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nyqvististhefuture

Are the wings underrated?

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No, Nyquist was the only one that could go down without being exposed to waivers. Anybody could be sent down. The whole team can be sent down. Depends on whether you're willing to waive someone. Holland waives guys all the time. So why didn't he do it to start last year? Well I suspect that it has at least something to do with a coach who has EXPLICITLY made clear that until this season he preferred to have veterans in the lineup over unproven kids.

No?? That's exactly what I wrote.

Nyquist was the only player who could be sent down without having to clear waivers, so he was.

I think he had something like 2 games left before that was no longer the case.

Yes, I'm sure Babcock made explicitly clear he wanted a veteran like Tootoo on the team. Just not on the ice. Like in the press box. Or minors.

I'm guessing Holland didn't do it to start last year because he wanted to see if his bad signings would improve a bit. Sammy was coming back from injury and might regain his form. And maybe Tootoo would provide something more than staged fights. Neither one happened so he finally cut bait. I don't actually fault him for that regarding Samuelsson. I didn't like the signing but it's better for the team if he could've salvaged something out of that contract.

In general I think Babcock does err on the side of using veterans who he knows are less likely to make a mistake that could give up a goal, even if it means sacrificing potential offensive upside from using a younger player. But that's not what happened with Nyquist.

The Wings were in a roster and cap crunch and Nyquist was the victim due to his contract status.

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That completely ignores that fact that we lost more close games than we won. Look at our dismal overtime and shootout record. If keeping games close was such a brilliant strategy you would think we'd have won more of those eh?

Edited for accuracy: We lost more close game, but not "many" more close games.

So what if they lost more close games than not? That doesn't discredit the fact Babcock had the team playing a style of hockey that gave them a chance to win on most nights. Sometimes you get the bounces, or a kid gets a hot streak, sometimes you regress to the the mean and the team with more skill actually wins.

Also, trapping your way to victory isn't some sort of Babcockian master stroke. Teams without a lot of skill have done it for years. The New Jersey Devils organization has (and continues to have) considerable success with that strategy. As has Dave Tippet and the Coyotes, and Barry Trotz with the Predators. That's what teams without a lot of skill players do. Yet when Babcock does it, he's a genius who "heroically" coached the no skilled Red Wings to a first round playoff loss.

I hope you can identify more strategy than just trapping, kip. You're better than that. Babs had everyone back checking hard, supporting the puck tightly, playing on the right side of the puck at all times, even if it meant less chances for an odd-man rush in our favor. The team was playing a soft swarm in the defensive zone pretty effectively, and doing a good job keeping the puck along the perimeter most nights. They've been relieving deep zone pressure by going up the middle for years and other teams are just now starting to adapt that strategy as well. In the offensive zone players are rarely caught deep on a turnover. And again, many of the guys playing last year started in the AHL and thus didn't have any experience playing under Babcock, so I imagine there was an added variable for adjusting to playing under a new coach and a new system, with a new role.

And just for the record, the three teams you mentioned who also play the trap effectively failed to make the playoffs last year, despite a healthier roster than the Wings.

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No?? That's exactly what I wrote.

I think he had something like 2 games left before that was no longer the case.

Yes, I'm sure Babcock made explicitly clear he wanted a veteran like Tootoo on the team. Just not on the ice. Like in the press box. Or minors.

I'm guessing Holland didn't do it to start last year because he wanted to see if his bad signings would improve a bit. Sammy was coming back from injury and might regain his form. And maybe Tootoo would provide something more than staged fights. Neither one happened so he finally cut bait. I don't actually fault him for that regarding Samuelsson. I didn't like the signing but it's better for the team if he could've salvaged something out of that contract.

In general I think Babcock does err on the side of using veterans who he knows are less likely to make a mistake that could give up a goal, even if it means sacrificing potential offensive upside from using a younger player. But that's not what happened with Nyquist.

The Wings were in a roster and cap crunch and Nyquist was the victim due to his contract status.

There's no law against waiving guys. You make it seem like Holland's signings gave the team zero options. Waive any two of Tootoo, Eaves, Andersson, Cleary, Bertuzzi, and/or Samuelsson and Nyquist starts the season with the Wings. But Babs, by his own admission, preferred a veteran team. He got a veteran team. He used a veteran team until injuries forced Tatar (and eventually Nyquist, Sheahan, and Jurco) into the lineup. And then we finally started winning some games...despite Babcock's philosophy. Not because of it. So much so that he had to publicly change his philosophy this season. Now "tie goes to the best player". Which, by the way, idiotically insinuates that in the past, Mike Babcock has specifically NOT played the BEST players.

