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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**

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Yup ufas aren't coming and the prospect pool is dry after Pulkinen

Frank, I can't tell if you truly feel this way or if your over-zealous dissapproval of Holland has spiraled out of control.

Eveyone's entitled to their opinion for sure, but this statement I quoted is just plain wrong.

This defense and this goalie isn't going to get us anywhere in the playoffs provided we even make it in. Sorry but you'd have to be an incurable optimist to believe otherwise.

And what about incurable pessimists?

Ok when was the last time the Wings got a top ufa? My answer would be 2008 Marian Hossaand only because he badly wanted to be here.

I'm just a fan but the writing has been on the wall for quite some time now and with it as saying no to Detroit Holland needs to get creative and might take the risk of losing a big trade.

So what is so wrong about my statement?

The game has evolved teams are now built in a much more balanced way and GMs need to react quickly and sorry but I haven't seen that drive since 2007.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Here's the thing about all those Kings prospects you listed:

Brown - drafted 13th overall 2003

Kopitar - drafted 11th overall 2005

Doughty - drafted 2nd overall 2008

Johnson - drafted 3rd overall 2005

Simmonds - drafted 61st overall 2007

Quick - drafted 72nd overall 2005

That's four key players who were drafted 13th overall or lower in the space of 5 years. The Wings are lucky (as we all know) if we even get a first round pick. I think what I'm trying to point out is that these guys is that due to their draft position they were already well heralded, hyped and great things were expected of them.

Our guys? Was anyone really saying that Datsyuk was going to be the hall of fame caliber player he is back in 1998? Right now the only guy in our prospect pool who might even come close to what those guys from the Kings had is Mantha - yet we still don't even know what we'll get from him as there's a chance he might not even play in the NHL this season.

Personally, I think what we've seen is a philosophy change from KH and the management team - build up the prospect ranks, re-stock the farm, and slowly integrate those kids into bigger roles in the NHL to compliment and support the big guns so that the team grows while also remaining competitive. Once we have the kind of team that KH believes can compete for the cup, then I think we'll start seeing a few trades to bring in guys that will help maintain that goal. A bit like the Stuart trade before we won in 08.

I'm guessing here, but I reckon people don't like that because we all want to win now, and on the surface it looks like this team has been going backwards - 1 playoff round win in 3 years. Personally I think this team is moving forward - even with Cleary, and I think the Wings took the biggest step last year. They've established that an entire 3rd line of kids are good enough and ready enough to not only take NHL jobs, but also contribute in a big way. And thus, the philosophy is working. The kids we're drafting and developing are turning into legitimate NHLers. The task I think now is just getting healthy and letting everyone play together so the Wings can evaluate what we truly have, how good everyone is, and what pieces need to be added to make the Wings a cup competitor.

But I guess that takes time, and not everyone is happy about that.

I'm not sure why you're pointing out when those prospects were drafted. I wasn't knocking Holland for not drafting guys like Doughty and Kopitar. I was pointing out that the Kings in 2009 were stacked with young talent in a response to a post about how far they came in a few seasons.

It's not just that it's taking time. It's that Holland has made several uncharacteristically bad moves these last few seasons. And while I don't expect the Wings to win the Cup every year, I guess I was hoping he'd make bigger moves to try and keep the team competitive while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still relevant. Dats is 36 years old and has 3 more years on his contract. If the rebuild takes that long I wouldn't count on him being a part of it.

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That 2009 roster had Kopi, Brown, Doughty, J. Johnson, Wayne Simmonds, and Jonathan Quick. They were a talented, but crazy young team. Brown was the oldest of that group at 23. Doughty was 18. Johnson was 21. Quick was 22. I don't know a ton about the Wings prospects but I'm pretty sure they don't compare to that group.

Harold, I was essentially responding to that by pointing out the reason those prospects on the Kings were so highly regarded. They were really high picks. As opposed to most guys drafted by the wings - they're lower picks, go much further under the radar and generally take a lot longer to reach any sort of high ceiling that they might have.

Yes KH has made a couple of bad moves, but not everything he has done has been bad. If I'm arguing this, I'd say this team is still competitive. Making the playoffs still means you're competitive. It means you've got a chance. While this team hasn't been the dominant juggernaut that I think most here would like to see (myself included), doesn't mean they haven't been competitive. And realistically, what if he'd actually signed Suter? This team would have been strengthened no end I feel. But he swung and miss in free agency, and it happens. It just means that it's taking a little longer for the plan to come to fruition in terms of the young guys coming through the system, which we're finally seeing the benefit of. Obviously, I think we'd all like to see the Wings get back to world beaters sooner rather than later, but if it also takes time, and if that means it's done the right way that ensures long term success again, then i'll be willing to wait.

