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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**



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#181 frankgrimes

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 11:39 PM


 
I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.
 
List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:
08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)
09-10 - None
10-11 - None
11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)
12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)
12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)
13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)
13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)
14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)
 
The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.
 
And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?
 
2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist
2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)
2010-11 - None
2011-12 - None
2012-13 - None
2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)
 
Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...
 
The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming? 


 
Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul say hi
That makes a rate of 1 a year since 08-09! Pretty sure that's better than most teams...especially considering we draft middle of the pack, low, or give away our first every year


And who is responsible for that decision? Right the GM anyway he now has 4 years to right a sinking ship. It's a really tough task and after we lose Babs it will be even harder

Personally I would have preferred a rebuild in such an awesome draft year but seems like the streak is more important : (

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#182 wings4thecup06

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 03:07 AM

And who is responsible for that decision? Right the GM anyway he now has 4 years to right a sinking ship. It's a really tough task and after we lose Babs it will be even harder Personally I would have preferred a rebuild in such an awesome draft year but seems like the streak is more important : (

 

But we are rebuilding Frank. It's just happening slowly and with less drastic effects, as the Wings are filtering in the young guys into the lineup to compliment and eventually succeed, the vets. 

 

I would still prefer to make the playoffs every year than go the traditional rebuild route where you don't even sniff a winning record for half a decade. But that's me. 


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#183 DickieDunn

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 08:39 AM


And who is responsible for that decision? Right the GM anyway he now has 4 years to right a sinking ship. It's a really tough task and after we lose Babs it will be even harder Personally I would have preferred a rebuild in such an awesome draft year but seems like the streak is more important : (


 
But we are rebuilding Frank. It's just happening slowly and with less drastic effects, as the Wings are filtering in the young guys into the lineup to compliment and eventually succeed, the vets. 
 
I would still prefer to make the playoffs every year than go the traditional rebuild route where you don't even sniff a winning record for half a decade. But that's me. 


Especially considering there is no guarantee that tanking gets you anywhere. Imagine if the Wings had drafted Lawton instead of Yzerman and the Russians had stayed home.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#184 Dabura

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 09:53 AM

Wanted to add something to this:

 

Do you know what a slightly healthier season and/or fewer boneheaded mistakes from Kyle Quincey and/or better luck in the shootout means? Well, for one thing, one more point in the standings gets us the Penguins in the first round. (We ended the regular season tied with the Jackets in terms of points.) I remember very cleary - we wanted the Pens, because we knew we stacked up well against them (even without Zetterberg and Ericsson), and the Pens fans didn't want the Wings, because they knew the Wings stacked up well against the Pens (even with Crosby and Malkin and Neal and Kunitz and The Mighty Matt Niskanen and Future Hall of Famer Brooks Orpik). The Pens were let off the hook and given the Jackets. Because of a tiebreaker rule. Because Johan Franzen and Joakim Andersson spent time as our top center and our heart-and-soul leader had surgery and...Jared Cowen*. (*Don't say we need an enforcer.)

 

Seven more points? We're even with ZOMG CUP CONTENDERS THE MONTREAL CANADIENS. Eight more points? We're even with ZOMG 2015 EASTERN CONFERENCE CHAMPIONS THE TAMPA BAY LIGHTNING. The Flyers? They finished a whopping one point ahead of us. The Rangers, who went to the Stanley Cup Finals? They finished a whopping two points ahead of the Flyers, three points ahead of us.

 

Zone Entries and the Red Wings [Winging It In Motown]

 

We've noted here before that whenever somebody gets to play with Tatar or Nyquist, they get a notable bump in possession. In this sample of data, the Wings generated .57 shots per Nyquist entry (whether by dump or carry), while they generated just .44 shots for every Joakim Andersson entry. Maybe that doesn't sound like a lot, but let's project that over the course of a full season. Nyquist was on pace for about 400 entries of any kind over the course of the season. In a world where both players had 400 entries, Nyquist's entries would be worth 52 more shots over the course of the season, or 4-5 goals. That's probably worth 1-2 points in the standings, which means the Wings play a much more beatable Pittsburgh team in round 1 instead of the Bruins.

