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trule23

Babcock "I don't think it will be my final year here"

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Glendening had a very good game. The first game, not so much. He's probably closer to the player he showed in the first game though and really isn't one of the 12 best forwards.

Lol!! Glendening was really good last night, but he probably isn't really good cause that would make me wrong so im just going to make up meaningless things.

Truth is Glendening is a gym rat, a workaholic, he is probably closer to the guy you saw in game two

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Lol!! Glendening was really good last night, but he probably isn't really good cause that would make me wrong so im just going to make up meaningless things.

Truth is Glendening is a gym rat, a workaholic, he is probably closer to the guy you saw in game two

Truth is Glendening has a very limited skill set that limits him to being a guy who can skate around and piss people off. He's not really that great positionally in his own end, his hands make Abdelkader look like a 50 goal guy, and most nights he wins less than half his faceoffs. Most guys who make it to the NHL are gym rats and work their asses off to get there and stay there, Glendening isn't anything special there.

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Babcock has to like the direction of the young kids moving forward.

And he has his heart and soul guys here, I'm just wondering what kind of expansion of his power they can offer him since they resigned Holland, especially since the whole power struggle for the roster thing came up(which I don't believe is anywhere near as volatile as its been twisted) but when guys like Roy have the control he does, you have to think babs will want something more.

The only team I'm worried about him leaving for is the pens.

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Babcock has to like the direction of the young kids moving forward.

And he has his heart and soul guys here, I'm just wondering what kind of expansion of his power they can offer him since they resigned Holland, especially since the whole power struggle for the roster thing came up(which I don't believe is anywhere near as volatile as its been twisted) but when guys like Roy have the control he does, you have to think babs will want something more.

The only team I'm worried about him leaving for is the pens.

That has me extremely worried for a couple of reasons:

1. Eastern conference

2. Crosby, Malkin and Letang coached by Babcock ? OUCH for every other team

3. Lemieux and Burkle will send a huge truck full of money to his house and they can offer him all the control he wants, because Rutherford is only there to mentor Botterill and once Botterill takes over he won#t have the legacy of a Ken Holland so that's outright a dream job for Babcock.

The Darkhorse in all of this for me are the Blues, they are the perfect Babcock type of team (big, mean and their defense is one of the best in the whole league), plus Pietrangelo will soon be one of the best if not the best defender in the NHL.

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Annoying Babcock quote of the day...

"I think we've played hard, we've played well. We've been in 10 games now, we haven't scored. So, eight in the exhibition and then two in the regular season and you don't score real easy so far. We're looking forward to Pavel (Datsyuk) to get back one day and get guys back in their right spots and we might score a little more. I'm impressed with how hard we work. I'm impressed with our specialty teams, impressed with our team speed. We've got to finish more."

Think that has anything to do with the fact that you're dressing Abby, Helm, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, and Nestrasil? I mean, what a surprise that your first line produced more when you replaced Abby with Nyquist. Hard to believe putting offensive players in offensive situations yields offense.

If you want more offensive maybe send "Nesty" back down for someone who can score, or get Andersson off the wing (or off the team), or try plugging Weiss in...ya know...because he's been consistently good offensively his entire career. Just a couple of thoughts anyway.

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I do somewhat agree with what Babs is saying, in that Pav will be a huge boost offensively. But once again he is making fans scratch their collective heads, wondering why the hell Weiss hasn't been added to the lineup with so many borderline 3/4 line players in. All of the players you mentioned have impressed me in the first two games, especially Abdelkader, but he still should not be in the top 6. Just curious Kip, what would your ideal forward lines and defense pairings look like with everyone healthy?

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I do somewhat agree with what Babs is saying, in that Pav will be a huge boost offensively. But once again he is making fans scratch their collective heads, wondering why the hell Weiss hasn't been added to the lineup with so many borderline 3/4 line players in. All of the players you mentioned have impressed me in the first two games, especially Abdelkader, but he still should not be in the top 6. Just curious Kip, what would your ideal forward lines and defense pairings look like with everyone healthy?

I'm not mad as long as we're winning. I just don't think it's some big mystery why we're not scoring much. And I completely agree with you that those guys have been impressive. They've played the game they're supposed to. That game just happens not to be very offensive.

Ideal lines...

Z-Pav-Jurco

Franzen-Weiss-Nyquist

Abby-Sheahan-Tatar

Miller-Helm-Glendening

Kronwall-Ericsson

Smith-Dekeyser

Quincey-Kindl

That's with everyone healthy and no roster changes. Obviously, if I could start waiving guys and promoting guys then it would change a little, but not much.

