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Datsyuk or Fedorov?


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#41 toby91_ca

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:28 AM

Euro_Twins....if you are purely looking at stats, I don't think Datsyuk has a chance at the Hall at all at this point.  804 points in 824 is good enough?  Don't think so.  Lindros has 865 points in 760 games and has a Hart and Pearson...he's not in.

 

My personal starting discussion point used to be 1,000 points AND over 1 ppg.  Anything less than that would be very difficult, but there would be exceptions (e.g. several high end trophies)



#42 kliq

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:57 AM

And actually showed up to play and perform well.

 

Exactly my point, so ridiculously talented on offense an defense, and when he was on and showed up, he was on! Though some nights.....nothing.

 

Euro_Twins....if you are purely looking at stats, I don't think Datsyuk has a chance at the Hall at all at this point.  804 points in 824 is good enough?  Don't think so.  Lindros has 865 points in 760 games and has a Hart and Pearson...he's not in.

 

My personal starting discussion point used to be 1,000 points AND over 1 ppg.  Anything less than that would be very difficult, but there would be exceptions (e.g. several high end trophies)

 

Not fair to compare points per game, different era's. 90's were a different time, I can only imagine the amount of assists Datsyuk would have back then. Wasn't it only like '93 when Mogilny and Selanne scored like 76 goals.



#43 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:49 AM

 

Exactly my point, so ridiculously talented on offense an defense, and when he was on and showed up, he was on! Though some nights.....nothing.

 

 

Not fair to compare points per game, different era's. 90's were a different time, I can only imagine the amount of assists Datsyuk would have back then. Wasn't it only like '93 when Mogilny and Selanne scored like 76 goals.

 

And our 90s team was like... out of this world. Datsyuk would have had the best linemates available like Feds did.



#44 wings4thecup06

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 11:59 AM

Euro_Twins....if you are purely looking at stats, I don't think Datsyuk has a chance at the Hall at all at this point.  804 points in 824 is good enough?  Don't think so.  Lindros has 865 points in 760 games and has a Hart and Pearson...he's not in.

 

My personal starting discussion point used to be 1,000 points AND over 1 ppg.  Anything less than that would be very difficult, but there would be exceptions (e.g. several high end trophies)

 

I agree with you about your criteria, somewhat. The thing with Lindros is that he was never on the ice long enough to show how truly good he was. If he hadn't got destroyed by Stevens, and a few others multiple times he'd no doubt be in the hall by now. 

 

Datsyuk will probably end up with around 1,000 points if he stays healthy. Combine that with his defensive attributes and I think a case could be made for him making the hall. All you have to do is swing by the Pavel Datsyuk show thread on this forum and you've got a great start! 


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#45 GMRwings1983

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:59 PM

Here's a good, long thread from HFboards back in 2012, talking about Datsyuk's HOF status.  

 

http://hfboards.hock...d.php?t=1121269

 

 

I think he gets in.  If 1,000 points is the criteria, there won't be many guys making the HOF after Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin retire.  How many 1,000 point players do you think the future generations will produce?  Not much I think.  Doesn't mean there won't be guys making the Hall of Fame anymore.  


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#46 Internet.Unknown

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:26 PM

Datsyuk much more complete player to me. Although I can not imagine the number Federov would have put up now.

 

Have people forgotten that Fedorov played defense, scored 56 goals while winning the Selke, and often played with Shawn Burr on a TKO line shadowing the opposition's top players? Fedorov was a BEAST on both ends of the ice. He was very much a complete player.



#47 GMRwings1983

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 07:49 PM

 

Have people forgotten that Fedorov played defense, scored 56 goals while winning the Selke, and often played with Shawn Burr on a TKO line shadowing the opposition's top players? Fedorov was a BEAST on both ends of the ice. He was very much a complete player.

 

After Bobby Orr and Red Kelly, Fedorov is probably the most complete player in history.  