 

So, again, something as seemingly small as Andersson playing a greatly elevated role for a game or two due to injuries - that alone was, perhaps, the difference between the Pens and Bruins in the first round. Point being, again, it's easy to say the glass is half-empty for the Wings and that they're barely a playoff team in the weak East. But I personally believe that's selling the team - and its architect - short.


Edited by Dabura, 21 August 2014 - 09:57 AM.

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#185 frankgrimes

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:09 PM

 

But we are rebuilding Frank. It's just happening slowly and with less drastic effects, as the Wings are filtering in the young guys into the lineup to compliment and eventually succeed, the vets. 

 

I would still prefer to make the playoffs every year than go the traditional rebuild route where you don't even sniff a winning record for half a decade. But that's me. 

 

I know but more like a real rebuild it doesn't need to be tanking, just playing more young kids and not bring some stopgaps.

 

 


Especially considering there is no guarantee that tanking gets you anywhere. Imagine if the Wings had drafted Lawton instead of Yzerman and the Russians had stayed home.

 

Who said you need to absolutely bomb ? I mean honestly if it would have happened in a McEichel year hardly anything wrong with it. Like I've said before I don't think a top 3 pick is realistic but if things go south I believe top 10 could be possible which is still a very good pick just not that "sexy" superstar pick.

 

btw. what makes people so sure the Wings would have won against Pittsburgh ? The Pens lost against a team with an awesome defense, the Wings would have had to play more of a offense versus offense type of game and that's exactly the type of game you don't want to play against a team with Malkin, Crosby and Letang.


Edited by frankgrimes, 21 August 2014 - 12:10 PM.

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#186 number9

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:41 PM

 

I know but more like a real rebuild it doesn't need to be tanking, just playing more young kids and not bring some stopgaps.

 

 

 

Who said you need to absolutely bomb ? I mean honestly if it would have happened in a McEichel year hardly anything wrong with it. Like I've said before I don't think a top 3 pick is realistic but if things go south I believe top 10 could be possible which is still a very good pick just not that "sexy" superstar pick.

 

btw. what makes people so sure the Wings would have won against Pittsburgh ? The Pens lost against a team with an awesome defense, the Wings would have had to play more of a offense versus offense type of game and that's exactly the type of game you don't want to play against a team with Malkin, Crosby and Letang.

 

Overripe



#187 LeftWinger

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 12:43 PM

The point being, there were/are a ton of "what ifs?" The biggest two being what if we have less injuries this season and what if Franzen returns to form.  We very well may have a couple less injuries, but Franzen is where he is at.  He will not suddenly become 2008 Franzen again, you are going to have to be fine with 15-20 goals from him, if that.

 

Howard is still average.  He needs to step it up big time and prove he can win the BIG games. I don't care if he wins 25 or 45 games in the regular season, he needs to win the 16 BIG ones.  He is in his prime, he has probably already peaked, so he needs to step it up because he is two years away from losing his starting job outright to Mrazek. 

 

Injuries: Like it or not, agree with me or not, Pav, Z, Franzen, Helm, Ericsson are all damaged goods.  Yes they can possibly have an injury free season, but history dictates otherwise.  I expect all of these guys to out for periods of time this seasons.

 

That is what makes this Holland re-sign sit bad in my stomach.  He relies too much on what-ifs. Sure IF all take a 180 and we have a relatively injury free season and Cleary/Q/K get back to a useful asset, etc... Holland will look like a genius and he will say "Told you so."  But as these players get older, the odds are it's not going to happen.  I just think that the past 4-5 season's of betting on what-ifs has turned Detroit off in the minds of other NHL players around the league.  Maybe I am just a bit jaded from all the recent UFA snubs and traded players not wanting Detroit on their "list."  We will see.  But in 4 years if we are still bumping kids to waivers and back to GR while Holland keeps signing the same crap players over and over again, there may be a serious exodus of ticket holders.


