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Hockeytown0001

Selanne would still play if Boudreau wasn't Ducks coach

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Babs has 2 back to back gold medals in different ice conditions. Boudreau and Quenville 0

And Mike Keenan won a KHL Championship. So what? Stanley Cups are harder to win that Olympic Golds, World Championships, KHL titles, AHL titles, or Nintendo Blades of Steel tournaments. And by that measure Babcock's ring fingers are a little light.

Boudreau's not a great coach. He's decent. But if people are going to use his lack of success in the playoffs to denigrate him, then they're saying the playoffs matter more than regular season success. And if that's true then Babcock isn't the best coach in the NHL. He'd be tied with about ten other guys for third best. So pick your poison.

Edited by kipwinger

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And Mike Keenan won a KHL Championship. So what? Stanley Cups are harder to win that Olympic Golds, World Championships, KHL titles, AHL titles, or Nintendo Blades of Steel tournaments. And by that measure Babcock's ring fingers are a little light.

Boudreau's not a great coach. He's decent. But if people are going to use his lack of success in the playoffs to denigrate him, then they're saying the playoffs matter more than regular season success. And if that's true then Babcock isn't the best coach in the NHL. He'd be tied with about ten other guys for third best. So pick your poison.

KHL is at best the third best league in the world so no comparison. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in all of sports yes but winning Gold at the Olympics back on back on different conditions is impressive. Yeah Babcock only has one Stanley Cup but he at least had this team in the WCF (Ducks had two hall of famers on their blue line...), SCF (Pens were better...) something Boudreaus has never accomplished.

I think Boudreaus systems are build for the regular season but for whatever reason aren't working when other teams are playing tight defense and up their physicality. He is also known to create unneccessary goalie drama before the start of playoffs.

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KHL is at best the third best league in the world so no comparison. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in all of sports yes but winning Gold at the Olympics back on back on different conditions is impressive. Yeah Babcock only has one Stanley Cup but he at least had this team in the WCF (Ducks had two hall of famers on their blue line...), SCF (Pens were better...) something Boudreaus has never accomplished.

I think Boudreaus systems are build for the regular season but for whatever reason aren't working when other teams are playing tight defense and up their physicality. He is also known to create unneccessary goalie drama before the start of playoffs.

Dont forget, he was also 1 game away from a Stanley Cup in 2003 with Anaheim.

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KHL is at best the third best league in the world so no comparison. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy to win in all of sports yes but winning Gold at the Olympics back on back on different conditions is impressive. Yeah Babcock only has one Stanley Cup but he at least had this team in the WCF (Ducks had two hall of famers on their blue line...), SCF (Pens were better...) something Boudreaus has never accomplished.

I think Boudreaus systems are build for the regular season but for whatever reason aren't working when other teams are playing tight defense and up their physicality. He is also known to create unneccessary goalie drama before the start of playoffs.

What's the second best league in the world, in your opinion? Swedish?

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Yeah I think the Swedish Elite League is the second best league in the world. The amount of talent Sweden produces is just flatout amazing.

As a Swede I'm sad to say that you're definitely wrong. We have a lot of young talent but overall the SHL has nothing on the KHL. All the best players from the SHL that can't make it in the NHL go to the KHL these days. The Swedish league was a lot better just 5years ago before the KHL started draining us of good players.

Edited by Ekmanc

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As a Swede I'm sad to say that you're definitely wrong. We have a lot of young talent but overall the SHL has nothing on the KHL. All the best players from the SHL that can't make it in the NHL go to the KHL these days. The Swedish league was a lot better just 5years ago before the KHL started draining us of good players.

In Soviet Russia player drain you!

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Yeah I think the Swedish Elite League is the second best league in the world. The amount of talent Sweden produces is just flatout amazing.

As a Swede I'm sad to say that you're definitely wrong. We have a lot of young talent but overall the SHL has nothing on the KHL. All the best players from the SHL that can't make it in the NHL go to the KHL these days. The Swedish league was a lot better just 5years ago before the KHL started draining us of good players.

The khl has a big problem, the skill may be there but the owners - Medvedev controls everything - come off a bit scary. I know I wouldn't want to be the guy that scores the game winning goal while some of the more powerful owners are watching. Also there are stories of players not getting paid all of a sudden and the biggest problem.. It's a plastic league just like the CHL in Europe so the khl will never be able to create a culture because there are too many different teams from different countries. Maybe it's because I despise the idea behind their league but I honestly believe that the SEL is close and in some ways better now structured don't forget the much higher quality of life.