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#48 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 08:43 PM

 

Have people forgotten that Fedorov played defense, scored 56 goals while winning the Selke, and often played with Shawn Burr on a TKO line shadowing the opposition's top players? Fedorov was a BEAST on both ends of the ice. He was very much a complete player.

 

That was a different time. Sheppard had 52 goals, and Kozlov scored 34!  :w00t:

 

We'll be lucky if any of our forwards hit 30 goals this season. 



#49 GMRwings1983

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 09:36 PM

Euro_Twins....if you are purely looking at stats, I don't think Datsyuk has a chance at the Hall at all at this point.  804 points in 824 is good enough?  Don't think so.  Lindros has 865 points in 760 games and has a Hart and Pearson...he's not in.

 

My personal starting discussion point used to be 1,000 points AND over 1 ppg.  Anything less than that would be very difficult, but there would be exceptions (e.g. several high end trophies)

 

As I said a few posts higher, how many players in the future will hit 1,000 points?  Not even close to what it was in the past.  

 

That makes it sound like other than Crosby or Ovechkin, nobody will make the HOF in 10 or 15 years.  The criteria will have to change with the times.  Unless they do the ceremony every year with only one or two players getting inducted with each class.

 

This is also the reason I think guys like Andreychuk and Cicarrelli will eventually get in, because there won't be as many huge numbers guys to choose from that aren't already in.  When guys like Andreychuk get picked, then the Datsyuks of the world will start getting selected.  

 

I don't think Pavel will be a first ballot selection, but I do think he'll get in eventually.  Some guys get in when they're like 60.    


Edited by GMRwings1983, 23 August 2014 - 09:37 PM.

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#50 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:09 PM

So say, in the future, they need to select 5 HOFers, and it comes to this generation. The decade after the first lockout. Who would be the top forwards of this era?

 

Crosby

Ovechkin

Datsyuk

Stamkos

Malkin

St. Louis

Toews

 

Besides Ovechkin and Crosby, those other four can be argued either way as to is better I think.

 

Those players were just off the top of my head, so please add anyone I forgot.



#51 GMRwings1983

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:32 PM

So say, in the future, they need to select 5 HOFers, and it comes to this generation. The decade after the first lockout. Who would be the top forwards of this era?

 

Crosby

Ovechkin

Datsyuk

Stamkos

Malkin

St. Louis

Toews

 

Besides Ovechkin and Crosby, those other four can be argued either way as to is better I think.

 

Those players were just off the top of my head, so please add anyone I forgot.

 

Malkin is definitely going to be rated higher.  A lot more important trophies and postseason All Star teams than Datsyuk.  In 2009, he had arguably the greatest playoff any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux has ever had.  

 

Stamkos and Toews at their current rate will be rated ahead of Datsyuk.  Once again, more individual offensive trophies (sorry Selke) and postseason All Star teams.  

 

St. Louis has a Hart trophy, and has been a tremendous player ever since he left Calgary.  He and Datsyuk could be rated similarly when it's all said and done with.    


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#52 number9

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 10:46 PM

 

Malkin is definitely going to be rated higher.  A lot more important trophies and postseason All Star teams than Datsyuk.  In 2009, he had arguably the greatest playoff any forward not named Gretzky or Lemieux has ever had.  

 

Stamkos and Toews at their current rate will be rated ahead of Datsyuk.  Once again, more individual offensive trophies (sorry Selke) and postseason All Star teams.  

 

St. Louis has a Hart trophy, and has been a tremendous player ever since he left Calgary.  He and Datsyuk could be rated similarly when it's all said and done with.    

 

But can they do magic?



#53 Nev

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 02:38 AM

Euro_Twins....if you are purely looking at stats, I don't think Datsyuk has a chance at the Hall at all at this point.  804 points in 824 is good enough?  Don't think so.  Lindros has 865 points in 760 games and has a Hart and Pearson...he's not in.

