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Hockeytown0001

Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

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Serious question. I don't read other hockey boards, so I don't know the answer to this question.

Do other forums have as many posters who don't believe fighting and enforcers have a place in the game? It seems like we have many, and I wonder how much of that has to do with Kenny Holland and the Wings philosophy of finishing last in fighting majors every year for the last 10+ years?

Seems like the attitude of the team and management has rubbed off to the fanbase.

With that said, I know many Wings fans who can't stand that philosophy and root for the team in spite of it.

There's a difference between having a guy who will fight and can do other things and having a talentless meatbag who can do nothing but punch people.

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I definitely think Red Wings fans place a higher premium on skill than most other fanbases, but do not forget that despite Holland's position on fighting, the Cup winning team's all had a physical presence. Some more than others. For example, the modern era Red Wings have yet to win a Cup without Darren McCarty in the lineup.

I don't think anyone believes that toughness and a strong physical presence isn't a good thing to have on a team. The issue pops up with how different folks define what toughness is. I personally find value in players who are strong in the corners and can protect the puck well, and retrieve loose pucks amidst slashes and cross checks and the like. I find value in players who can effectively drive the net and hold their ground there. I find value in players who can physically wear down on the opposition, through hard hits, relentlessness, good speed and pressure. I don't find much value (other than for entertainment and personal sadistic gain) in players fighting other players for hits or past issues, legal or otherwise. I don't think it deters anything (in fact I think it potentiates the issue, as Kip alluded to), and just slows the game down. But that's my personal stance on the issue. Obviously there are plenty of folks who think that Downey's presence on the roster gave the team the courage to win the game, or Drake's willingness to fight kept the opposition honest, whatever that means. I just don't buy that aspect of it.

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You guys are going to love this...

Flames devote part of practice to learning how to fight

The Calgary Flames are learning their lessons in truculence at training camp.

In a rare sight for an NHL club, the team devoted part of Thursday's practice to fighting, showing several players from their group of non-regulars about technique, how to engage an opponent and what to do when engaged in a fight.
"As we did in the past years, we're just trying to teach the kids to defend themselves," head coach Bob Hartley explained after practice. "That's what we're trying to teach our young players."
The players - which included centres Paul Byron and Corbin Knight, right winger Ben Hanowski and left winger Trevor Gillies - paired up and sparred under the watch of an outside instructor and threw punches without the intent to connect.
Hartley added that the purpose of the instruction wasn't to use them as an aggressor or fight instigator. "If you’re going to drop your gloves you have to know the dangers,” he said.
The Flames' regular roster already includes enforcers like wingers Brian McGrattan and Brandon Bollig and defenceman Deryk Engelland who signed a three-year, $8.7 million contract over the summer.

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You guys are going to love this...

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Loving it but it shouldn't even be news. I mean it's a long summer the players have a lot of money and maybe rich families so they should be able to attend some MMA training too. But of course it must be nice if guys like Gillies, Bollig are willing to teach them how to defend themselves. Feels like yesterday when everyone thought the Flames would be a pussysoft, undersized team and now look at them, guys like Chara won't be laughing like they did against Abdelkader..

Personally I think guys like Pasha, Nyquist, and Tatar would welcome the addition of someone who has their back.

Here is my Brian McGrattan on the addition on Brandon Bollig (reporter asks him about the added size and toughness on the team):

it's actually security for our young players to go and play as freely as they want...without having to worry about anything.

I would LOVE if someone on this team would say the same thing about Pasha, Z, Nyquist and guess what I think they would welcome it too.

The days of having the PP as an enforcer are long but gone. I don't know about some of the anti-toughness fans but personally I would love seeing the skilled guys on this team doing their thing as freely as they want...

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Monahan made the Flames and could focus fully on hockey, nobody took cheapshots or borderline hits against him and guess why ? People FEAR McGrattan as every cheapshot artist = rat should. The point of the matter is this Pasha is by far the best player on this team he is wasting his last years on a team that doesn't stick up for each other and where the FO doesn't bring in guys that could help out. It's not just about fighting it's that whole "anti physicality" mindset that I'm questioning Downey said it best himself "hey you can hit our players but if you try to take advantage of star/weaker/smallish players someone sneaky will come around the corner..."