But I get what you are saying it's definitely a threat for the top leagues in Europe

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He could have used Selänne on the PP, thats where hes always excelled

Judging by Selanne and his comments that's exactly what he wanted. I don't know I think Boudreau could be a very difficult coach to work for kind of a Carlyle type. All the experience in the world but bad at handling players...

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The khl has a big problem, the skill may be there but the owners - Medvedev controls everything - come off a bit scary. I know I wouldn't want to be the guy that scores the game winning goal while some of the more powerful owners are watching. Also there are stories of players not getting paid all of a sudden and the biggest problem.. It's a plastic league just like the CHL in Europe so the khl will never be able to create a culture because there are too many different teams from different countries. Maybe it's because I despise the idea behind their league but I honestly believe that the SEL is close and in some ways better now structured don't forget the much higher quality of life. But I get what you are saying it's definitely a threat for the top leagues in Europe

No doubt, one would rather live in Sweden than in Russia, all other things equal, but what has that to do with the relative strength of hockey leagues? After all, Brazil is not a top place to live either, but that doesn't seem to diminish their strength in soccer any.

As to KHL being an artificial league, that is definitely true in the financial sense, they don't earn nearly enough to cover their costs, but as long as the state or quasi-state sponsors money pours in, the quality of players assembled there is second only to the NHL, IMO.

That can't last in the long run, of course. Sooner or later the KHL financial bubble will burst. But until then, they are a very strong league. The top 3 to 6 KHL teams may be competitive in the NHL. Some of them may even make the playoffs :)

Edited by sibiriak

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No doubt, one would rather live in Sweden than in Russia, all other things equal, but what has that to do with the relative strength of hockey leagues? After all, Brazil is not a top place to live either, but that doesn't seem to diminish their strength in soccer any.

As to KHL being an artificial league, that is definitely true in the financial sense, they don't earn nearly enough to cover their costs, but as long as the state or quasi-state sponsors money pours in, the quality of players assembled there is second only to the NHL, IMO.

That can't last in the long run, of course. Sooner or later the KHL financial bubble will burst. But until then, they are a very strong league. The top 3 to 6 KHL teams may be competitive in the NHL. Some of them may even make the playoffs :)

It has nothing to do with the relative strength of the league but a lot with development, the development of hockey players in Sweden is top notch (including facilities) and I don't think Russia can compare in that regard. As for your bubble comment that's exactly what will happen at some point in time and save for some bigger clubs I don't think all will survive when that happens. btw. I also don't think this CHL experiment will last long.

as for Selanne: his hockey school should do wonders for finnish talent.

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He could have used Selänne on the PP, thats where hes always excelled

Selanne was fourth among forwards in powerplay ice time per game, behind Getzlaf, Perry, and Bonino (all of whom massive outproduced him). He did get used. He didn't produce. Should they have given him more time? And if so, at who's expense?

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Selanne was fourth among forwards in powerplay ice time per game, behind Getzlaf, Perry, and Bonino (all of whom massive outproduced him). He did get used. He didn't produce. Should they have given him more time? And if so, at who's expense?

But look who was ahead of him in PP ice time in the playoffs and what production was generated... It's impossible, and useless really, to go back and second guess every minute detail, but Pat Maroon played twice as many minutes on the power play in the playoffs as Selanne and generated 0 more points during that time. So Selanne was, at the least, more productive than Patrick Maroon - Selanne 4pt in 25 min PP, Maroon 4 pt in 42 min PP.

I know your reference was to regular season, though. Your characterization of 'massive' isn't quite correct, though. If you look at straight numbers, yes, the Ducks top unit - Getzlaf (23 PPP), Perry (18), Bonino (20) all out-produced Selanne (8) on the second unit. But all played a 'massive' number more minutes with the man advantage... If you look at production per minute of PP time, there were no 'massive' differences - Getzlaf 0.08 PPP/min, Perry 0.06 PPP/min, Bonino 0.09 & Selanne 0.05. Selanne still underperformed by comparison, but not really to the degree you suggested. [For reference, Pat Maroon scored 4 PPP in the regular season at a rate of 0.037 PPP/min.]