 

My personal starting discussion point used to be 1,000 points AND over 1 ppg.  Anything less than that would be very difficult, but there would be exceptions (e.g. several high end trophies)

 

GMR has nailed it.  If that is your criteria, then only a handful of players drafted during the Bettman era will make the HOF.  One only has to look at the list of total NHL points, I think Thornton is the highest ranked Bettman era player and he was something like 37th last time I checked.  The list is dominated by guys drafted in the 70s and 80s.  Under your criteria, all the accumulators who played in the 80s will get in ahead of the superstars of the 21st century, which is just wrong. 

 

Plus Pav's points can't be looked at in isolation, the guy won 3 consecutive Selke's whilst averaging 92 points and winning a cup.  He's a top-10 all time defensive forward.  Throw in his jaw dropping playstyle and he is just a unique player.


"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#54 Aznknight

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 07:59 AM

Fedorov.

Feds carried this team in a bump and grind decade where Dats would have been shut down.

#55 Barrie

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 10:14 AM

Dats also has 532 assists already. He could easily be over 600-650 when he retires and is just shy of Beijing a ppg player his entire career (804 points in 824 games) that's good enough for me, without even taking into consideration his two way play. That just puts him over the top.

 

Right. Also another comparison between the two, Dats is only 22 career Assists behind Fedorov. When Pavs career is over, I don't think there's much of a debate if he's a HOF player.

 

They're different types of players. Fedorov was more of a Russian style power forward (a Russian power forward is different then a North America power forward), Datsyuk, as mentioned is more like Larionov, but takes more shots and can take and give out a hit.


Fedorov.

Feds carried this team in a bump and grind decade where Dats would have been shut down.

 

I don't know about that. Prior to 2006-07 Datsyuk got pushed around. He got into the weight room put on muscle, and he went to the next level. I think he would have been fine in the 1990's. Larionov didn't have much trouble in a rougher era.


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#56 number9

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 11:59 AM

Fedorov.

Feds carried this team in a bump and grind decade where Dats would have been shut down.

 

Other teams players have said the most surprising thing about Datsyuk is how strong he is, cause he doesn't look it, and how difficult that makes him to push off the puck 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Oy37oxyUUAE



#57 unsaddleddonald

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:08 AM

I think something that really works in Pav's favor regarding the HOF is the idea that most people have regarded him as at least a top-5 player in the league for the better half of a decade now. For 2-3 years, a lot of people considered him the best player in the game.

 

I think that reputation will give him a big push.



#58 GMRwings1983

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:18 PM

I think something that really works in Pav's favor regarding the HOF is the idea that most people have regarded him as at least a top-5 player in the league for the better half of a decade now. For 2-3 years, a lot of people considered him the best player in the game.

 

I think that reputation will give him a big push.

 

Best two-way player.  Outside of this forum, not many people have said he's a better player than Crosby or Malkin, or should be rated higher.  

 

Seems like people now think Tayes is the best two-way player in the game.  


Edited by GMRwings1983, 25 August 2014 - 01:18 PM.

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#59 DeGraa55

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:32 PM

 
Best two-way player.  Outside of this forum, not many people have said he's a better player than Crosby or Malkin, or should be rated higher.  
 
Seems like people now think Tayes is the best two-way player in the game.  


Crosby and makin are still better than toews IMO. The thing that he is better is in leadership.

#60 number9

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 01:58 PM

Both of them should be in the Hall. Fedorov started his career earlier and had better seasons, so it's hard to argue Datsyuk is the better player right now. Fedorov really fell off after leaving Detroit though, so if Datsyuk keeps up a better pace through the end of his career an argument might be made then.
Bowman did that to f with him not because he wasn't playing defense.

 

Who told you that, Bowman?

 

To Feds credit he did very well playing defense, and i believe the Caps experimented with him at D late in his career when they didn't have enough Dmen on the roster.







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