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Datsyuk 2nd degree separated shoulder injury - out approx 4 weeks

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We have more skill than toughness, so why exclude one or the other?

I'd argue that we've got plenty of toughness and not enough skill.

For the last several years we've had awful special teams, defensemen that can't pass the puck without turning it over, marginal goaltending, injuries, and ZERO scoring depth.

More skill will help ALL of those things, more toughness will help exactly ONE of those things.

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I'd argue that we've got plenty of toughness and not enough skill.

For the last several years we've had awful special teams, defensemen that can't pass the puck without turning it over, marginal goaltending, injuries, and ZERO scoring depth.

More skill will help ALL of those things, more toughness will help exactly ONE of those things.

The team lacks physical/mental toughness as well as has a dearth of skill. But I believe that you have to upgrade with what's available to you. If skill is available than you upgrade skill. If toughness is available then toughness should be upgrade, hell if there is a way to upgrade both than by all means do both.

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The team lacks physical/mental toughness as well as has a dearth of skill. But I believe that you have to upgrade with what's available to you. If skill is available than you upgrade skill. If toughness is available then toughness should be upgrade, hell if there is a way to upgrade both than by all means do both.

How exactly are you going to upgrade your special teams, puck movement from the back end, scoring depth, or shoddy goaltending with "toughness"? The kinds of guys that Ryan Barnes is arguing for (e.g. goons) don't play special teams, don't move the puck well, don't limit shots on the goalie, and don't provide scoring depth. They maybe...maybe...could help keep other guys healthy...maybe. But that's it.

This whole argument that we've been bad because we're not "tough enough" completely overlooks the fact that there are a lot of SERIOUS problems with our team that have nothing to do "toughness". Fortunately many of the problems outlined above are resolved by adding Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Mantha, Ouellet, Sproul, and Marchenko (none of whom are goons, but all of whom are skilled) and removing/demoting Kindl, Lashoff, Quincey, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc (some of whom are tough, none of whom are skilled).

By adding more skill, our real problems are likely to get solved. By adding goons you solve zero real problems and only address this "toughness" deficiency which isn't really tied to anything tangible anyway.

Edited by kipwinger

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How exactly are you going to upgrade your special teams, puck movement from the back end, scoring depth, or shoddy goaltending with "toughness"? The kinds of guys that Ryan Barnes is arguing for (e.g. goons) don't play special teams, don't move the puck well, don't limit shots on the goalie, and don't provide scoring depth. They maybe...maybe...could help keep other guys healthy...maybe. But that's it.

This whole argument that we've been bad because we're not "tough enough" completely overlooks the fact that there are a lot of SERIOUS problems with our team that have nothing to do "toughness". Fortunately many of the problems outlined above are resolved by adding Nyquist, Jurco, Tatar, Mantha, Ouellet, Sproul, and Marchenko (none of whom are goons, but all of whom are skilled) and removing/demoting Kindl, Lashoff, Quincey, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, etc (some of whom are tough, none of whom are skilled).

By adding more skill, our real problems are likely to get solved. By adding goons you solve zero real problems and only address this "toughness" deficiency which isn't really tied to anything tangible anyway.

You completely missed my point. It wasn't that upgrading toughness is more important than skill, it also wasn't that if we upgrade toughness it would somehow solve all our problems. My point was that-- as a team you go for the upgrade that's available. Kinda like if you're struggling on D and no D upgrade is available you upgrade the offense.

Is skill preferable to physical toughness? Absolutely. I just don't agree that if skill isn't available you should sit on your hands and do nothing. Kinda like what Kenny did this offseason, or the previous one, or the one before that.

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We need to replace vanilla midgets with tough North American boys who are unpleasant to play against in a 7 game series. If I was any playoff team, I'd love to play against the Wings.

The Wings do have more pressing issues than "toughness", but with our salary cap situation and Holland's inability to lure free agents to Detroit, those other issues won't be addressed, I'm sorry to say.