Edited by kipwinger

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That he's saying that and Weiss isn't in is telling. I don't know of what exactly, but it's telling of something...either Weiss isn't ready or Weiss done gone and screwed up something big time in terms of his relationship to this team.

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That he's saying that and Weiss isn't in is telling. I don't know of what exactly, but it's telling of something...either Weiss isn't ready or Weiss done gone and screwed up something big time in terms of his relationship to this team.

Not necessarily. Babs buried Legwand on the fourth line wing last year and it had nothing to do with injuries or effectiveness. When he demoted him Legwand was centering the best offensive line we had all season. So, there's always the chance that Babs just doesn't like the guy, regardless of how much he could help, or how well he plays.

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Not necessarily. Babs buried Legwand on the fourth line wing last year and it had nothing to do with injuries or effectiveness. When he demoted him Legwand was centering the best offensive line we had all season. So, there's always the chance that Babs just doesn't like the guy, regardless of how much he could help, or how well he plays.

Ask the GM then why he keeps signing or trading the future for guys that don't fit with the coach ? It's like a boss buying a gaming pc and expects you to do higher end video editing with it (won't work).

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Ask the GM then why he keeps signing or trading the future for guys that don't fit with the coach ? It's like a boss buying a gaming pc and expects you to do higher end video editing with it (won't work).

The GM has had the exact same philosophy since he took over the position in 1997 and it's been pretty successful. I'm not sure why you think he should change it for the coach all of a sudden. We have drafted and developed based on skill for 20+ years. Our organization (from top to bottom) is founded upon it, our scouts are some of the best in the world at seeing a guy like Gustav Nyquist and imagining what he'll be when he matures. You want them to stop doing that and change the whole organizational philosophy because you don't like it? So what? It works.

Secondly, stop with the ******* hyperbole will you? Nobody "traded the future" for anything. We've got so many NHL ready prospects we can't get them all into the lineup, and we've got even better prospects coming. It would be a lot easier to talk to you if didn't constantly distort reality to justify some anodyne point you're stuck on for the day.

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Kip, I do like those lines but not exactly what I'd go with, but then again, not many people are going to agree on the exact same lines and defense pairings... Who would you scratch / send down / call up with that option available?

My lines would look something like this...

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen

Tatar - Datsyuk - Jurco

Helm - Weiss - Sheahan (I know you'll hate this line with 3 centers but I think it could be a great 3rd line until Weiss gets going...)

Miller - Glendening - Abdelkader

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Smith

Quincey - Ouellet

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Kip, I do like those lines but not exactly what I'd go with, but then again, not many people are going to agree on the exact same lines and defense pairings... Who would you scratch / send down / call up with that option available?

My lines would look something like this...

Nyquist - Zetterberg - Franzen

Tatar - Datsyuk - Jurco

Helm - Weiss - Sheahan (I know you'll hate this line with 3 centers but I think it could be a great 3rd line until Weiss gets going...)

Miller - Glendening - Abdelkader

Kronwall - Ericsson

DeKeyser - Smith

Quincey - Ouellet

I largely agree, but you're right, I hate that third line. Weiss isn't going to get going if you give him two linemates who have never played on the wing for any significant amount of time, and haven't ever really been known for offensive production when at their natural positions. Putting Weiss with nonscorers means he's got to shoulder the offensive load, which is the exact opposite of easing him into it until his confidence returns. Give him wingers or trade/waive him. Carolina would pick him up tomorrow (all their centers are hurt and they suck).

Anyway, heading out for the night. Good talking to you though.

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Annoying Babcock quote of the day...

"I think we've played hard, we've played well. We've been in 10 games now, we haven't scored. So, eight in the exhibition and then two in the regular season and you don't score real easy so far. We're looking forward to Pavel (Datsyuk) to get back one day and get guys back in their right spots and we might score a little more. I'm impressed with how hard we work. I'm impressed with our specialty teams, impressed with our team speed. We've got to finish more."

Think that has anything to do with the fact that you're dressing Abby, Helm, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, and Nestrasil? I mean, what a surprise that your first line produced more when you replaced Abby with Nyquist. Hard to believe putting offensive players in offensive situations yields offense.

If you want more offensive maybe send "Nesty" back down for someone who can score, or get Andersson off the wing (or off the team), or try plugging Weiss in...ya know...because he's been consistently good offensively his entire career. Just a couple of thoughts anyway.