Edited by wings4thecup06

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Ok when was the last time the Wings got a top ufa? My answer would be 2008 Marian Hossaand only because he badly wanted to be here. I'm just a fan but the writing has been on the wall for quite some time now and with it as saying no to Detroit Holland needs to get creative and might take the risk of losing a big trade. So what is so wrong about my statement? The game has evolved teams are now built in a much more balanced way and GMs need to react quickly and sorry but I haven't seen that drive since 2007.

Seriously Frank? Whether people like to admit it or not Alfie and Weiss were two of the biggest guys last year.

Oh you meant a player of Hossa's stature? Yeah they don't hit UFA status anymore. Parise and Suter were the last ones and 1 team out of 30 got them for hometown reasons.

Who exactly are these Hossa-calibre players we're missing out on??

Also, you couldn't be more wrong about our prospect pool. Nothing past Pulkkinen?? My god man.... I can't tell if you're trolling or just that blinded by your pessimism.

Mantha, Athanasiou, Janmark, Nosek, Nastasiuk, Larkin, Turgeon, Bertuzzi

If that's nothing then I want a whole lot more of nothing...

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Seriously Frank? Whether people like to admit it or not Alfie and Weiss were two of the biggest guys last year.

Oh you meant a player of Hossa's stature? Yeah they don't hit UFA status anymore. Parise and Suter were the last ones and 1 team out of 30 got them for hometown reasons.

Who exactly are these Hossa-calibre players we're missing out on??

Also, you couldn't be more wrong about our prospect pool. Nothing past Pulkkinen?? My god man.... I can't tell if you're trolling or just that blinded by your pessimism.

Mantha, Athanasiou, Janmark, Nosek, Nastasiuk, Larkin, Turgeon, Bertuzzi

If that's nothing then I want a whole lot more of nothing...

I've said CENTER prospects after Pulkinnen. Larkin can play either center or left wing and till he is ready nobody will know at which position he is going to flourish.

Good god Alfie wanted to play with a bunch of Swedes - at this point in his career he is a depth player plain and simple - and thought this team would have give him a better chance than his old one, there were also reports of him being pissed about the lowball offer from the Senators. Weiss top UFA seriously ? The guy came back after a serious injury and nobody knew if he would be fully recovered or not turns out, he wasn't. So till he shows huge improvements this season I wouldn't even call him a good signing save for a Hossa type of signing but maybe that doesdn't fit the rose colored blind thoughts of some..

As for missing out Niskanen, Ehrhoff ?! They may not be Hossa type players but both were the by far best UFAs this year and we didn't get either one, period. So a GM can't have the luxury of stating "I don't know why they aren't coming here.." because that means this teams future would solely depend on almost every prospect reaching their expected maximum potential and how often does that happen ? (hint the number is lower than 1...)

Holland has his work cutout for him and he better figures out how to get top UFAs to sign here otherwise this will be a looooong 4 years.

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I've said CENTER prospects after Pulkinnen. Larkin can play either center or left wing and till he is ready nobody will know at which position he is going to flourish.

Good god Alfie wanted to play with a bunch of Swedes - at this point in his career he is a depth player plain and simple - and thought this team would have give him a better chance than his old one, there were also reports of him being pissed about the lowball offer from the Senators. Weiss top UFA seriously ? The guy came back after a serious injury and nobody knew if he would be fully recovered or not turns out, he wasn't. So till he shows huge improvements this season I wouldn't even call him a good signing save for a Hossa type of signing but maybe that doesdn't fit the rose colored blind thoughts of some..

As for missing out Niskanen, Ehrhoff ?! They may not be Hossa type players but both were the by far best UFAs this year and we didn't get either one, period. So a GM can't have the luxury of stating "I don't know why they aren't coming here.." because that means this teams future would solely depend on almost every prospect reaching their expected maximum potential and how often does that happen ? (hint the number is lower than 1...)

Holland has his work cutout for him and he better figures out how to get top UFAs to sign here otherwise this will be a looooong 4 years.

Wow OK Frank I can read your (now-edited) statement. The original read...