Tough guys are easier to find and are cheap. Yeah, we'd like to have a player like McGrattan but who can score 20 goals. I'd like to have a 6'0 tall blonde and a Ferrari. Doesn't work that way. Holland has to address whatever needs he can actually address realistically. Small guys on the 4th line who don't propose any problem to other teams aren't what's needed. This team gets pushed around too much and needs someone who will actually make fans feel like they're not rooting for a bunch of milksops. There's no excuse not to have a player like that the last 5 seasons, since this team became mediocre. Long gone are the days when we had stars on our 4th line. Holland is making this look much more difficult than it is.

Edited by GMRwings1983

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I definitely think Red Wings fans place a higher premium on skill than most other fanbases, but do not forget that despite Holland's position on fighting, the Cup winning team's all had a physical presence. Some more than others. For example, the modern era Red Wings have yet to win a Cup without Darren McCarty in the lineup.

Or Nick Lidstrom...not that he had anything to do with winning or anything. I'd rather have McCarty.

We need to replace vanilla midgets with tough North American boys who are unpleasant to play against in a 7 game series. If I was any playoff team, I'd love to play against the Wings.

The Wings do have more pressing issues than "toughness", but with our salary cap situation and Holland's inability to lure free agents to Detroit, those other issues won't be addressed, I'm sorry to say.

Tough guys are easier to find and are cheap. Yeah, we'd like to have a player like McGrattan but who can score 20 goals. I'd like to have a 6'0 tall blonde and a Ferrari. Doesn't work that way. Holland has to address whatever needs he can actually address realistically. Small guys on the 4th line who don't propose any problem to other teams aren't what's needed. This team gets pushed around too much and needs someone who will actually make fans feel like they're not rooting for a bunch of milksops. There's no excuse not to have a player like that the last 5 seasons, since this team became mediocre. Long gone are the days when we had stars on our 4th line. Holland is making this look much more difficult than it is.

Yeah, since, oh I dunno, they instituted a salary cap? Sheesh, why can't Holland see that 20-30 goal scorers that are big and tough grow on trees?

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Or Nick Lidstrom...not that he had anything to do with winning or anything. I'd rather have McCarty.

Yeah, since, oh I dunno, they instituted a salary cap? Sheesh, why can't Holland see that 20-30 goal scorers that are big and tough grow on trees?

Umm..... my post basically said the exact opposite of what you interpreted.

I think we need to get a meathead.

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Wheter people like it or not the mental mindset also plays a huge in hockey. If I'm a bigger team I'd love to play the Wings:

- hit everything that moves ... at worse case a non existant powerplay big deal kill it off and keep hitting

- go after their star players and no response

- star gets injured ? Well we don't have to fear anything because the team is pussysoft and won't fight fire with fire.

Downey used Laperiere as his punching bag and the whole team came together in such an amazing fashion. I'm starting to wonder what would happen if someone pulls a Keczmar against Pasha, Z business as usual I guess ? For everyone saying oh we don't need tough guys we need skill, this team hasn't won anything since they've lost toughness (sure the Wings also lost a ton of FO and on ice skill too) but that's the fact.

Players want to feel safe outthere and play there game, without having to worry about rats.

How is Calgary too tough ? They might add a 160 lbs !!! player would people like it to feed someone like that to the wolves ? The rats - who are now taking over - would absolutely take advantage of him and intimidate Johnny Hockey at every opportunity they might still do it, but then have to be prepared for the wrath of Bollig, McGrattan, Engelland, Yonkman...

Last season 1 guy stood up for Pasha and it was Sam a guy who doesn't and shouldn't fight.

Yeah the Milan Lucic type doesn't grow on trees but it's not that hard to add guys like Colton Orr, McGrattan heck McLaren, Frazer, Steve MacIntyre were on waivers and could be had for nothing. We are talking about 4 line players here, there job isn't to score goals or prevent them they have an average TOi of ~ 8 minutes their job is to keep the other team honest and making sure that people pay for taking advantage of Pasha. If we had MacIntyre or McLaren on our team, Scuderi would have thought twice about hitting Pasha and Cowen would have kept his damn ellbow down. Injuries are not something that will go away so the last thing this team needs is the added factor of more injuries from hard hits in PRESEASON games. Get rid of the instigator and let's see if the Marchand's, Cooke's and Lapierre's of the league are still so "brave"

Edited by frankgrimes

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Yeah the Milan Lucic type doesn't grow on trees but it's not that hard to add guys like Colton Orr, McGrattan heck McLaren, Frazer, Steve MacIntyre were on waivers and could be had for nothing. We are talking about 4 line players here, there job isn't to score goals or prevent them they have an average TOi of ~ 8 minutes their job is to keep the other team honest and making sure that people pay for taking advantage of Pasha.