Who should they call up to take Nestrasil's place?

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Datsyuk's bolting for Russia!!!

Babcock's bolting for a team that can win the cup yesterday!!!

Sensationalist journalism is all it is.

The guy is not negotiating his contract during the season, but said he doubts he's leaving. We're gonna have to wait. He's a pretty level headed guy though who speaks what he means from all that I've gathered over the years. If he said "I don't know if I'll be a Wing next year or not" I'd be 50/50 worried/notworried. But he said he thinks he'll be here, this should be in the back of our minds just like it is in his.

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Not necessarily. Babs buried Legwand on the fourth line wing last year and it had nothing to do with injuries or effectiveness. When he demoted him Legwand was centering the best offensive line we had all season. So, there's always the chance that Babs just doesn't like the guy, regardless of how much he could help, or how well he plays.

Legwand wasn't our biggest free agent acquisition in years though, and he at least played. Weiss has been a healthy scratch. Again, a player with a $4.9 million cap hit has been a healthy scratch for the first two games of the season. Sure, Babcock might not like him, but I don't think Holland would let that fly if there wasn't a damn good reason, or if Weiss simply isn't really ready. He may be "healthy" relative to his prior injury problems, but perhaps his conditioning is not close to where it should be, or something along those lines. This can't be so simple as "Babcock doesn't like him." I get that it's easy to cast Babcock in such a way when you're making broad strokes, but you don't get away with making decisions to bench a player like Weiss for petty reasons in the NHL.

We signed this guy to be our 2nd line center a little over a year ago; he's the 3rd highest paid player on the team that's not a goalie. He's got a deal that's structured almost the same salary-wise as Kronwall's, who is the anchor of our defense! If this goes on, I think you have to figure that Holland is in agreement with Babcock on the matter, and if so, Weiss is currently at a sub-Samuelsson level within the organization. Even Sammy started the first couple games last year before we had to worry about injuries to stars like we have this year, and he wasn't even making nearly as much money. Nothing about this smells right.

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Legwand wasn't our biggest free agent acquisition in years though, and he at least played. Weiss has been a healthy scratch. Again, a player with a $4.9 million cap hit has been a healthy scratch for the first two games of the season. Sure, Babcock might not like him, but I don't think Holland would let that fly if there wasn't a damn good reason, or if Weiss simply isn't really ready. He may be "healthy" relative to his prior injury problems, but perhaps his conditioning is not close to where it should be, or something along those lines. This can't be so simple as "Babcock doesn't like him." I get that it's easy to cast Babcock in such a way when you're making broad strokes, but you don't get away with making decisions to bench a player like Weiss for petty reasons in the NHL.

We signed this guy to be our 2nd line center a little over a year ago; he's the 3rd highest paid player on the team that's not a goalie. He's got a deal that's structured almost the same salary-wise as Kronwall's, who is the anchor of our defense! If this goes on, I think you have to figure that Holland is in agreement with Babcock on the matter, and if so, Weiss is currently at a sub-Samuelsson level within the organization. Even Sammy started the first couple games last year before we had to worry about injuries to stars like we have this year, and he wasn't even making nearly as much money. Nothing about this smells right.

I liked this because you’ve just successfully coined the phrase “sub-Samuelsson”. Which I’m going to start using all the time.

“Sucks that your new car got scratched"

“Yeah, that was totally sub-Samuelson"

:lol:

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The GM has had the exact same philosophy since he took over the position in 1997 and it's been pretty successful. I'm not sure why you think he should change it for the coach all of a sudden. We have drafted and developed based on skill for 20+ years. Our organization (from top to bottom) is founded upon it, our scouts are some of the best in the world at seeing a guy like Gustav Nyquist and imagining what he'll be when he matures. You want them to stop doing that and change the whole organizational philosophy because you don't like it? So what? It works.

Secondly, stop with thef****** hyperbole will you? Nobody "traded the future" for anything. We've got so many NHL ready prospects we can't get them all into the lineup, and we've got even better prospects coming. It would be a lot easier to talk to you if didn't constantly distort reality to justify some anodyne point you're stuck on for the day.