Yup ufas aren't coming and the prospect pool is dry after Pulkinen

Zombo quoted you a page back if you forgot... Besides the fact that Pulkkinen isn't a center so "center prospects after Pulkkinen" doesn't make any sense.

Ehrhoff and Niskanen are overpaid middle-tier players. Valuable but costly.

You mention the swedish connection yet ignore Niskanen's connection to Washington....

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Guest DeGraa55

Here's the thing about all those Kings prospects you listed:

Brown - drafted 13th overall 2003

Kopitar - drafted 11th overall 2005

Doughty - drafted 2nd overall 2008

Johnson - drafted 3rd overall 2005

Simmonds - drafted 61st overall 2007

Quick - drafted 72nd overall 2005

That's four key players who were drafted 13th overall or lower in the space of 5 years. The Wings are lucky (as we all know) if we even get a first round pick. I think what I'm trying to point out is that these guys is that due to their draft position they were already well heralded, hyped and great things were expected of them.

Our guys? Was anyone really saying that Datsyuk was going to be the hall of fame caliber player he is back in 1998? Right now the only guy in our prospect pool who might even come close to what those guys from the Kings had is Mantha - yet we still don't even know what we'll get from him as there's a chance he might not even play in the NHL this season.

Personally, I think what we've seen is a philosophy change from KH and the management team - build up the prospect ranks, re-stock the farm, and slowly integrate those kids into bigger roles in the NHL to compliment and support the big guns so that the team grows while also remaining competitive. Once we have the kind of team that KH believes can compete for the cup, then I think we'll start seeing a few trades to bring in guys that will help maintain that goal. A bit like the Stuart trade before we won in 08.

I'm guessing here, but I reckon people don't like that because we all want to win now, and on the surface it looks like this team has been going backwards - 1 playoff round win in 3 years. Personally I think this team is moving forward - even with Cleary, and I think the Wings took the biggest step last year. They've established that an entire 3rd line of kids are good enough and ready enough to not only take NHL jobs, but also contribute in a big way. And thus, the philosophy is working. The kids we're drafting and developing are turning into legitimate NHLers. The task I think now is just getting healthy and letting everyone play together so the Wings can evaluate what we truly have, how good everyone is, and what pieces need to be added to make the Wings a cup competitor.

But I guess that takes time, and not everyone is happy about that.

How did the wings get Stevie y? It wasn't with the 278 overall pick. People are so DMAN short sighted YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

Then they continue to draft AND trade AND sign free agents and were able to maintain it. Now they don't trade or sign free agents but still draft so we will see if they can.

It'll be tough for the playoff record the wings are in to happen again but that doesn't matter. What does matter is four cups in the span of 23 years now which can be matched. And I wouldn't surprised to see the kings do that either.

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How did the wings get Stevie y? It wasn't with the 278 overall pick. People are so DMAN short sighted YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

Then they continue to draft AND trade AND sign free agents and were able to maintain it. Now they don't trade or sign free agents but still draft so we will see if they can.

It'll be tough for the playoff record the wings are in to happen again but that doesn't matter. What does matter is four cups in the span of 23 years now which can be matched. And I wouldn't surprised to see the kings do that either.

Oh the irony...

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I've said CENTER prospects after Pulkinnen. Larkin can play either center or left wing and till he is ready nobody will know at which position he is going to flourish.

Good god Alfie wanted to play with a bunch of Swedes - at this point in his career he is a depth player plain and simple - and thought this team would have give him a better chance than his old one, there were also reports of him being pissed about the lowball offer from the Senators. Weiss top UFA seriously ? The guy came back after a serious injury and nobody knew if he would be fully recovered or not turns out, he wasn't. So till he shows huge improvements this season I wouldn't even call him a good signing save for a Hossa type of signing but maybe that doesdn't fit the rose colored blind thoughts of some..

As for missing out Niskanen, Ehrhoff ?! They may not be Hossa type players but both were the by far best UFAs this year and we didn't get either one, period. So a GM can't have the luxury of stating "I don't know why they aren't coming here.." because that means this teams future would solely depend on almost every prospect reaching their expected maximum potential and how often does that happen ? (hint the number is lower than 1...)

Holland has his work cutout for him and he better figures out how to get top UFAs to sign here otherwise this will be a looooong 4 years.

Pulkinnen doesn't play center. Andreas Athanasiaou, however does.