It seemed to me that Selanne's frustration was more about how he was used or under-used in the playoffs in comparison to a guy like Pat Maroon. Again, swapping Selanne for Maroon on the PP might not have been the exact fix that Anaheim needed to close the deal, but leaving Maroon out there to chew up unproductive minutes is a Boudreau (management) choice that is open to criticism, especially given the fact that Anaheim lost the series...

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But look who was ahead of him in PP ice time in the playoffs and what production was generated... It's impossible, and useless really, to go back and second guess every minute detail, but Pat Maroon played twice as many minutes on the power play in the playoffs as Selanne and generated 0 more points during that time. So Selanne was, at the least, more productive than Patrick Maroon - Selanne 4pt in 25 min PP, Maroon 4 pt in 42 min PP.

I know your reference was to regular season, though. Your characterization of 'massive' isn't quite correct, though. If you look at straight numbers, yes, the Ducks top unit - Getzlaf (23 PPP), Perry (18), Bonino (20) all out-produced Selanne (8) on the second unit. But all played a 'massive' number more minutes with the man advantage... If you look at production per minute of PP time, there were no 'massive' differences - Getzlaf 0.08 PPP/min, Perry 0.06 PPP/min, Bonino 0.09 & Selanne 0.05. Selanne still underperformed by comparison, but not really to the degree you suggested. [For reference, Pat Maroon scored 4 PPP in the regular season at a rate of 0.037 PPP/min.]

It seemed to me that Selanne's frustration was more about how he was used or under-used in the playoffs in comparison to a guy like Pat Maroon. Again, swapping Selanne for Maroon on the PP might not have been the exact fix that Anaheim needed to close the deal, but leaving Maroon out there to chew up unproductive minutes is a Boudreau (management) choice that is open to criticism, especially given the fact that Anaheim lost the series...

Understood, but no coach is going to give you playoff icetime without considering regular season production. Like any other intelligent coach, Boudreau's going to look at how you've performed all year long and allot your playing time based on that. Giving Selanne icetime based on what he used to do, is a lot like giving Dan Cleary 53 games based on the past. Selanne had done very little (or less than others), with more opportunity, last season. If he wanted more playing time in the playoffs he should have produced more during the season.

He was benched BECAUSE of ineffective play, which is the way it's supposed to go. He seems to be arguing that he should have been given ice time DESPITE ineffective play. I would understand if he was producing well and got his icetime cut. But he wasn't. So I don't know why he's bitching.

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Understood, but no coach is going to give you playoff icetime without considering regular season production. Like any other intelligent coach, Boudreau's going to look at how you've performed all year long and allot your playing time based on that. Giving Selanne icetime based on what he used to do, is a lot like giving Dan Cleary 53 games based on the past. Selanne had done very little (or less than others), with more opportunity, last season. If he wanted more playing time in the playoffs he should have produced more during the season.

He was benched BECAUSE of ineffective play, which is the way it's supposed to go. He seems to be arguing that he should have been given ice time DESPITE ineffective play. I would understand if he was producing well and got his icetime cut. But he wasn't. So I don't know why he's bitching.

I understand your point, but then where did Pat Maroon get PP ice time in the playoffs? He didn't perform during the regular season nor did he perform during the playoffs. If Selanne is going to be the bar of ineffective play, Maroon was below it all season. I understand Maroon's 26. I understand Maroon's pretty much the only 'tough' player on their roster. But you have to call a spade a spade and in the most important game of the season, I'd take Selanne over Maroon 100% of the time whether you want to base it on 13-14 or whenever. I'm certainly not going to argue that I'm an 'intelligent coach', but PIM over potential scoring in a non-fantasy elimination game doesn't seem that 'intelligent'...

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I understand your point, but then where did Pat Maroon get PP ice time in the playoffs? He didn't perform during the regular season nor did he perform during the playoffs. If Selanne is going to be the bar of ineffective play, Maroon was below it all season. I understand Maroon's 26. I understand Maroon's pretty much the only 'tough' player on their roster. But you have to call a spade a spade and in the most important game of the season, I'd take Selanne over Maroon 100% of the time whether you want to base it on 13-14 or whenever. I'm certainly not going to argue that I'm an 'intelligent coach', but PIM over potential scoring in a non-fantasy elimination game doesn't seem that 'intelligent'...

I agree with half your point. Boudreau did use Maroon and Pely-Smith on the PP more in the playoffs than he did during the regular season. My guess is that he was trying to match power with power against Los Angeles, and so he decided to ice a bigger group. You can argue the validity of that coaching decision all day, and I'm sure you'd have very legitimate points. After all, Anaheim lost, so it's not like the ends justified the means or anything.