Edited by LeftWinger, 21 August 2014 - 12:45 PM.

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#188 number9

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:49 AM

IMO the elite GM's out there are Bowman, Armstrong, Bob Murray, Holland, Lombardi, Chiarelli, and for pure personal opinion Maloney (he's done a lot with a little).

 

And the up and comers are Yzerman, Nill, Kekalainen, and Sakic.

 

That's 6 elite GM's not counting Maloney (5 if don't count Holland, which I know some of you probably won't)

 

And 4 possible near future elites give or take.

 

The point I'm trying to get at is there's about 10 real good GM's in this league, and even if you count Holland out of that 10, he's still very close to it. To not extend him and go with a wildcard would be insanity at this point in time. Maybe if we still had Yzerman and/or Nill we could afford letting him walk, but not now, bc we certainly arn't going to be able to poach one of the other elites out there and there's no one else available that's comparable (I think Shero sucks).



#189 GMRwings1983

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:18 PM

IMO the elite GM's out there are Bowman, Armstrong, Bob Murray, Holland, Lombardi, Chiarelli, and for pure personal opinion Maloney (he's done a lot with a little).

 

And the up and comers are Yzerman, Nill, Kekalainen, and Sakic.

 

That's 6 elite GM's not counting Maloney (5 if don't count Holland, which I know some of you probably won't)

 

And 4 possible near future elites give or take.

 

The point I'm trying to get at is there's about 10 real good GM's in this league, and even if you count Holland out of that 10, he's still very close to it. To not extend him and go with a wildcard would be insanity at this point in time. Maybe if we still had Yzerman and/or Nill we could afford letting him walk, but not now, bc we certainly arn't going to be able to poach one of the other elites out there and there's no one else available that's comparable (I think Shero sucks).

 

Except Holland is on that list from past performance, not for anything he's done the last 5 years.  


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#190 number9

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

 

Except Holland is on that list from past performance, not for anything he's done the last 5 years.  

 

He's done very well up until 2010 though. Since he's gone with some lower risk trades and FA's, but he's done a great job, IMO, maintaining while building the farm. Even if you count him out of the top 10, i'd say he's still right there at number 11.

 

Edit: Good job, not great


Edited by number9, 22 August 2014 - 12:38 PM.


#191 frankgrimes

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

Good list but I want to see what Sakic can do this year, before I name him a top 10 GM. Avs have lost their  top center, a great backup and haven't re-signed Barrie yet so there is still work to do.

 

My list would be:

 

1. Lombardi, Yzerman, Chiarelli, Nill, Bowman, Armstrong

2. Poile (although he might be on the hotseat), Maloney (what this guy is doing with a shoestring budget is amazing),

3. Holland, Kekailinen, Bob Murray

 

I also think Benning will do a good job in Vancouver if they give him the time.


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#192 number9

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:35 PM

Good list but I want to see what Sakic can do this year, before I name him a top 10 GM. Avs have lost their  top center, a great backup and haven't re-signed Barrie yet so there is still work to do.

 

My list would be:

 

1. Lombardi, Yzerman, Chiarelli, Nill, Bowman, Armstrong

2. Poile (although he might be on the hotseat), Maloney (what this guy is doing with a shoestring budget is amazing),

3. Holland, Kekailinen, Bob Murray

 

I also think Benning will do a good job in Vancouver if they give him the time.

 

How does Nill get a pass in your book, but not Sakic? I still think Yzerman is pretty green as well.



#193 frankgrimes

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:38 PM

 

How does Nill get a pass in your book, but not Sakic? I still think Yzerman is pretty green as well.

 

Nil is green as well but he started it all of with absolutely robbing a top 2 GM (Chiarelli), and then followed it up with getting Spezza for spareparts, signed Hemsky. Sakic hasn't made such a big trade yet but he did something really well --> picking MacKinnon so he definately on the right track.