We've got really good depth at center right now: Datsyuk, Weiss, Sheahan, Helm, Glendening, Andersson. No new centers are going to make the team for a number of years, but we've got two really good C prospects anyway: AA and Larkin. We also have a few years to draft and develop other guys before they're needed. I'd say that's a pretty situation to be in.

Alfie and Weiss definitely were top UFA. We're rebuilding and we still attracted top UFAs. Your reasons for discounting Alfie's reasons for coming here are very similar to the reasons that Hossa came here.

Edit: I know somebody is going to my statement: "We've got really good depth at center" and say: Weiss is a big question mark. To that I say, if Weiss is a bust (and that seems unlikely) put Z as second line center. I don't really know why the team became so obsessed with playing D and Z together the past two years. Something like this would fill in that possibility.

Franzen-Dats-Mantha

Alfie-Z-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Abby

Glendening

You could shuffle around wingers, but my point is even without Weiss I feel good about our forwards. Or just shuffle all the centers up and maybe Sheahan or Helm becomes a 2nd line center. I really don't think that's outside the realm of possibilities and it would get Helm off the 4th line where I think he is wasted. Now I've really gone off, but our situation at forward really excites me (as long as I don't mention Cleary...Damn, I did it!).

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How did the wings get Stevie y? It wasn't with the 278 overall pick. People are so DMAN short sighted YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

Then they continue to draft AND trade AND sign free agents and were able to maintain it. Now they don't trade or sign free agents but still draft so we will see if they can.

It'll be tough for the playoff record the wings are in to happen again but that doesn't matter. What does matter is four cups in the span of 23 years now which can be matched. And I wouldn't surprised to see the kings do that either.

Essentially you've just taken what I said completely out of context. Obviously, I'm highly aware that we drafted Stevie with the 4th overall pick in 1983. And obviously, I realise that's what happens when you have bad seasons - you get to draft highly.

What I was trying to point was the fact that the Kings young guys that Harold mentioned, were heralded for the fact that they were drafted really high. Contrast that with the Wings, who rarely pick high, and most of the time in the last decade or two have traded them away.But more so, the guys that are core players now were not thought of as hot shot, blue chip prospects. They had to plough their trade and earn it, and they improved to the point of stardom.

I hardly think that I was being short sighted or arrogant.

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How did the wings get Stevie y? It wasn't with the 278 overall pick. People are so DMAN short sighted YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

Then they continue to draft AND trade AND sign free agents and were able to maintain it. Now they don't trade or sign free agents but still draft so we will see if they can.

It'll be tough for the playoff record the wings are in to happen again but that doesn't matter. What does matter is four cups in the span of 23 years now which can be matched. And I wouldn't surprised to see the kings do that either.

Yes. We tanked to get good. 30 years ago. 2 generations of players ago we were bad. Nobodys denying that. It's that we're still good without having to tank again that's impressive.

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Guest DeGraa55

Pulkinnen doesn't play center. Andreas Athanasiaou, however does.

We've got really good depth at center right now: Datsyuk, Weiss, Sheahan, Helm, Glendening, Andersson. No new centers are going to make the team for a number of years, but we've got two really good C prospects anyway: AA and Larkin. We also have a few years to draft and develop other guys before they're needed. I'd say that's a pretty situation to be in.

Alfie and Weiss definitely were top UFA. We're rebuilding and we still attracted top UFAs. Your reasons for discounting Alfie's reasons for coming here are very similar to the reasons that Hossa came here.

Edit: I know somebody is going to my statement: "We've got really good depth at center" and say: Weiss is a big question mark. To that I say, if Weiss is a bust (and that seems unlikely) put Z as second line center. I don't really know why the team became so obsessed with playing D and Z together the past two years. Something like this would fill in that possibility.

Franzen-Dats-Mantha

Alfie-Z-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco

Miller-Helm-Abby

Glendening

You could shuffle around wingers, but my point is even without Weiss I feel good about our forwards. Or just shuffle all the centers up and maybe Sheahan or Helm becomes a 2nd line center. I really don't think that's outside the realm of possibilities and it would get Helm off the 4th line where I think he is wasted. Now I've really gone off, but our situation at forward really excites me (as long as I don't mention Cleary...Damn, I did it!).

I will say Weiss can be bust. I also agree z can play center and I would prefer him there BUT we have a lack of top 6 wingers right now. Moving z to center would hurt that. As of right now there isn't anyone good enough to play with z and dat moving z to center means we would need two top line wingers maybe nyquist can be one maybe not we don't know yet.