Pretty much my argument. Guys like that are easy to find and don't cost much. Our 4th line isn't that talented to lose a roster spot for an enforcer.

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Pretty much my argument. Guys like that are easy to find and don't cost much. Our 4th line isn't that talented to lose a roster spot for an enforcer.

Um, if they're such a valuable commodity, why does no one want them and why are they all on waivers? It isn't 1987 anymore. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

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We need to replace vanilla midgets with tough North American boys who are unpleasant to play against in a 7 game series. If I was any playoff team, I'd love to play against the Wings.

The Wings do have more pressing issues than "toughness", but with our salary cap situation and Holland's inability to lure free agents to Detroit, those other issues won't be addressed, I'm sorry to say.

Tough guys are easier to find and are cheap. Yeah, we'd like to have a player like McGrattan but who can score 20 goals. I'd like to have a 6'0 tall blonde and a Ferrari. Doesn't work that way. Holland has to address whatever needs he can actually address realistically. Small guys on the 4th line who don't propose any problem to other teams aren't what's needed. This team gets pushed around too much and needs someone who will actually make fans feel like they're not rooting for a bunch of milksops. There's no excuse not to have a player like that the last 5 seasons, since this team became mediocre. Long gone are the days when we had stars on our 4th line. Holland is making this look much more difficult than it is.

I think you and Mike Babcock have fundamentally different views on what the fourth line and bottom defensive pairings are supposed to be doing. Seems like you think their role is to hit, fight, be abrasive, and generally a pain the ass to play against. Mike seems to think bottom end players are supposed to kill penalties, play defense, eat up minutes in games that are out of reach, and not take penalties.

So rather than crossing our fingers and hoping Mike Babcock changes his mind, why not just find guys who are better able to execute his game plan...like I dunno, Abby and Helm. Couldn't they get put on the fourth line, since that's where they should be anyway? And once there, wouldn't they be (along with Miller, or Callahan, or Cleary, or whomever) the best fourth line in hockey?

Edited by kipwinger

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I think you and Mike Babcock have fundamentally different views on what the fourth line and bottom defensive pairings are supposed to be doing. Seems like you think their role is to hit, fight, be abrasive, and generally a pain the ass to play against. Mike seems to think bottom end players are supposed to kill penalties, play defense, eat up minutes in games that are out of reach, and not take penalties.

So rather than crossing our fingers and hoping Mike Babcock changes his mind, why not just find guys who are better able to execute his game plan...like I dunno, Abby and Helm. Couldn't they get put on the fourth line, since that's where they should be anyway? And once there, wouldn't they be (along with Miller, or Callahan, or Cleary, or whomever) the best fourth line in hockey?

And replace them with skilled players on the top two lines? Holland hasn't proven he can do that well with the salary cap. I'd like a 40 goal scoring winger on the top 6, but it's not going to happen unless it comes from a Nyquist or Tatar. We're not signing anyone soon.

Holland loves spending money on 4th liners like Sammy and Cleary, but doesn't spend less money for a tough guy that is cheaper.

Um, if they're such a valuable commodity, why does no one want them and why are they all on waivers? It isn't 1987 anymore. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Oh come on. Every team has had more toughness than the Wings each of the last 10 plus seasons. We're the anomaly when it comes to enforcers, not the rule. There are plenty of tough guys not on waivers, just like there are plenty who are.

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Agreed.

You cannot underestimate the camaraderie, and team bonding when a teammate steps up, and goes after an opponent when a questionable hit is delivered.

It was some time ago, but I recall Shanahan saying something along the lines of - 'I'd rather stand up for a teammate, and potentially take an additional 2 min instigator with the idea that my teammates will kill off the ensuing pp rather than to stand around, and do nothing'.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it not uncommon to hear people say they believe that the fight night at the joe is the night that team solidified the Cup win?