Drafting is one thing, but look at the guy's record with free agents lately. You really want to defend him there? And for the record, outside players we bring in through free-agency or trade is what was being referenced, not the drafting and development system. Drafting I think is the one area that most everyone agrees that Holland/the organization has a good handle on. I don't think Babcock has any sort of a problem with the guys we develop either, clearly. If anything, I'd say it's quite the opposite. He seems more pissed he can't bring up the people he wants from GR because Holland has made so many terrible moves in free agency the last few years, which again, was the point of the post you replied to.

And so again, I ask, do you really want to defend Holland's work in the free agency market lately?

Personally, I don't think it matters who the coach is when you look at many of those deals; they were just bad deals. Too many guys have been signed for too much money that just should not have been signed at all, especially when you're a GM that constantly whines about not wanting to overpay for premium talent.

You talk of having the same philosophy for 20 years, but when it comes to building a team, it's a different world in the cap era than it was 20 years ago. You can still draft and develop the same as you always have, because that's all the more important in the cap era, but how you acquire outside talent is a whole new game. You can't just throw money and tradition at the problem anymore. And really, any way you shake it, Holland has clearly struggled with acquiring outside talent in the cap era, especially as time has gone on and the realities of the cap started to weigh down on the team. Hell, what seemed like a big win in getting Weiss has been nothing but ugly thus far, and given the slew of signings that preceded that deal, you've got to stop and ask some serious questions about Holland's strategies with outside acquisition if you're going to be at all objective. It's a very, very, very reasonable thing to question and be concerned about at this point, if you're not just flat out fed up with it already.

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The GM has had the exact same philosophy since he took over the position in 1997 and it's been pretty successful. I'm not sure why you think he should change it for the coach all of a sudden. We have drafted and developed based on skill for 20+ years. Our organization (from top to bottom) is founded upon it, our scouts are some of the best in the world at seeing a guy like Gustav Nyquist and imagining what he'll be when he matures. You want them to stop doing that and change the whole organizational philosophy because you don't like it? So what? It works.

Secondly, stop with the ******* hyperbole will you? Nobody "traded the future" for anything. We've got so many NHL ready prospects we can't get them all into the lineup, and we've got even better prospects coming. It would be a lot easier to talk to you if didn't constantly distort reality to justify some anodyne point you're stuck on for the day.

No, he hasn't but this thread is about Babcock so I won't discuss the failings of the GM here. But it should be common sense that a GM and coach are working hand in hand in order to get at least players who fit in with the idea of a coach on how he wants to play.

No, I also won't stop with something so obvious if it's used to defend something that's out of our coach's control. Wings traded for a player who didn't fit with in so he gets demoted to a bottom 6 role..

Reality is this:

Babcock won't negotiate during the season and come July others will talk to him also and that to me is scary. Yes, the team has some upcoming young players but other teams do too and they have superstars in their prime...plus Babcock would have more of a say in whom he wants.

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Drafting is one thing, but look at the guy's record with free agents lately. You really want to defend him there? And for the record, outside players we bring in through free-agency or trade is what was being referenced, not the drafting and development system. Drafting I think is the one area that most everyone agrees that Holland/the organization has a good handle on. I don't think Babcock has any sort of a problem with the guys we develop either, clearly. If anything, I'd say it's quite the opposite. He seems more pissed he can't bring up the people he wants from GR because Holland has made so many terrible moves in free agency the last few years, which again, was the point of the post you replied to.

And so again, I ask, do you really want to defend Holland's work in the free agency market lately?

Personally, I don't think it matters who the coach is when you look at many of those deals; they were just bad deals. Too many guys have been signed for too much money that just should not have been signed at all, especially when you're a GM that constantly whines about not wanting to overpay for premium talent.

You talk of having the same philosophy for 20 years, but when it comes to building a team, it's a different world in the cap era than it was 20 years ago. You can still draft and develop the same as you always have, because that's all the more important in the cap era, but how you acquire outside talent is a whole new game. You can't just throw money and tradition at the problem anymore. And really, any way you shake it, Holland has clearly struggled with acquiring outside talent in the cap era, especially as time has gone on and the realities of the cap started to weigh down on the team. Hell, what seemed like a big win in getting Weiss has been nothing but ugly thus far, and given the slew of signings that preceded that deal, you've got to stop and ask some serious questions about Holland's strategies with outside acquisition if you're going to be at all objective. It's a very, very, very reasonable thing to question and be concerned about at this point, if you're not just flat out fed up with it already.

