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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**



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#201 frankgrimes

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:05 PM

Ummm I guess we'd all have to be massive idiots to not realize that Nill and Yzerman are or will be great GMs most likely because of what they learned working for Holland.

Reading some of the s*** on here? Some of you are off the friggin hook.

 

Don't like it, don't  read it problem solved.


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#202 DickieDunn

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:05 PM


The only thing they really lack is a top 10 pick that's a "guaranteed" star like Sequin, Toews, Doughty, etc. 


 
Exactly! But they still manage to find stars on par with those guys much later in the draft, much more impressive, it doesnt take a genius GM to pick an obvious guy at the top. Though as a Lions fan through the Matt Millen era, maybe I should take back that statement lol.


They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#203 kliq

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:05 PM

They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

 

I disagree, I could name a ton of good to great players they have drafted in late rounds, but we all know who they are. Saying it was lucky is just completely dismissive.



#204 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:57 PM

They got lucky with Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

 

We took guys like Datsyuk in late rounds because we knew we could. No one else scouted him. Or like with Zetterberg, Hakan saw something no one else did. I can't remember but wasn't Zberg like really underweight kid when we drafted him? Or something like that.



#205 Euro_Twins

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:50 PM

 
We took guys like Datsyuk in late rounds because we knew we could. No one else scouted him. Or like with Zetterberg, Hakan saw something no one else did. I can't remember but wasn't Zberg like really underweight kid when we drafted him? Or something like that.


As was datsyuk. They were "small soft euros" and they turned into two of the best nil players of their time.

Other teams get lucky with one guy on their team drafted late that turned into a star. The wings however have stocked the shelves with great talents I'n late rounds and won a cup. We have nyquist, Tatar, and possibly others coming up now that "we just got lucky with" and we had filppula and hudler before too. We are very good at late round drafts and we don't have to rank to win. Its the one thing I can't knock Holland for.

That being said I think he shouldn't have been extended still.

#206 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 09:21 PM

As was datsyuk. They were "small soft euros" and they turned into two of the best nil players of their time.

Other teams get lucky with one guy on their team drafted late that turned into a star. The wings however have stocked the shelves with great talents I'n late rounds and won a cup. We have nyquist, Tatar, and possibly others coming up now that "we just got lucky with" and we had filppula and hudler before too. We are very good at late round drafts and we don't have to rank to win. Its the one thing I can't knock Holland for.

That being said I think he shouldn't have been extended still.

 

But like I asked earlier in this thread, then who do you want?

 

There's not going to be any good GMs on the chopping block this year. Maybe Poile if things go bad? I really doubt Illitch is going to hire some upstart nobody from somewhere else, and there's no one in our organization that can fill Holland's shoes at the moment. If Nill or Yzerman were still around this would be a different story. In that sense maybe we should be blame Mr. I, not Holland, for not letting Holland go sooner and promoting one of those guys.

 

People are mad we're not letting him walk, but forget that we have to replace him with someone. And GM of  the Red Wings are HUGE shoes to fill.


Edited by number9, 23 August 2014 - 09:22 PM.


#207 DickieDunn

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:49 PM

If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#208 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:18 PM

If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.

 

Except other teams pull out maybe 1-2 dark horses a decade and we're riddled with them.

 

Heck I guess we're just really lucky!



#209 number9

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 01:23 AM

Remember when Holland spent 4.9 million on Samuelsson and Tootoo?



#210 DickieDunn

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 09:52 AM


If you get a world class talent late you get lucky, period. Probably half of the top players in any given year are taken in the top 7% of the draft, if not more. I'm not really counting the bribery they were willing to do in the 90s to get the Russians. In the last 20 years they drafted 2 proven elite players late.


 
Except other teams pull out maybe 1-2 dark horses a decade and we're riddled with them.
 
Heck I guess we're just really lucky!


2 in the last decade +.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#211 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:02 AM

2 in the last decade +.


Right and I was pointing out, Tatar, Nyquist, filppula were all drafted later. Find me a team with a better track record for late round drafts. Sure we could rank and get top 10 picks for 5 years. We know that won't happen though

#212 kliq

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:17 AM

2 in the last decade +.

 

Ridiculously dismissive....plus I don't get why we cant count the Russians of the late 80's, early 90's. Every team could have done what the Wings did, some did. The year Fedorov and Vladi were drafted, that was the same year Bure and Yashin were drafted.

 

If you go back a bit farther then 20 years (i'm not count anything in round 1 and 2):

 

Lidstrom - 3rd Round

Konstantinov - 11th round

Fedorov - 4th Round

Zetterberg - 7th round

Datsyuk - 6th Round

Nyquist - 4th round (not elite star yet, IMO will be soon)

Osgood - 3rd Round (say what you want, will likely be HOF when its all said and done)

Holmstrom - 10th Round (definitely not a quote unquote elite player, had his faults, but a damn steal at 10th round)

Franzen - 3rd Round (not an "elite" talent, but the guy has had a very good career)

Filppula - 3rd Round (see above) 

 

To say 2 elite talents in 20+ years which was just luck pretty much just sh**ting on the job the Wings have done in scouting, evaluation, and grooming talent over the past few decades.

I haven't looked, but I don't think another team out there will have this kind of track record. Plus, I'm sure im missing a ton of good players, not to mention all the second round picks and late 1st round picks (ie. Kronwall). Go back and look at plenty of drafts, many many second rounders and late first rounders end of being duds.



