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Holland signs 4 year extension with wings **MOD Warning Post 130**



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#161 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 07:27 PM

Spezza and Kesler either shot down a trade here or their teams thought that they had a better offer from someone else. If Mantha or Jurco were requirements for either, I'm nor sure either would be worth that. But let's say the Hawks want to move Keith or Seabrook. Would toy move Nyquist, Mantha, Hackman, and a second for him?

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#162 number9

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 07:48 PM

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

 

When and who are you thinking about???

 

2008 = Stuart

 

2007 = Bertuzzi

 

Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.

 

So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not. 



#163 DickieDunn

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:15 PM


Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.


 
When and who are you thinking about???
 
2008 = Stuart
 
2007 = Bertuzzi
 
Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.
 
So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not. 


Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#164 DeGraa55

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

 
When and who are you thinking about???
 
2008 = Stuart
 
2007 = Bertuzzi
 
Other than those two we have zero other significant trades post lockout. And Bertuzzi left after only 18 games with us, so that trade actually hurt us considering we lost Matthias in it and he didn't re-sign. A sort of Legwand Jarnkrok scenario.
 
So essentially we have added one significant piece via trade in the 8 seasons of the cap world. So no, we didn't used to be trading for those guys and suddenly now are not. 


Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.

Spezza and Kesler either shot down a trade here or their teams thought that they had a better offer from someone else. If Mantha or Jurco were requirements for either, I'm nor sure either would be worth that.But let's say the Hawks want to move Keith or Seabrook. Would toy move Nyquist, Mantha, Hackman, and a second for him?


It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx

#165 kliq

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:34 PM

 

Ehrhoff, Niskanen are a big deal because they would have fixed an ever increasing hole since Lidas left.

 

Holland and some fans need to realize the time where players would come here for less are over. The Wings nowadays are just one of the teams asking for their service and if the money isn't comparable or hence better they won't sign. Overpayment and taking risks are part of a  GMs job, UFA is also known as overpayment day but guess what ? I would have given Suter, Parise even 15 years if it means we are getting to see another cup for Mr. I, Pasha and Z after they've done so much for this former TOP destination in the NHL.

 

Whats the point of having capsapce if the top guys aren't hitting UFA anymore or you aren't going to use it t o your  advantage ? Add to that it's not like the capspace has been used wisely this off-season either, overpayment for 2 players and third on the cusp of getting re-signed which doesn't leave a lot for a local hero (Danny D) is that smart cap management ? I don't think so.

 

Also Holland didn't take a risks and still lost a trades by a landslide (Poilé absolutely schooled him) so losing a big trade is much better than getting schooled by another gm, as did Yzerman two years ago..

 

As for McDavid the competition is fierce and tough you need to outtank: Buffalo, Florida, Winnipeg, Edmonton, New York, Calgary and maybe even Phoenix but keep in mind the second pick is also a great one Eichel will be a star in this league too.

 

I think you and I have a HUGE difference in opinion on the skill level of Erhoff and Niskanen.

Niskanen has played in the NHL for 7 seasons and his points totals are the following: 26, 35, 15, 10, 21, 14, 46.

 

His 46 points last season statistically seem more like an outlier then a true reflection of his ability. This should be a huge red flag to GM's and I am glad Holland didnt give in to the pressure and outbid Washington, I dont want a guy for 7 years for the kind of money that Washington threw at him. If an impact D-man was available in UFA (say a Shea Weber caliber D-man), I would be the first person to say sign him to a long term deal for top dollars, but Niskanen is not that guy. He would not be the difference in us winning a cup or not winning a cup. He may make us slightly better for maybe a few years, then his cap hit would hinder us a few years into his contract.

 

Ehroff is 32 and appears to be regressing. I believe (I could be wrong) he saw the year Niskanen had offensively playing with Crosby/Malkin and co. and signed a one year deal hoping to up his value so next year he can sign a huge contract. Also, not a guy I feel puts us over the top. I would have loved if we got him at 1 year, 4mil but from what I have heard he wanted much more term/$ to play for the Wings. Glad we didn't overpay.

 

Whats the point of having capspace? So when your core become UFA/RFA, you can sign them to long term deals rather then lose them. I would be totally fine with signing the guys above to 1 year deals to see what happens, but that wasn't an option. I don't want a stupid signing now to hurt us in 2016 or 2020 etc. when we need to re-sign guys like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Mantha etc.

 

The Nashville trade.......it may end up being a horrible trade, I'm not going to argue either way, but you cant know that now. In 3 years we will know if that trade was bad or not.  