I think the "ineffectiveness" of Holland signing free agents is greatly exaggerated. People have very short memories, its as if Weiss and Alfie never came here. Weiss being injured last year some how dismisses the he came here in the eyes of some. In the case of Alfie, he left a team he played on for almost 2 decades and turned down a reported offer from the Bruins to come here. But since he is older, again, people dismiss it, regardless of the outcomes, they were top UFA's 15months ago, and we got them.

Losing out on Boyle (wanted to play with St. Louis), Erhoff (lost out on to an elite team), Nitkansen (Wsh offered more $$/stupid contract and he had ties), and Suter (wanted to be closer to his family) does not mean we are horrible at signing free agents. Its a different NHL in 2014, and when a top UFA becomes available, its not simply a handful of teams that are trying to sign him, you are competing against potentially 29 other teams. Once you take into consideration that the free agent pools now a days are generally weak and that lately where a player signs seems to be coming down the city that the player has personal ties in its extremely hard to sign big time free agents. I'm not saying the Wings couldn't do better, but to imply that Holland is weak in this area I believe is an overreaction.

Criticizing the Weiss signing is very unfair, Holland had no way of predicting the groin injury as he had no major prior history. His only major injury was a broken wrist which should not follow someone once its fully healed.

.

Also, one point people have a tendency of overlooking when it comes to Holland/Free agents, is the amount of free agents he retains. The guys rarely loses superstars not named Hossa. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom etc. all had a chance to walk, but instead resigned. You have to remember, every time a team gains in free agency, another team loses, and while Detroit has not necessarily been gaining a ton lately, they have not been losing either. I am also glad Holland is not making crippling moves in free agency like a lot of teams out there. Some of the contracts being given out are absolutely terrible.

Other then the Quincey signing, and Cleary promise last year (which isn't that bad given his 2012 playoffs), I think Holland has done a fine job overall in the past few years in regards to free agents.

Edited by kliq

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Guest DeGraa55

I think the "ineffectiveness" of Holland signing free agents is greatly exaggerated. People have very short memories, its as if Weiss and Alfie never came here. Weiss being injured last year some how dismisses the he came here in the eyes of some. In the case of Alfie, he left a team he played on for almost 2 decades and turned down a reported offer from the Bruins to come here. But since he is older, again, people dismiss it, regardless of the outcomes, they were top UFA's 15months ago, and we got them.

Losing out on Boyle (wanted to play with St. Louis), Erhoff (lost out on to an elite team), Nitkansen (Wsh offered more $$/stupid contract and he had ties), and Suter (wanted to be closer to his family) does not mean we are horrible at signing free agents. Its a different NHL in 2014, and when a top UFA becomes available, its not simply a handful of teams that are trying to sign him, you are competing against potentially 29 other teams. Once you take into consideration that the free agent pools now a days are generally weak and that lately where a player signs seems to be coming down the city that the player has personal ties in its extremely hard to sign big time free agents. I'm not saying the Wings couldn't do better, but to imply that Holland is weak in this area I believe is an overreaction.

Criticizing the Weiss signing is very unfair, Holland had no way of predicting the groin injury as he had no major prior history. His only major injury was a broken wrist which should not follow someone once its fully healed.

.

Also, one point people have a tendency of overlooking when it comes to Holland/Free agents, is the amount of free agents he retains. The guys rarely loses superstars not named Hossa. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Lidstrom etc. all had a chance to walk, but instead resigned. You have to remember, every time a team gains in free agency, another team loses, and while Detroit has not necessarily been gaining a ton lately, they have not been losing either. I am also glad Holland is not making crippling moves in free agency like a lot of teams out there. Some of the contracts being given out are absolutely terrible.

Other then the Quincey signing, and Cleary promise last year (which isn't that bad given his 2012 playoffs), I think Holland has done a fine job overall in the past few years in regards to free agents.

Because Weiss has done so much for us.

Also wasn't it Ottawa that cut ties? Thought they told Alfie they didn't have the money to resign him.

The point is when is the last time the wings targeted a big name free agent and they did great things here? Most of our targets want nothing to do with us. Weiss hasn't done anything and idk if e had offered from other teams or not. Alfie made a piss poor decision in choosing us over one other team which actually was competing for a cup in te bruins.

No one is taking away from the luck and skill we have in drafting players. But free agency and trades have been Hollands negative for awhile now.

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Just let me get this straight : Because Alfie made a "piss poor" decision, it's all Holland fault ? When Alfie choose us above the Bruins despite our slim chances to win him a Cup shouldn't Holland get credit for bringing such a player here ?

I think the point is that Holland shouldn't get credit for anything...ever.

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