The last player who took liberties with Kessel was a behemoth called John Scott nobody else has done so, because nobody wants to answer to Colton Orr, Frazer McLaren. Phaneuf told Crosby to keep to clean his act up or else he would hit him in the same manner...nobody on our team is doing that and maybe just maybe there is already too much complacensy...

Ok Scuderi laid out a clean hit fine, where are the guys that say "ok it's preseason and they are playing this like regular/playoff season in terms of physicality let's hit Maataa, Kunitz ...in the same manner" there is freaking nobody. Things like this are also a bounding experience for team they rally around each other and know everyone heas each others back.

I love fighting. I like the spectacle. I love that extra dimension it gives to the sport. It's truly unique. I wish the instigator rule was not in place. I loved when their was a heavy weight matchup of Probert v. Domi, and seeing who was going to win the belt from the other. I loved that if anyone touched Yzerman Probie would immediately turn into the hulk and smash their face in, no matter what the consequences were for himself. I loved when McCarty turtled Lemieux, because I literally wanted vengeance and blood for what he did to Draper.

But here's why I think your argument stinks Frank. Everyone who I know that is pro-fighting (including myself) whines about how - since the instigator rule - the enforcers ability to protect and scare off the rats is almost completely diminished. Fighting USED to protect stars to an EXTENT, but not anymore, and that's what pisses off pro-fighting advocates and why everyone calls for the repeal of the instigator penalty.

So please, don't act like having McMeatbag on the fourth line/bench is going to protect Datsyuk. All that guy can do is instigate a revenge fight at a later time. And Scuderi can easily just say no at that time, and then we have another possible Bertuzzi-Moore situation on our hands.

If you want the culture of protective fighting you have to:

1) repeal the instigator rule

2) find a guy who can drop the gloves AND play top line minutes

or

3) time-travel back to the 1980s

Fighting these days is used to possibly change the mood of a game and/or to seek vengeance. And it puts fans like you and I in the stands. That's it.

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I wonder if Probert(God bless his soul) was riding shotgun on the wing for Z or D what would be outcome?

Probie had the tools to play the game AND be the man playing police officer.

Heck what if it was Kocur instead?

Would this lineup be energized a bit more knowing the little bothersome "rats" would have to answer?

But back to the injury things could be worse.....http://www.tsn.ca/hurricanes-c-jordan-staal-to-undergo-surgery-on-right-leg-1.91360

Edited by AtlantaHotWings

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I love fighting. I like the spectacle. I love that extra dimension it gives to the sport. It's truly unique. I wish the instigator rule was not in place. I loved when their was a heavy weight matchup of Probert v. Domi, and seeing who was going to win the belt from the other. I loved that if anyone touched Yzerman Probie would immediately turn into the hulk and smash their face in, no matter what the consequences were for himself. I loved when McCarty turtled Lemieux, because I literally wanted vengeance and blood for what he did to Draper.

But here's why I think your argument stinks Frank. Everyone who I know that is pro-fighting (including myself) whines about how - since the instigator rule - the enforcers ability to protect and scare off the rats is almost completely diminished. Fighting USED to protect stars to an EXTENT, but not anymore, and that's what pisses off pro-fighting advocates and why everyone calls for the repeal of the instigator penalty.

So please, don't act like having McMeatbag on the fourth line/bench is going to protect Datsyuk. All that guy can do is instigate a revenge fight at a later time. And Scuderi can easily just say no at that time, and then we have another possible Bertuzzi-Moore situation on our hands.