 



#166 kliq

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:44 PM

 

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

 

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

 

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

 

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

 

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

 

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

 

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming? 

 

Let me ask you, who are the UFA's you wish he signed over the past few years? Weiss and Alfie were two of the best last year (projection wise) and this year was filled with above average/good players.

 

 

Elite was the wrong word but top line or second line is what I meant. And that's be guys like Ryan spezza Kessler and the list for son. These kinds of guys are traded every year and we used to be trading for them, now were not.

 

Those two in particular, I am glad we didn't trade for. I admit that they are both good players, but they are extremely injury prone which is the last thing we need to add to a roster filled with guys with injury history. Then factor in that guys like Mantha and Jurco and company were the asking price, I am extremely glad we didnt pull off a big trade. I am okay trading for a star, but a want a young star, who doesn't have a ton of red flags and those guys aren't typically available.

 

 


Edited by kliq, 18 August 2014 - 08:45 PM.


#167 number9

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Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:56 PM

Losing Matthias has had zero impact. He's not good.

 

He made the NHL and we didn't re-sign Bertuzzi. I wasn't commenting on Matthias as player, but on the trade being an insignificant one for us.

 

Pre cap we were. Now were not and the team is on a steady decline. We also use to sign notable free agents.

It was typically nyquist Tatar or mantha as the starting price from what I heard and yes if that's what it took only one of those three plus different prospects it should've been done(more so Tatar or nyquist over mantha IMO). But it would depend on the player were recieving and contract status etx etx

 

Yup. And precap worlds are not the same as post cap world bud. Spending is a whole lot more conservative now. You can't compare the teams actions now to their actions then. Those teams operated under different rules.

 

And we haven't been on the decline since our trading ended either. Our trading culture ended with Lang and the lockout in 04, and that was coming out of 1st and 2nd round exits in 03 and 04. That continued till 06 and ended in 09. We improved just fine and won a cup without significant trading or selling the prospect pool, in fact it was prospects we had developed who helped contribute to that cup.



#168 DeGraa55

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:28 AM

 
Let me ask you, who are the UFA's you wish he signed over the past few years? Weiss and Alfie were two of the best last year (projection wise) and this year was filled with above average/good players.
 
 
 
Those two in particular, I am glad we didn't trade for. I admit that they are both good players, but they are extremely injury prone which is the last thing we need to add to a roster filled with guys with injury history. Then factor in that guys like Mantha and Jurco and company were the asking price, I am extremely glad we didnt pull off a big trade. I am okay trading for a star, but a want a young star, who doesn't have a ton of red flags and those guys aren't typically available.
 
 



Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.

How about sequin?

#169 kliq

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:35 AM

Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.

How about sequin?

 

I would love to have Seguin, but I dont see Boston trading a young stud like him to a division rival.

 

Ryan wouldn't have been a bad choice, I remember there were rumors about that.



#170 LeftWinger

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 08:26 AM

its just my opinion, but this is bad news. I hate it and feel its going to push the Wings even further down the list of desirable places to play. This is not good.


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#171 DickieDunn

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 08:35 AM


Like Ryan? Bobby Ryan when he was first traded still had like 3 years left on deal.
How about sequin?


 
I would love to have Seguin, but I dont see Boston trading a young stud like him to a division rival.
 
Ryan wouldn't have been a bad choice, I remember there were rumors about that.


Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#172 kliq

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 10:24 AM

Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.

 

If that was the case, I'm glad we didnt pull the trigger. I see much more upside with Gus then Ryan, nothing against Ryan.



#173 DickieDunn

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:22 AM


Wasn't the rumor Nyquist, a d prospect comparable to Nossen and a first? I remember that the guys the Wings would send being older than the Sens package.


 
If that was the case, I'm glad we didnt pull the trigger. I see much more upside with Gus then Ryan, nothing against Ryan.


Nyquist certainly coasts less than Ryan.

Oh this young man has had a very trying rookie season, with the litigation, the notoriety, his subsequent deportation to Canada and that country's refusal to accept him, well, I guess that's more than most 21-year-olds can handle... Ogie Ogilthorpe!


#174 frankgrimes

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

Nyquist certainly coasts less than Ryan.


Till his injury Ryan has scored 30 or more goals every season and he did that while always playing on a budget team. To me this is very impressive love the speed of Nyquist but I wouldn't even think twice about trading him for Ryan that's an absolute streak.

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#175 Son of a Wing

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 01:16 PM

Till his injury Ryan has scored 30 or more goals every season and he did that while always playing on a budget team. To me this is very impressive love the speed of Nyquist but I wouldn't even think twice about trading him for Ryan that's an absolute streak.

