury prone which is the last thing we need to add to a roster filled with guys with injury history. Then factor in that guys like Mantha and Jurco and company were the asking price, I am extremely glad we didnt pull off a big trade. I am okay trading for a star, but a want a young star, who doesn't have a ton of red flags and those guys aren't typically available.

Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.

How about sequin?

[kliq 3,755]

Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.

How about sequin?

I would love to have Seguin, but I dont see Boston trading a young stud like him to a division rival.

Ryan wouldn't have been a bad choice, I remember there were rumors about that.

[LeftWinger 4,934]

its just my opinion, but this is bad news. I hate it and feel its going to push the Wings even further down the list of desirable places to play. This is not good.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.

How about sequin?

I would love to have Seguin, but I dont see Boston trading a young stud like him to a division rival.

Ryan wouldn't have been a bad choice, I remember there were rumors about that.

Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.

[kliq 3,755]

Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.

If that was the case, I'm glad we didnt pull the trigger. I see much more upside with Gus then Ryan, nothing against Ryan.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.

If that was the case, I'm glad we didnt pull the trigger. I see much more upside with Gus then Ryan, nothing against Ryan.

Nyquist certainly coasts less than Ryan.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Nyquist certainly coasts less than Ryan.

Till his injury Ryan has scored 30 or more goals every season and he did that while always playing on a budget team. To me this is very impressive love the speed of Nyquist but I wouldn't even think twice about trading him for Ryan that's an absolute streak.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Till his injury Ryan has scored 30 or more goals every season and he did that while always playing on a budget team. To me this is very impressive love the speed of Nyquist but I wouldn't even think twice about trading him for Ryan that's an absolute streak.

Playing on a budget team?

Yeah it was really tough playing with Getzlaf and Perry for all four 30 goal seasons...

Ryan is a very good player but lets not act like he was fighting that kind of adversity...