Yes. We tanked to get good. 30 years ago. 2 generations of players ago we were bad. Nobodys denying that. It's that we're still good without having to tank again that's impressive.

I think we should wait to see if we win a cup with a core of smith dekeyser nyquist and Tatar before people can make tht statement. Were still in the process in my opinion. I said it before we will see if the wings the cup or have a top ten pick first and see if their method has truly worked or not.

Essentially you've just taken what I said completely out of context. Obviously, I'm highly aware that we drafted Stevie with the 4th overall pick in 1983. And obviously, I realise that's what happens when you have bad seasons - you get to draft highly.

What I was trying to point was the fact that the Kings young guys that Harold mentioned, were heralded for the fact that they were drafted really high. Contrast that with the Wings, who rarely pick high, and most of the time in the last decade or two have traded them away.But more so, the guys that are core players now were not thought of as hot shot, blue chip prospects. They had to plough their trade and earn it, and they improved to the point of stardom.

I hardly think that I was being short sighted or arrogant.

The point in saying is the wings had some high picks to get their core (yzerman) then they continued to draft and trade/sign free agents to maintain competitive.

The kings are at the point now where to continue their success they'll need to continue drafting well with worse picks. Continue making trades/signing free agents which they are. The kings have a recipe that is what the wings USED to do. That's why I believe the kings can very well continue their success for the next ten years just like us.

Now the wings aren't signing free agents or making key trades like they used to. And to me that's the difference in one just making the playoffs and is competing for a cup.

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I will say Weiss can be bust. I also agree z can play center and I would prefer him there BUT we have a lack of top 6 wingers right now. Moving z to center would hurt that. As of right now there isn't anyone good enough to play with z and dat moving z to center means we would need two top line wingers maybe nyquist can be one maybe not we don't know yet.

I think we should wait to see if we win a cup with a core of smith dekeyser nyquist and Tatar before people can make tht statement. Were still in the process in my opinion. I said it before we will see if the wings the cup or have a top ten pick first and see if their method has truly worked or not.

The point in saying is the wings had some high picks to get their core (yzerman) then they continued to draft and trade/sign free agents to maintain competitive.

The kings are at the point now where to continue their success they'll need to continue drafting well with worse picks. Continue making trades/signing free agents which they are. The kings have a recipe that is what the wings USED to do. That's why I believe the kings can very well continue their success for the next ten years just like us.

Now the wings aren't signing free agents or making key trades like they used to. And to me that's the difference in one just making the playoffs and is competing for a cup.

There's a veryyyy different strategy when you have a young core, opposed to an old one.

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Wow OK Frank I can read your (now-edited) statement. The original read...

Yup ufas aren't coming and the prospect pool is dry after Pulkinen

Zombo quoted you a page back if you forgot... Besides the fact that Pulkkinen isn't a center so "center prospects after Pulkkinen" doesn't make any sense.

Ehrhoff and Niskanen are overpaid middle-tier players. Valuable but costly.

You mention the swedish connection yet ignore Niskanen's connection to Washington....

The Ehrhoff signing is almost a Hossa one and it clearly shows how the reception has changed. Back in the days top ufas wanted to come here and now the team is lucky to even be on their final lists. Nielsen has the connection yes, but the caps also presented him with an offer that was 4 million better than ours. Ehrhoff at 4 million is far from costly it's an absolute steal, Niskanen at only 5.75 or is also far from costly that guy is only getting better from now on because he is entering his prime.

If a team doesn't get the top guys they need to draft top guys and develop them, the Wings for sure know how to develop players but only being good enough to just make the playoffs or missing them could easily lead to a Calgary our Buffalo situation in a few years.

So the pressure for the prospects is already high and if one of the defenders turns out to be just average uuuuu...It's all I can say.

Holland simple can't afford to wait and hope for the big signing anymore, as former mentioned this team isn't a premier destination anymore..So he needs to pull out some tricks o ur else this won't be far from the worst we might see. Is it fair who knows? But he is getting paid the big bucks and now has 4 years to prove he can still be the much needed mastermind behind the Wings.

The whole loyalty thing is also funny, where was that when it came down to Draper, Dmac or Downey ?

But given his performance since 2009 and one mistake after another it should easily be understandable why some fans are worried.