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And replace them with skilled players on the top two lines? Holland hasn't proven he can do that well with the salary cap. I'd like a 40 goal scoring winger on the top 6, but it's not going to happen unless it comes from a Nyquist or Tatar. We're not signing anyone soon.

Holland loves spending money on 4th liners like Sammy and Cleary, but doesn't spend less money for a tough guy that is cheaper.

Oh come on. Every team has had more toughness than the Wings each of the last 10 plus seasons. We're the anomaly when it comes to enforcers, not the rule. There are plenty of tough guys not on waivers, just like there are plenty who are.

To clarify are we talking physical players or "meatheads"? You seem to be going back and forth. Who wouldn't like a physical player who is solid defensively and can score a big goal on occasion. Every team wants a few of those and there aren't that many available.

Holland signed Tootoo, a fighter and agitator, and after injuries to nearly every regular on the team, Babcock chose to play absolutely anyone but him. He made it pretty clear that isn't the type of player he wants on his team.

The Wings have plenty of needs, but an "enforcer" is at the very bottom of the list. The injuries have nothing to do with having an enforcer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it not uncommon to hear people say they believe that the fight night at the joe is the night that team solidified the Cup win?

It was 17 years ago.

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To clarify are we talking physical players or "meatheads"? You seem to be going back and forth. Who wouldn't like a physical player who is solid defensively and can score a big goal on occasion. Every team wants a few of those and there aren't that many available.

Holland signed Tootoo, a fighter and agitator, and after injuries to nearly every regular on the team, Babcock chose to play absolutely anyone but him. He made it pretty clear that isn't the type of player he wants on his team.

The Wings have plenty of needs, but an "enforcer" is at the very bottom of the list. The injuries have nothing to do with having an enforcer.

It was 17 years ago.

I'm just saying that I'll take a meathead if we can't get a fighter with talent (which I know we won't).

Enforcer may be on the bottom of the list, but the top of the list isn't something Holland seems to be able to realistically address. He doesn't have any sway over free agents anymore and neither does the organization. We're not going to obtain a top 6 winger or a top pair defenseman, so what's the use wishing for the impossible.

Getting a tough guy would be easy and cheap.

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To clarify are we talking physical players or "meatheads"? You seem to be going back and forth. Who wouldn't like a physical player who is solid defensively and can score a big goal on occasion. Every team wants a few of those and there aren't that many available.

Holland signed Tootoo, a fighter and agitator, and after injuries to nearly every regular on the team, Babcock chose to play absolutely anyone but him. He made it pretty clear that isn't the type of player he wants on his team.

The Wings have plenty of needs, but an "enforcer" is at the very bottom of the list. The injuries have nothing to do with having an enforcer.

It was 17 years ago.

Not that I'm arguing that the Wings necessarily need a meathead, but the last Cup win the Wings had Aaron Downey in the lineup. And Babcock played him in 56 games.

It's not just an outdated concept from 17 years ago.

With Tootoo I think it was more that he could never really hit effectively without taking himself well out of position. And as admirable as it was that he'd drop the gloves with anyone, he hardly struck fear in the hearts of anyone except when he suckerpunched them. Most of what he did on the Wings was staged fights.

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Getting a tough guy would be easy and cheap. Would it do anything to improve the Wings or prevent any injuries? I doubt it. The Wings never were a "free agent destination" and as has been discussed many times, the free agents who have "shunned" the Wings haven't gone to better teams in better cities or for more money in most cases. Are the Wings too loyal and stick with veteran players way too long? Absolutely. In some cases, it worked, in others it didn't.

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I wonder if Probert(God bless his soul) was riding shotgun on the wing for Z or D what would be outcome?

Probie had the tools to play the game AND be the man playing police officer.

Heck what if it was Kocur instead?

Would this lineup be energized a bit more knowing the little bothersome "rats" would have to answer?

But back to the injury things could be worse.....http://www.tsn.ca/hurricanes-c-jordan-staal-to-undergo-surgery-on-right-leg-1.91360

If Probert was playing now (and clean, if he was doing the crap he did back then now he'd never make it) coaches wouldn't want him to fight much. He had enough talent that they'd want him on the ice, not in the box.

Not that I'm arguing that the Wings necessarily need a meathead, but the last Cup win the Wings had Aaron Downey in the lineup. And Babcock played him in 56 games.