If you want the culture of protective fighting you have to:

1) repeal the instigator rule

2) find a guy who can drop the gloves AND play top line minutes

or

3) time-travel back to the 1980s

Fighting these days is used to possibly change the mood of a game and/or to seek vengeance. And it puts fans like you and I in the stands. That's it.

agreed. i love fighting as much as the next guy but the reality is that in today's game, it serves no purpose other than to entertain the fans

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Agreed the instigator needs to go. It's not just fighting that's missing here its the whole physicality stuff. Teams like Boston, LA and the Blues are so feared because they can play every type of game (skilled, physical,wait and see...) the Wings used to be able to do that too and they haven't one anything since going soft.

@Atlantawing that's something I've been wondering a about Cowen have elbowed Pasha in the head of he had McGrath an on his line? I don't think so

World Scuderi have gone full in knowing he might have to answer - whether he likes it or not - by either dropping the gloves or getting hit equally as hard? I highly doubt it.

We are just fans sure but I would love to hear how Pasha is feeling about a beefed-up team?

BTW Staal's injury just Sucks guy had no luck

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A bit of both...Most realize that their mgt for the most part is media driven, and their decision making leaves many scratching their heads (not sure if Shanny will make any difference - then again look at the Avs with Roy, and Sakic) ...That said - the stands are always full of 'punters' in Toronto, and they make $$$ like nobody else so why make any drastic changes?

Now - the fans all have hope that with this group of players they'll have a chance at making the playoffs...As I'm sure you already know - the Leafs have their strong starts, but then at the worst possible time - they go on a losing streak thus dropping outta playoff contention.

Yeah, I guess you're right it's tough to be a Leafs fan and an optimist at the same time. Although to me--and I could be wrong here-- but to me it always seems like Leafs nation jumps all over their team at the first sign of trouble. That's a tough way to be a fan, which makes me happy to root for the Wings.

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I agree that we're a young team, and I by no means bemoan the fact that we're "old". But, I think it's at least worth noting that while only a handful of guys are over 31, they're all our best players (with the exception of Cleary). D, Z, Fran, Knonwall, Weiss all have VERY important spots on this team. So I think the point could be made that while we're not old overall...the most important parts of our team are getting up there.

Ya, but just like when Shanny, Hull, Yzerman, Draper, Lidstrom etc. were getting old, we had guys like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, Fillpula, and Franzen coming up. Now as the new crop are getting old, we have Tatar, Nyquist, Jurco, Mantha, Sproul and others coming up. Best case for us, the kids develop before the older crew start to decline. If this can happen, we have one hell of a team!

Don't mean to be a Debbie downer here but this injury will probably bother him all season. I had a cousin that had a separated shoulder from playing football and it took a while again for him to feel 100%. Now obviously the Red Wings have top notch doctors and better resources but it probably won't make that much of a difference. I don't see Datsyuk being out only 4 weeks. He'll probably be out longer and will probably be bothered by it the whole season. Face it, he's getting old. Injuries have plagued players that are younger than Datsyuk. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Datsyuk only plays half a season.

Your cousin could have had a third degree shoulder separation which is much worse. Below I pasted the difference of the 3.

As per http://www.sportmedspecialists.com/sms-in-the-news/shoulder-articles

First Degree:

The most common and the least serious is the first degree. This is merely a bruise to the joint. The athlete will be painful but can play as soon as the pain is diminished enough to allow him to function fully. This will vary from not even missing a shift to a week or so before the pain settles down. The second degree sprain is more serious. It involves partial tearing of the ligaments.

Second Degree

The second degree sprain is more serious. It involves partial tearing of the ligaments. There is more swelling in the joint and usually bruising will appear a few days later. There is a small bump evident where the clavicle is now sitting a bit higher. A sling can be worn for comfort for a few days. Sport therapy is started immediately to maintain range of motion and regain the strength in the shoulder. Again, pain and function will guide the athlete on when they can return to play. the athlete will usually be out 4-6 weeks

Third Degree

The third degree separation involves total tearing of the ligament in the joint. The clavicle is totally out of the joint. In the old days(10-15 years ago) we used to operate on these to put the clavicle back in the joint. Now we treat it the same as a second degree separation, except there is a longer recovery.