As we know, it didn't work. But because it was ineffective doesn't mean it was illogical.

Maroon did out produce Selanne during the regular season. And that was with less even strength AND PP time. So it's not like Boudreau was basing the decision (wrong as it may have been in the end) on nothing. He was basing off of current levels of production.

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Maroon did out produce Selanne during the regular season. And that was with less even strength AND PP time. So it's not like Boudreau was basing the decision (wrong as it may have been in the end) on nothing. He was basing off of current levels of production.

At even strength, I can agree with you, but Maroon's 4 PPPs in the regular season was half of what Selanne put up. He did have less total minutes, but not 50%...

I guess the bottom line is that Boudreau went into the playoffs with a known roster and he knows the individual strengths of the players. He used Selanne basically as a power play specialist all season long and he really wasn't horrible given the ice time he was given... I'm not saying he played like he did as a youngster, he didn't. But he was a reasonable 3rd or 4th line player and power play guy. For the playoffs, Anaheim shifted to Maroon (and Smith-Pelly, like you point out) and that opens up the criticism which Selanne leveled - Boudreau went with 'unknowns' instead of him.

As a competitive player, I can see why Selanne was frustrated.

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It has nothing to do with the relative strength of the league but a lot with development, the development of hockey players in Sweden is top notch (including facilities) and I don't think Russia can compare in that regard. As for your bubble comment that's exactly what will happen at some point in time and save for some bigger clubs I don't think all will survive when that happens. btw. I also don't think this CHL experiment will last long.

That is true. Fewer and fewer top players emerge in Russia. But so far, KHL teams are compensating by buying up foreign talent. Many KHL teams top lines are totally non-Russian, or have 1 Russian guy. When the money runs out, that will no longer be an option. So in 10 years or less, Russian national team will be hard pressed to find enough good Russian players to beat teams like Germany or Slovenia.

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That is true. Fewer and fewer top players emerge in Russia. But so far, KHL teams are compensating by buying up foreign talent. Many KHL teams top lines are totally non-Russian, or have 1 Russian guy. When the money runs out, that will no longer be an option. So in 10 years or less, Russian national team will be hard pressed to find enough good Russian players to beat teams like Germany or Slovenia.

I really really doubt this, Russia has done great in the WJC for years now. They have a lot of really solid young players coming up.

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I really really doubt this, Russia has done great in the WJC for years now. They have a lot of really solid young players coming up.

And where are all of those young players? After they age out of junior, very few get a regular spot in a KHL team's line-up. Even if they make the roster of a KHL team, they ride the pine and play 5 min a night. There's no place for the 19-21 year olds to play at high level and to develop. And even for those high end prospects, the quality of their hockey education is nowhere near what it used to be 20-25 years ago. If you look at the standout Russian juniors over the last 5 years, I can count the number of them regularly playing in KHL or NHL without having to take my shoes off.

Edited by sibiriak

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That is true. Fewer and fewer top players emerge in Russia. But so far, KHL teams are compensating by buying up foreign talent. Many KHL teams top lines are totally non-Russian, or have 1 Russian guy. When the money runs out, that will no longer be an option. So in 10 years or less, Russian national team will be hard pressed to find enough good Russian players to beat teams like Germany or Slovenia.

That trend is very sad and alarming but your can be sure other leagues are having this problem too. When I'm looking at lesser leagues (non KHL, SEL, NLA, FEL), there are sometimes top 6 lines without one home grown player.. It's simple disgusting and personally I've almost stopped following my national league thanks to that. Sweden and Russia should follow the Swiss model and start limiting the number of foreigners a team can have.

BTW. How can the KHL boss be OK with this? Isn't the khl mostly a Russian league? So they should focus on developing and helping their own clubs instead of paying millions for public traitors like Jokerit (fu Hajarmo).

I would lose a lot of respect of Teemu signed there.

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I haven't looked in detail but most SHL teams have a large majority of Swedes and not that many foreigners really. Frölunda which is my local team that has Håkan Andersson on the board and a couple of Detroit drafted kids currently has two Norwegian, one Fin and one American player and the other 23 players are Swedish and a large group of those are kids or players who have Frölunda as their original club.

I think you'll find about the same if you look at Skellefteå, Färjestad or the other large Swedish clubs.

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