Edited by frankgrimes

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The Ehrhoff signing is almost a Hossa one and it clearly shows how the reception has changed. Back in the days top ufas wanted to come here and now the team is lucky to even be on their final lists. Nielsen has the connection yes, but the caps also presented him with an offer that was 4 million better than ours. Ehrhoff at 4 million is far from costly it's an absolute steal, Niskanen at only 5.75 or is also far from costly that guy is only getting better from now on because he is entering his prime. If a team doesn't get the top guys they need to draft top guys and develop them, the Wings for sure know how to develop players but only being good enough to just make the playoffs or missing them could easily lead to a Calgary our Buffalo situation in a few years. So the pressure for the prospects is already high and if one of the defenders turns out to be just average uuuuu...It's all I can say. Holland simple can't afford to wait and hope for the big signing anymore, as former mentioned this team isn't a premier destination anymore..So he needs to pull out some tricks o ur else this won't be far from the worst we might see. Is it fair who knows? But he is getting paid the big bucks and now has 4 years to prove he can still be the much needed mastermind behind the Wings. The whole loyalty thing is also funny, where was that when it came down to Draper, Dmac or Downey ? But given his performance since 2009 and one mistake after another it should easily be understandable why some fans are worried.

No and no.

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How did the wings get Stevie y? It wasn't with the 278 overall pick. People are so DMAN short sighted YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

Then they continue to draft AND trade AND sign free agents and were able to maintain it. Now they don't trade or sign free agents but still draft so we will see if they can.

It'll be tough for the playoff record the wings are in to happen again but that doesn't matter. What does matter is four cups in the span of 23 years now which can be matched. And I wouldn't surprised to see the kings do that either.

Am I reading correctly that you are saying the Wings intentionally tanked for 20 years, give or take, simply to raise their draft position? If that's the case, I highly recommend you do some research, because that is patently untrue. And there were several other significant changes that occurred just before and just after the Stevie Acquisition that started the Wings on the upswing.

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Guest DeGraa55

There's a veryyyy different strategy when you have a young core, opposed to an old one.

What might that be in your opinion?

Cause to me if you have a young core you let them play maybe trade less and see who and how well they develop. Not sign old over the hill players and force the young core to start in the ahl when they belong in the nhl (Hollands method).

Am I reading correctly that you are saying the Wings intentionally tanked for 20 years, give or take, simply to raise their draft position? If that's the case, I highly recommend you do some research, because that is patently untrue. And there were several other significant changes that occurred just before and just after the Stevie Acquisition that started the Wings on the upswing.

I wasn't alive at the point in time so I don't know what the reasons are for the dead wing era.

I do know for a fact it was high draft picks that got us yzerman and others that started the upswing and the run the wings are on.

I think it's pure arrogance when peoe down the hawks pens and kings for having their high draft picks turn into stars cause the wings went through the same thing. Theirs just happened many years later.

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What might that be in your opinion?

Cause to me if you have a young core you let them play maybe trade less and see who and how well they develop. Not sign old over the hill players and force the young core to start in the ahl when they belong in the nhl (Hollands method).

I wasn't alive at the point in time so I don't know what the reasons are for the dead wing era.

I do know for a fact it was high draft picks that got us yzerman and others that started the upswing and the run the wings are on.

I think it's pure arrogance when peoe down the hawks pens and kings for having their high draft picks turn into stars cause the wings went through the same thing. Theirs just happened many years later.

When you have a Crosby/Malkin/Letang or Toews/Kane/Keith, you pretty much know you have them for the next 10 - 15 seasons to build around, so you're not thinking about building a new core right now, you don't know what you'll have in the next 10 to 15 seasons.

With Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall we have them for the next 3+ years. We are very much thinking about building a new core. And for the Wings a core comes from within, not from without, for a variety of reasons. If our core was younger I'd definitely expect more risky trades to be happening, because we could afford to make those possible mistakes with a young core.

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I wasn't alive at the point in time so I don't know what the reasons are for the dead wing era.

I do know for a fact it was high draft picks that got us yzerman and others that started the upswing and the run the wings are on.

I think it's pure arrogance when peoe down the hawks pens and kings for having their high draft picks turn into stars cause the wings went through the same thing. Theirs just happened many years later.

And yet you state very emphatically, and I quote, YES THE WINGS TANKED TO GET GOOD. Stop the god damn arrogance and accept it.

So on what were you basing that statement?