We now know that an athlete or a worker for that matter will get back to activity sooner and with more strength if we do NOT operate. I t is the only joint in the body which we will actually leave out of joint once it is injured. The athlete is usually out for 6-8 weeks. The most important thing is to protect the shoulder when they go back to play. We use a special pad under the shoulder pad to protect the joint and probably use a better shoulder pad. Shoulder pads are a lot better now but can be very cumbersome. You would be amazed to see what some of the NHL players use to protect their shoulders. Some of the pads have been worn since bantam hockey. I am now working on design for a better shoulder pad to protect this Acromioclavicular joint. As with any injury I would rather prevent an injury than treat the injury.

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I definitely think Red Wings fans place a higher premium on skill than most other fanbases, but do not forget that despite Holland's position on fighting, the Cup winning team's all had a physical presence. Some more than others. For example, the modern era Red Wings have yet to win a Cup without Darren McCarty in the lineup.

True, but I think that inflates his value a little too much in 2008. That year he played one game in the finals, had 6:00 minutes of icetime, 11 shifts, and no fights. He didn't do anything that Abdelkader and Helm don't do better. For all intents and purposes that was a pure skill team with a pure skill win.

However, your point is taken for 97, 98, and 02. Those were tougher teams than our current bunch, but still near the bottom of the league in all major "tough guy" categories.

Making comparisons against ones' self is always precarious because it tends to skew all relative contextual information. By comparing the 97 Wings to the 08 Wings you'd conclude that one was "tough" and one wasn't. But once you factor in the rest of the league you realize that neither were tough. In 97 our less tough team absolutely obliterated the tough guys from Philadephia who were supposed to be so much and powerful and scary.

So while I agree that our older teams were tougher than current ones, they were still by no means "tough" teams by NHL standards. Also, in neither case are those Wings' team indicative of whether or not "tough" vs. "skill" philosophies are better, they just happened to be better that year.

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Guest DeGraa55

True, but I think that inflates his value a little too much in 2008. That year he played one game in the finals, had 6:00 minutes of icetime, 11 shifts, and no fights. He didn't do anything that Abdelkader and Helm don't do better. For all intents and purposes that was a pure skill team with a pure skill win.

However, your point is taken for 97, 98, and 02. Those were tougher teams than our current bunch, but still near the bottom of the league in all major "tough guy" categories.

Making comparisons against ones' self is always precarious because it tends to skew all relative contextual information. By comparing the 97 Wings to the 08 Wings you'd conclude that one was "tough" and one wasn't. But once you factor in the rest of the league you realize that neither were tough. In 97 our less tough team absolutely obliterated the tough guys from Philadephia who were supposed to be so much and powerful and scary.

So while I agree that our older teams were tougher than current ones, they were still by no means "tough" teams by NHL standards. Also, in neither case are those Wings' team indicative of whether or not "tough" vs. "skill" philosophies are better, they just happened to be better that year.

But there is such a thing as too tough(Calgary). The wings had perfect balance. Also when you factor in guys like shanahan and lapointe they had skill and toughness. Guys like probert McCarty and kocur were mosty toughness but could still score(better then tough guys in the league today but maybe that's because of their era).

I don't think anyone is sayin we need a goon. But we do need a shanahan or lapointe. Guys that could fight when needed and still provide offense.

Edited by DeGraa55

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True, but I think that inflates his value a little too much in 2008. That year he played one game in the finals, had 6:00 minutes of icetime, 11 shifts, and no fights. He didn't do anything that Abdelkader and Helm don't do better. For all intents and purposes that was a pure skill team with a pure skill win.

However, your point is taken for 97, 98, and 02. Those were tougher teams than our current bunch, but still near the bottom of the league in all major "tough guy" categories.

Making comparisons against ones' self is always precarious because it tends to skew all relative contextual information. By comparing the 97 Wings to the 08 Wings you'd conclude that one was "tough" and one wasn't. But once you factor in the rest of the league you realize that neither were tough. In 97 our less tough team absolutely obliterated the tough guys from Philadephia who were supposed to be so much and powerful and scary.