It's not just an outdated concept from 17 years ago.

With Tootoo I think it was more that he could never really hit effectively without taking himself well out of position. And as admirable as it was that he'd drop the gloves with anyone, he hardly struck fear in the hearts of anyone except when he suckerpunched them. Most of what he did on the Wings was staged fights.

And zero playoff games. Mark Hartigan played 4 games that run. Downey had zero influence on the Wings winning the Cup that year.

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If Probert was playing now (and clean, if he was doing the crap he did back then now he'd never make it) coaches wouldn't want him to fight much. He had enough talent that they'd want him on the ice, not in the box.

And zero playoff games. Mark Hartigan played 4 games that run. Downey had zero influence on the Wings winning the Cup that year.

My point wasn't that Downey had a major influence on the Cup as much as it was that the Wings had an enforcer on their team not too long ago who Babcock actually put on the ice for 50+ games and the team still managed to be successful that year.

I'm in no way saying enforcers reduce injuries or they are required to win a Cup, but that doesn't mean they're obsolete either.

Not even regular season and we've had our first thread turn into an enforcer debate. We're ahead of schedule. :D

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Getting a tough guy would be easy and cheap. Would it do anything to improve the Wings or prevent any injuries? I doubt it. The Wings never were a "free agent destination" and as has been discussed many times, the free agents who have "shunned" the Wings haven't gone to better teams in better cities or for more money in most cases. Are the Wings too loyal and stick with veteran players way too long? Absolutely. In some cases, it worked, in others it didn't.

Keeping the other team honest can be correlated to less injuries. Hockey is a physical sport there is no way to 100 % prevent injuries but there are ways to force the other team to clean their act up. One of them is to finally get a another Downey, DMac to take care of business. Yes it's easy and cheap, yet it hasn't been done since our last cup (needless to say the Wings haven't one anything since then and are losing out on top UFA players also).

The Wings were never a free agent destination ? False, there was a team when the Wings could almost dictate the terms and free agents still died to come here...I know it seems like forever. Ehrhoff went to a much better Stanley Cup contender for 4 million that's an absolute steal!

I'm just saying that I'll take a meathead if we can't get a fighter with talent (which I know we won't).

Enforcer may be on the bottom of the list, but the top of the list isn't something Holland seems to be able to realistically address. He doesn't have any sway over free agents anymore and neither does the organization. We're not going to obtain a top 6 winger or a top pair defenseman, so what's the use wishing for the impossible.

Getting a tough guy would be easy and cheap.

The funny thing is those so called "meatheads" are playing a very clean game they know what their job is and they execute it well. I really can't think of any cheapshot by the likes of Colton Orr, Brian McGrattan (guy even gives other enforcers a second chance to guess if they really want to go with him!) or Frazer McLaren.

Also in my mind Tootoo is more of an agitator than an enforcer, yeah he will fight and provide some energy but agitators often need enforcers because they aren't feared, their job is to get under the skin of the other team.

For everyone saying getting g etting a tough guy is low priority...well the team also failed - like GMR 1983 mentioned - to land top pairing or top 6 guys and some of them don't even want to come here so that doesn't leave a lot of options other than hoping for some prospects to turn out much better than expected, otherwise neither Pasha nor Z will see another cup with this team. And personally I'd rather watch an entertaining team than pussysoft one that gets pushed around and have their best player missing time due to ellbows, hard preseason hits...The rematch against the Ottawa Senators was embarrassing.

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Keeping the other team honest can be correlated to less injuries. Hockey is a physical sport there is no way to 100 % prevent injuries but there are ways to force the other team to clean their act up. One of them is to finally get a another Downey, DMac to take care of business. Yes it's easy and cheap, yet it hasn't been done since our last cup (needless to say the Wings haven't one anything since then and are losing out on top UFA players also).

The Wings were never a free agent destination ? False, there was a team when the Wings could almost dictate the terms and free agents still died to come here...I know it seems like forever. Ehrhoff went to a much better Stanley Cup contender for 4 million that's an absolute steal!

The funny thing is those so called "meatheads" are playing a very clean game they know what their job is and they execute it well. I really can't think of any cheapshot by the likes of Colton Orr, Brian McGrattan (guy even gives other enforcers a second chance to guess if they really want to go with him!) or Frazer McLaren.