And exactly which high draft picks in that era besides Yzerman turned into stars? After Stevie was drafted, the only *notable picks in the first 2 rounds were Shawn Burr, Adam Graves, Yves Racine, Keith Primeau, LaPointe, McCarty, Dandenault, Fischer, Kronwall, Hudler, Howard, Kindl, Abdelkader, Tatar, Jurco and Mantha. Yeah, that's a real parade of stars. Some good, some I wouldn't trade for the world but hardly stars, and some unproven.

*I use the word "notable" somewhat loosely.

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The Ehrhoff signing is almost a Hossa one and it clearly shows how the reception has changed. Back in the days top ufas wanted to come here and now the team is lucky to even be on their final lists. Nielsen has the connection yes, but the caps also presented him with an offer that was 4 million better than ours. Ehrhoff at 4 million is far from costly it's an absolute steal, Niskanen at only 5.75 or is also far from costly that guy is only getting better from now on because he is entering his prime. If a team doesn't get the top guys they need to draft top guys and develop them, the Wings for sure know how to develop players but only being good enough to just make the playoffs or missing them could easily lead to a Calgary our Buffalo situation in a few years. So the pressure for the prospects is already high and if one of the defenders turns out to be just average uuuuu...It's all I can say. Holland simple can't afford to wait and hope for the big signing anymore, as former mentioned this team isn't a premier destination anymore..So he needs to pull out some tricks o ur else this won't be far from the worst we might see. Is it fair who knows? But he is getting paid the big bucks and now has 4 years to prove he can still be the much needed mastermind behind the Wings. The whole loyalty thing is also funny, where was that when it came down to Draper, Dmac or Downey ? But given his performance since 2009 and one mistake after another it should easily be understandable why some fans are worried.

???????? Downey only played in Detroit one year (and one in GR). Loyalty goes to those have been around a while were an important part of your team at some point.

Draper and Dmac were shown great loyalty. McCarty's chance to come back in 07-09 was precisely due this loyalty. Few other organizations would have given that chance of a comeback to a 35+ character player.

Draper played 17 years for the same team and currently works for said team. How many 4th line centers can say that? You must see the loyalty in that. He was kind of forced into retirement, but he was 39 and it was pretty clear he was done. He was still offered a tryout contract.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Guest DeGraa55

When you have a Crosby/Malkin/Letang or Toews/Kane/Keith, you pretty much know you have them for the next 10 - 15 seasons to build around, so you're not thinking about building a new core right now, you don't know what you'll have in the next 10 to 15 seasons.

With Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Kronwall we have them for the next 3+ years. We are very much thinking about building a new core. And for the Wings a core comes from within, not from without, for a variety of reasons. If our core was younger I'd definitely expect more risky trades to be happening, because we could afford to make those possible mistakes with a young core.

Ok so your logic which I guess I can agree. We can't really judge the hawks or pens until their core is retired an we will see how they are. If they can match it by winning one cup once Crosby and malkin are gone or not. I think that's fair?

Or four cups in a twenty year span.

I guess I don't follow your thinking with the core. You'd think with our current core being older wouldn't you want to win now or them? What about our younger players? If say nyquist is apart of our next core why was it better to sign/resign old veterans and have him stuck in the minors? When in the end we weren't going to win a cup and nyquist would bring the same points or more then say Alfie or cleary at this point in their careers.I'm well rounded in all sports. Like when I first started watching the tigers and fully understandin things they were god awful. I saw Michigans streaks end. Stupid little streaks MEAN NOTHING winning championships do. Building/rebuilding to win championships doesn't bother me at all. But there's clear choices to make one way or another not a little of both.

Nothing worse than just sitting on the fence and getting no where.

Also explain how that's arrogance? Stating a fact that the wings tanked and got good players is arrogant? Damn learn something new everyday lol.

Edited by haroldsnepsts
removed deleted post

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Ok so your logic which I guess I can agree. We can't really judge the hawks or pens until their core is retired an we will see how they are. If they can match it by winning one cup once Crosby and malkin are gone or not. I think that's fair?

Or four cups in a twenty year span.

I guess I don't follow your thinking with the core. You'd think with our current core being older wouldn't you want to win now or them? What about our younger players? If say nyquist is apart of our next core why was it better to sign/resign old veterans and have him stuck in the minors? When in the end we weren't going to win a cup and nyquist would bring the same points or more then say Alfie or cleary at this point in their careers.