 

Even if Yzerman is still green, what the guy has done with Tampa is just awesome and mark my words he will not standby and watch Stamkos signing with Toronto. Long before UFA Stammer will re-sign there.


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The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..

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#194 Number19

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:51 PM

Whatever happened to retiring when Lidstrom retires?



#195 number9

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 04:56 PM

 

Nil is green as well but he started it all of with absolutely robbing a top 2 GM (Chiarelli), and then followed it up with getting Spezza for spareparts, signed Hemsky. Sakic hasn't made such a big trade yet but he did something really well --> picking MacKinnon so he definately on the right track.

 

Even if Yzerman is still green, what the guy has done with Tampa is just awesome and mark my words he will not standby and watch Stamkos signing with Toronto. Long before UFA Stammer will re-sign there.

 

The point is they may have made good moves thus far, but they have no track record yet. That's why I said they were up and coming. All their careers as GM's are brand new. All three may destroy their teams with dumb mistakes in the next 10 years, we don't know. Guys like Chiarelli have lengthier proven track records. That's a guy I trust. And that's why I wouldn't include Nill, Yzerman, and Sakic within the real elite... yet.

 

I personally don't like a lot of the moves Yzerman has made honestly. Nill does seem to be the best so far to me.



#196 DeGraa55

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 05:14 PM

 
The point is they may have made good moves thus far, but they have no track record yet. That's why I said they were up and coming. All their careers as GM's are brand new. All three may destroy their teams with dumb mistakes in the next 10 years, we don't know. Guys like Chiarelli have lengthier proven track records. That's a guy I trust. And that's why I wouldn't include Nill, Yzerman, and Sakic within the real elite... yet.
 
I personally don't like a lot of the moves Yzerman has made honestly. Nill does seem to be the best so far to me.



Ya I agree with what you're saying. Nill yzerman and Sakic are all new in the GM world. I also am not a big holland fan ATM but how can you rate those three or above holland is beyond me.



Holland used to do the moves these guys are doing now. So these guys down the road in ten fifteen years maybe they can lose their touch to maybe not.

#197 DickieDunn

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:05 AM

Yzerman, Nil, and Sakic took over bad or mediocre teams.  They needed to do more and had more room to do so.  The Wings are in a different type of transition.  They have a fairly strong team that should make the playoffs fairly easily unless they have another season where they have multiple top players out at any given time, even if Weiss doesn't return to form.  They also have a pretty deep prospect pool.  The only thing they really lack is a top 10 pick that's a "guaranteed" star like Sequin, Toews, Doughty, etc.  Even if management decided to go for a top 10 pick, I can't see a way of making sure they get bad enough to do that unless they trade Datsyuk and Zetterberg, and probably Kronwall as well.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#198 kliq

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:03 AM

The only thing they really lack is a top 10 pick that's a "guaranteed" star like Sequin, Toews, Doughty, etc. 

 

Exactly! But they still manage to find stars on par with those guys much later in the draft, much more impressive, it doesnt take a genius GM to pick an obvious guy at the top. Though as a Lions fan through the Matt Millen era, maybe I should take back that statement lol.



#199 rick zombo

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:12 AM

Ummm I guess we'd all have to be massive idiots to not realize that Nill and Yzerman are or will be great GMs most likely because of what they learned working for Holland.

Reading some of the s*** on here? Some of you are off the friggin hook.
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#200 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

Ummm I guess we'd all have to be massive idiots to not realize that Nill and Yzerman are or will be great GMs most likely because of what they learned working for Holland.

Reading some of the s*** on here? Some of you are off the friggin hook.

 

I think they've been great so far, and of course cause they've learned from the best. Just not ready to call them the fersure next great thing yet. Yzerman has done some great drafting (didn't he steal some of our scouts? Or was that Nill?) But I think Nill has made better trades and signings.

 

EDIT: And Nill hasn't had much time to draft so far, so it's kind of hard to draw a conclusion on his drafting right now.


Edited by number9, 23 August 2014 - 11:43 AM.






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