Also in my mind Tootoo is more of an agitator than an enforcer, yeah he will fight and provide some energy but agitators often need enforcers because they aren't feared, their job is to get under the skin of the other team.

For everyone saying getting g etting a tough guy is low priority...well the team also failed - like GMR 1983 mentioned - to land top pairing or top 6 guys and some of them don't even want to come here so that doesn't leave a lot of options other than hoping for some prospects to turn out much better than expected, otherwise neither Pasha nor Z will see another cup with this team. And personally I'd rather watch an entertaining team than pussysoft one that gets pushed around and have their best player missing time due to ellbows, hard preseason hits...The rematch against the Ottawa Senators was embarrassing.

Again, you're perpetuating a lot of myths with no actual facts behind them. What top 6 Wingers were available in free agency this season that Holland missed out on? Ehrhoff signed with a better team? Really, the team that just fired its General Manager and coach, lost their top defenseman and has a major problem in net? That team? You can say their two top stars are younger than ours, but that's about it. He also only signed a one year deal if I'm not mistaken, so that tells you that there's something more in the works.

Please name some names of all these top free agents that the Wings could pick and choose from that lined up to come here for next to nothing. That's laughable. We signed Hull and Robitaille in 2002 for probably more than they'd get anywhere else, but who were all the other stars that came here via free agency? As we've been over ad nauseum, the very small crop of free agents that do become available today are more apt to sign with teams because of family/friend reasons. Also, who are all these prime destinations that these players are signing to go to. Washington? Minnesota? Columbus?

There's no evidence whatsoever that having an "enforcer" reduces injuries. Since every other team is tougher than the Wings, that would mean that all the other teams would have minimal injuries. That just isn't the case.

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And replace them with skilled players on the top two lines? Holland hasn't proven he can do that well with the salary cap. I'd like a 40 goal scoring winger on the top 6, but it's not going to happen unless it comes from a Nyquist or Tatar. We're not signing anyone soon.

Holland loves spending money on 4th liners like Sammy and Cleary, but doesn't spend less money for a tough guy that is cheaper.

Like I said, fortunately we've got a lot of the answers in the organization already. Any of Jurco, Tatar, or Mantha are more suited to top six work than Abby or Helm. Promote Jurco to the top line, Mantha to the third (once he's healthy) and get Helm and Abby on the fourth. Jurco showed a year ago that even as a rookie he's more offensively competent than those other two, and that would free up Babs to put them on the fourth where they should be.

Doesn't have to be a 40 goal scorer. A 15-20 goal scorer is still an upgrade over Helm or Abby.

Edited by kipwinger

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Like I said, fortunately we've got a lot of the answers in the organization already. Any of Jurco, Tatar, or Mantha are more suited to top six work than Abby or Helm. Promote Jurco to the top line, Mantha to the third (once he's healthy) and get Helm and Abby on the fourth. Jurco showed a year ago that even as a rookie he's more offensively competent than those other two, and that would free up Babs to put them on the fourth where they should be.

Doesn't have to be a 40 goal scorer. A 15-20 goal scorer is still an upgrade over Helm or Abby.

Helm : 12 goals in 42 games without Z or Dats. 15 goals in 82 games doesn't sound like an upgrade. Let's at least give him a chance in this new role before we consign him to the same category as Abby.

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Helm : 12 goals in 42 games without Z or Dats. 15 goals in 82 games doesn't sound like an upgrade. Let's at least give him a chance in this new role before we consign him to the same category as Abby.

Helm rode an unsustainably high shooting percentage to the best numbers of his career and then fell off completely. He'll never post numbers like that again in his career. Take it to the bank.

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Helm rode an unsustainably high shooting percentage to the best numbers of his career and then fell off completely. He'll never post numbers like that again in his career. Take it to the bank.

I agree. I have never liked the idea of Helm playing on the top line. It might be slightly better than Abby, but again we are talking about two players that are much better suited for the third or fourth line. Helm has little finishing ability -- playing with Pavel and/or Z isn't going to magically change that.

Play Jurco there instead. I mean God forbid we ever give Datsyuk a winger that can actually finish.

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