I'm well rounded in all sports. Like when I first started watching the tigers and fully understandin things they were god awful. I saw Michigans streaks end. Stupid little streaks MEAN NOTHING winning championships do. Building/rebuilding to win championships doesn't bother me at all. But there's clear choices to make one way or another not a little of both.

Nothing worse than just sitting on the fence and getting no where.

Also explain how that's arrogance? Stating a fact that the wings tanked and got good players is arrogant? Damn learn something new everyday lol.

They didn't tank. They tried but went through a drought anyway. The whole notion of tanking is mostly a cap era phenomenon anyway. Therefore it's arrogant of you to just assume the Wings tanked the team in order to get a guy like Yzerman when you weren't even there. Because that's not what happened, and Stevie, even though he's heralded as such, was not the savior of this organization. He very well could have been the first coming of John Tavares had Wings not played their cards almost perfectly.

In regards to your above statements. Hindsight is 20/20. Just because we didn't win a cup those years doesn't mean the wings couldn't have. And the organization as well as most of us believed, and still do believe, they had a fair shot. Playing older vets kept younger players, like Nyquist, in the minors to build their confidence and develop their game better than they would being rushed into the NHL. Since vets, like you said, got essentially the same points that a rookie would have, there was more good done than harm.

I'm glad you're well-rounded in most sports. It means you obviously know that most hockey players aren't normally ready until 24, 26, or sometimes even 27, unlike most American sports where the ready-age is between 18 and 22. This organization is going to continue sheltering prospects as best they can until they hit those years despite anyone's impatient clamoring. Aside from the rare few who can truly squeak in at an earlier age.

Also, Wings players have routinely expressed their pleasure with Ken always putting together a veteran team.

Edited by number9

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Guest DeGraa55

They didn't tank. They tried but went through a drought anyway. The whole notion of tanking is mostly a cap era phenomenon anyway. Therefore it's arrogant of you to just assume the Wings tanked the team in order to get a guy like Yzerman when you weren't even there. Because that's not what happened, and Stevie, even though he's heralded as such, was not the savior of this organization. He very well could have been the first coming of John Tavares had Wings not played their cards almost perfectly.

In regards to your above statements. Hindsight is 20/20. Just because we didn't win a cup those years doesn't mean the wings couldn't have. And the organization as well as most of us believed, and still do believe, they had a fair shot. Playing older vets kept younger players, like Nyquist, in the minors to build their confidence and develop their game better than they would being rushed into the NHL. Since vets, like you said, got essentially the same points that a rookie would have, there was more good done than harm.

I'm glad you're well-rounded in most sports. It means you obviously know that most hockey players aren't normally ready until 24, 26, or sometimes even 27, unlike most American sports where the ready-age is between 18 and 22. This organization is going to continue sheltering prospects as best they can until they hit those years despite anyone's impatient clamoring. Aside from the rare few who can truly squeak in at an earlier age.

Also, Wings players have routinely expressed their pleasure with Ken always putting together a veteran team.

Who are you to say the hawks or pens tanked? No one knows if anyone actually tanks therefore tanking=losing in sports. Not the proper definition buts that's how it's used.

Also the 24 26 28 age you through out is a bit off. I don't remember the exact ages but someone posted the years players had their highest goal totals and I though the best years were 22-24 I think? I could be remember 100% wrong but I believe that's what it was.

Edited by DeGraa55

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Who are you to say the hawks or pens tanked? No one knows if anyone actually tanks therefore tanking=losing in sports. Not the proper definition buts that's how it's used.

Also the 24 26 28 age you through out is a bit off. I don't remember the exact ages but someone posted the years players had their highest goal totals and I though the best years were 22-24 I think? I could be remember 100% wrong but I believe that's what it was.

I don't know how long you've been in the hockey community, but it's pretty universally understood that the Pens purposefully tanked for the team they have now. The Crosby selection made them the poster boy for the tanking strategy, like what will be done for McDavid this season. The financial hardships they had forced that hand in many ways, but that's what happens when you resign to "being bad". If you are insistent on arguing this point I suggest researching those teams and the late 70s early 80s wings before commenting further.

http://fromtherink.sbnprivate.com/2010/7/16/1572579/when-is-an-nhl-players-prime-age

http://news.ubc.ca/2014/05/15/nhl-study/

Some cite a players prime age as early as 24, some as late as 29. I have no idea where you are getting 22-24 from. Those players are rare, but usually dominant. The Wings want their kids to enter the league in a dominant year. That's what over-ripening is all about.

Edited by number9

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