#213 DickieDunn

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:47 AM

It's not s***ting on anything, it's honest.  

 

Start with '09, go back 15 years, find higher end players the Wings have taken after the second round.

 

Nyquist is probably going to be a top 6 player, he may or may not be more than a complimentary 60 point player.  Franzen is Franzen.  Filppula is inconsistent from year to year.  Zetterberg in 99, Datsyuk in 98.  So 2 elite players, 3 good guys who aren't elite and in 2 cases aren't even that good for stretches, and some role players.  Sure it's better than some teams, but there are people who act like the Wings get some star player late in the draft every couple years, and they knew for a fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk were going to be stars.  Neither is true.

 

The reason I'm not looking at the older drafts is that the rules have changed completely.  Russians weren't drafted int he 80's because they had to be snuck out of the country.  Not every player was willing to do that, and it took a lot of resources to get the ones who did want to come.  They had to have contacts in Russia, ind the right people to bribe and spend the money to do it, and find a way to get the player, and his family in some cases, out of the country.  The Wings were one of the few teams that had an owner who was able and willing to commit to that.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#214 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:00 PM

It's not s***ting on anything, it's honest.  
 
Start with '09, go back 15 years, find higher end players the Wings have taken after the second round.
 
Nyquist is probably going to be a top 6 player, he may or may not be more than a complimentary 60 point player.  Franzen is Franzen.  Filppula is inconsistent from year to year.  Zetterberg in 99, Datsyuk in 98.  So 2 elite players, 3 good guys who aren't elite and in 2 cases aren't even that good for stretches, and some role players.  Sure it's better than some teams, but there are people who act like the Wings get some star player late in the draft every couple years, and they knew for a fact that Zetterberg and Datsyuk were going to be stars.  Neither is true.
 
The reason I'm not looking at the older drafts is that the rules have changed completely.  Russians weren't drafted int he 80's because they had to be snuck out of the country.  Not every player was willing to do that, and it took a lot of resources to get the ones who did want to come.  They had to have contacts in Russia, ind the right people to bribe and spend the money to do it, and find a way to get the player, and his family in some cases, out of the country.  The Wings were one of the few teams that had an owner who was able and willing to commit to that.


The red wings are far and away the best draft team and its widely recognized as such even by other teams announcers. We don't get high end draft spots cause we never miss the playoffs. So no we didn't get a toews, Kane, ovie, Malkin, Crosby, Tavares, or so on. We make our own superstars. Nyquist WILL be a star, so there you go, Tatar may be a grind it top 6 tough as nails type player, but the goose is loose, and everyone knows it. We won a cup through the draft basically. All these teams tanking to win... The same three teams keep winning and the sabres, islanders, Panthers, oilers, as well as others always getting these top 5 picks but somehow never win are getting top end talents every year. We keep winning without tanking.

#215 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:45 PM

Talk about overhype ... Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha. It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years. The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner. The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.

Edited by frankgrimes, 24 August 2014 - 02:48 PM.

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#216 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:57 PM

Talk about overhype ...Nyquist could turn into a star but it's also possible him only becoming a top 6 contributor and for me that's good enough.neither Nyquist nor Tatar will turn into Z or Pasha.It's funny reading how the team keeps winning although the best they've done is barely making the playoffs and not even sniffing at the third round dice almost 6 years.The sabers will have a very dangerous team in a few years and the isles where held back by an incompetent management and a penny pinching owner.The reality is also really simple the Holland will need some homerun drafts and prepare the Wings much better for the post Z and Pasha era, than he did with the post Lidas one.


I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...

#217 DickieDunn

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:04 PM

You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round.  Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th.  Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks.  Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second.  Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.


I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...

 

They didn't.  Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.


Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#218 Euro_Twins

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:08 PM

You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round.  Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th.  Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks.  Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second.  Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.

 
They didn't.  Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.


Ya, two of the best players in the league aren't comparable to two of the best players of the league. They were in a much higher scoring league then the one z and d grew up in, no one will ever rack up the points those guys did anymore. But we replaced them with some "possible top 6 complimentary pieces"

#219 frankgrimes

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

.
I remember when z and d would never turn into Stevie and feds...


Which they never did so that example is just proving my point

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The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..

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#220 DickieDunn

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 03:42 PM

You need good scouting and proper development in order to get value from your draft picks, as well as a solid plan (looking at you, Oilers), but a high percentage of the elite players come from the top half of the first round.  Last year's top 8 scorers were first round picks, 3 first overall, a 2nd, a 5th, then 19th, 22nd, and 28th.  Looking at the top 30 scorers, only 6 were taken outside of the first round, and 18 of the 30 were top 10 picks.  Looking at defensemen by TOI/gm, 12 of the top 30 were first rounders, and 7 were taken in the second.  Given that 18 year old defensemen are harder to project, that makes sense, but it still shows that you're far more likely to get a #1 defenseman in the first round than you are in any other round.
 
They didn't.  Yzerman and Fedorov were better players.

Ya, two of the best players in the league aren't comparable to two of the best players of the league. They were in a much higher scoring league then the one z and d grew up in, no one will ever rack up the points those guys did anymore. But we replaced them with some "possible top 6 complimentary pieces"



Compare how Fedorov and Yzerman compared to their contemporaries to how Datsyuk and Zetterberg compare with theirs. Yzerman and Fedorov were 2 of the best ever.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!






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