 

Playing on a budget team?  

 

Yeah it was really tough playing with Getzlaf and Perry for all four 30 goal seasons...

 

Ryan is a very good player but lets not act like he was fighting that kind of adversity...


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#176 Euro_Twins

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:27 PM

 
Playing on a budget team?  
 
Yeah it was really tough playing with Getzlaf and Perry for all four 30 goal seasons...
 
Ryan is a very good player but lets not act like he was fighting that kind of adversity...


Budget team... Maybe, but as you pointed out, it certainly wasn't a budget line.

#177 number9

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:44 PM

Consider if the Sens had never traded for Ryan, but had still traded away Spezza this year.

 

Silfverberg - Turris - Michalek

Zibenajad - Legwand - Macarthur

Noesen - Lazar - Chiasson

Greening - Smith - Neil

 

Plus you have prospects Nick Ritchie, Alex Guptill, and Nick Paul who you get through the trades, as well as an extra 2nd rd pick in 2015. That's on top of all the prospects they already have.

 

That forward lineup to me is a lot younger, and better balanced. Just lacking elite talents. However many of those players could develop into elite talents.

 

I think they would have been better off looking like that. They're certainly not near a cup favorite with Ryan on their team right now. 



#178 wings4thecup06

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 04:29 PM

Consider if the Sens had never traded for Ryan, but had still traded away Spezza this year.

 

Silfverberg - Turris - Michalek

Zibenajad - Legwand - Macarthur

Noesen - Lazar - Chiasson

Greening - Smith - Neil

 

Plus you have prospects Nick Ritchie, Alex Guptill, and Nick Paul who you get through the trades, as well as an extra 2nd rd pick in 2015. That's on top of all the prospects they already have.

 

That forward lineup to me is a lot younger, and better balanced. Just lacking elite talents. However many of those players could develop into elite talents.

 

I think they would have been better off looking like that. They're certainly not near a cup favorite with Ryan on their team right now. 

 

I don't think, however, that when they traded for Ryan, that they expected things to go **** up as it did for them this season. But it is what it is. One less weaker team in our division is always good. 


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#179 number9

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:10 PM

 

I don't think, however, that when they traded for Ryan, that they expected things to go **** up as it did for them this season. But it is what it is. One less weaker team in our division is always good. 

 

of course



#180 anthonyn66

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Posted 19 August 2014 - 05:20 PM

 

I understand that nobody is in the room, but you can't give the guy a pass on the bad because of it and only 'see' the good when someone signs. Ultimately, Holland's track record in FA signings isn't that good the last several years.

 

List of Holland's big signings (~$2M+/year) since the last Cup:

08-09 - Marian Hossa (1yr - not re-signed)

09-10 - None

10-11 - None

11-12 - Ian White (2yrs - not re-signed)

12-13 - Jordin Tootoo (3yrs - compliance buy-out)

12-13 - Carlo Colaiacovo (2yrs - compliance buy-out)

13-14 - Daniel Alfredsson (1yr - not re-signed as yet)

13-14 - Stephen Weiss (5yrs - played 26 games and scored 4 pts in year 1)

14-15 - Kyle Quincey (2yrs for a player Detroit was ready to walk away from)

 

The Suter/Parise snub was at least 'understandable' given the same money/term from Minnesota and the connection the players felt. Having Niskanen, Boyle, and Erhoff walk away from potentially more money in Detroit (in some reports) is more concerning. The fault isn't all on Holland, for sure, but top management should be looking in the mirror and trying to determine how to get better regardless of where you lay blame.

 

And, as someone else points out, FA isn't the only key to success. You have to draft well, too. So how many top-6 forwards or top-4 defensemen has Holland picked up in the last six-seven drafts?

 

2008-09 - Gustav Nyquist

2009-10 - Tomas Tatar (maybe)

2010-11 - None

2011-12 - None

2012-13 - None

2013-14 - Anthony Mantha (projected)

 

Drafts are much harder to judge especially for a draft-and-develop team like Detroit. The Wings do have a couple kids who still project well, too. But a lot don't. They are bottom-six / bottom pair grinders. It's drafting by a team/GM which relies on supplementing his home-grown talent with pick-of-the-litter FAs. You can't draft grinders and then not come through on the FAs...

 

The Wings haven't been a team which settles for 'serviceable' over the past few years. Is that what Detroit is becoming? 

 

Jurco, Ouellet, Sproul say hi

That makes a rate of 1 a year since 08-09! Pretty sure that's better than most teams...especially considering we draft middle of the pack, low, or give away our first every year







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