So while I agree that our older teams were tougher than current ones, they were still by no means "tough" teams by NHL standards. Also, in neither case are those Wings' team indicative of whether or not "tough" vs. "skill" philosophies are better, they just happened to be better that year.

Tough or not is not the issue, point is there was someone to get the job done. McCarty played 17 games and to win a Cup you need 16 wins. The road to the finals is important too. I'm not saying they wouldnt have won without him, everybody knows his game was declining by that time. Still he was there and the team has not won a cup in the Kenny Holland era without him.

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But there is such a thing as too tough(Calgary). The wings had perfect balance. Also when you factor in guys like shanahan and lapointe they had skill and toughness. Guys like probert McCarty and kocur were mosty toughness but could still score(better then tough guys in the league today but maybe that's because of their era).

I don't think anyone is sayin we need a goon. But we do need a shanahan or lapointe. Guys that could fight when needed and still provide offense.

And I'm not saying we need a team full of sissies either.

But the Shanahan/Lapointe type guys just aren't available anymore. And when they are, the price is so high that nobody wants to move what it takes to get them. Anybody want to trade Nyquist right now for Evander Kane? He's tough, and skilled, and all that. But that's what he'd cost. If Holland pulled the trigger on that trade people would ******* riot. Let's see, who else is tough and skilled? Kesler? Yeah, everybody said he was too expensive as well.

So if you want toughness you end up taking bottom six toughness because its cheap and available. And that ends up looking a lot like Aaron Downey, Brad May, or Jordin Tootoo...and Babs doesn't want guys like that.

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But there is such a thing as too tough(Calgary). The wings had perfect balance. Also when you factor in guys like shanahan and lapointe they had skill and toughness. Guys like probert McCarty and kocur were mosty toughness but could still score(better then tough guys in the league today but maybe that's because of their era).

I don't think anyone is sayin we need a goon. But we do need a shanahan or lapointe. Guys that could fight when needed and still provide offense.

we need a goon, because our talent takes a beating every night. Yes there will still be injuries and dirty plays, but the Red Wings have never won a Cup without a McCarty in the modern era.

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Tough or not is not the issue, point is there was someone to get the job done. McCarty played 17 games and to win a Cup you need 16 wins. The road to the finals is important too. I'm not saying they wouldnt have won without him, everybody knows his game was declining by that time. Still he was there and the team has not won a cup in the Kenny Holland era without him.

They haven't won a Cup in the Holland era without Lidstrom either. And I don't think he ever had a fight, or led the team in hits either. The softest of the soft, the skilled of the skilled. So what?

You could just as easily argue, based on this fact, that we should go MORE toward "skill" because after losing Lids we're not skilled enough.

we need a goon, because our talent takes a beating every night. Yes there will still be injuries and dirty plays, but the Red Wings have never won a Cup without a McCarty in the modern era.

You keep saying this like it means something. He didn't even play in the 08 finals. Mike Babcock thought him so irrelevant that he scratched him, and yet here you are making it seem like he's not only important but vital to win. He's not. Get over it.

Edit: Also, McCarty played exactly 3 regular season games that year too. So it's not like he was out there night after night protecting Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom.

He played 17 playoff games as the Wings steamrolled Nashville, Colorado, and Dallas, and then rode the pine once we had to play an actual team.

Edited by kipwinger

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They haven't won a Cup in the Holland era without Lidstrom either. And I don't think he ever had a fight, or led the team in hits either. The softest of the soft, the skilled of the skilled. So what?

You could just as easily argue, based on this fact, that we should go MORE toward "skill" because after losing Lids we're not skilled enough.

You keep saying this like it means something. He didn't even play in the 08 finals. Mike Babcock thought him so irrelevant that he scratched him, and yet here you are making it seem like he's not only important but vital to win. He's not. Get over it.

We have more skill than toughness, so why exclude one or the other?

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