You make it seem like if Babs had his way we'd have had a totally different team to start the season. Nothing about his coaching philosophy up to this point suggests that given his way he'd have had played those kids. He either had no idea that the kids were better than the veterans they were replacing (which calls into question his evaluative skills) or he did and played the veterans anyway (which calls into question his judgement).

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So what if they lost more close games than not? That doesn't discredit the fact Babcock had the team playing a style of hockey that gave them a chance to win on most nights. Sometimes you get the bounces, or a kid gets a hot streak, sometimes you regress to the the mean and the team with more skill actually wins.

I hope you can identify more strategy than just trapping, kip. You're better than that. Babs had everyone back checking hard, supporting the puck tightly, playing on the right side of the puck at all times, even if it meant less chances for an odd-man rush in our favor. The team was playing a soft swarm in the defensive zone pretty effectively, and doing a good job keeping the puck along the perimeter most nights. They've been relieving deep zone pressure by going up the middle for years and other teams are just now starting to adapt that strategy as well. In the offensive zone players are rarely caught deep on a turnover. And again, many of the guys playing last year started in the AHL and thus didn't have any experience playing under Babcock, so I imagine there was an added variable for adjusting to playing under a new coach and a new system, with a new role.

And just for the record, the three teams you mentioned who also play the trap effectively failed to make the playoffs last year, despite a healthier roster than the Wings.

He had them playing a style of game that leads many less-skilled teams to limited success. I agree. That doesn't make him "heroic", or a "genius". Many other coaches have used a similar strategy to have limited success in the past. Since when does adopting standard practice make someone heroic?

The true "heroes" last season were a bunch of kids taking a team on their backs and outperforming expectations night in and night out. NOBODY, including our coach and GM, thought that Nyquist or Tatar were capable of what they did. Let alone Sheahan, Jurco, Glendening.

But all hail Mike Babcock because he was forced to focus more heavily on defense given that his offensive stars were hurt. Nobody else would have ever thought of that.

Mike Babcock is a good coach. Evidence of that is 2003, 2008, and 2009. Not 2014.

Edited by kipwinger

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He had them playing a style of game that leads many less-skilled teams to limited success. I agree. That doesn't make him "heroic", or a "genius". Many other coaches have used a similar strategy to have limited success in the past. Since when does adopting standard practice make someone heroic?

The true "heroes" last season were a bunch of kids taking a team on their backs and outperforming expectations night in and night out. NOBODY, including our coach and GM, thought that Nyquist or Tatar were capable of what they did. Let alone Sheahan, Jurco, Glendening.

But all hail Mike Babcock because he was forced to focus more heavily on defense given that his offensive stars were hurt. Nobody else would have ever thought of that.

Mike Babcock is a good coach. Evidence of that is 2003, 2008, and 2009. Not 2014.

Adopting standard practice is heroic when everyone has written off your roster as a bunch of patches and bandaids that have no business making the playoffs, and you still find a way in. As I mentioned above, Trotz failed to successfully adopt standard practice last year and his roster was more competent. Same thing with Tippett and just about every coach in the NHL who didn't make the playoffs. Babs got further than every team below the Wings despite having less proven talent than each of those teams. And as I already alluded to, there's more to it that just telling your roster to play within a certain system. A large chunk of our roster had little to no NHL experience. They hadn't played the roles that Babcock expected them to play in the past. He had to have everyone on the same page, and buying into the system, and help a lot of these kids grow into competent NHL players. He also had to do with without many of our on-ice leaders present to help ease the transition.

The rest of your post seems like you're implying that I don't think the kids deserve much credit in getting us to the playoffs, which is incorrect. I mentioned a few posts above that Nyqvist's streak was an anomaly, and without that anomaly the Wings don't make the playoffs. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Tatar leading by example and showing the amount of heart that he did. I don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Sheahan and Jurco stepping up, or Gus when Jimmy was faltering. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs with anyone else behind the bench.

And I think were at the point in the debate where both sides have said their thoughts, and we're both content not budging.

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Adopting standard practice is heroic when everyone has written off your roster as a bunch of patches and bandaids that have no business making the playoffs, and you still find a way in. As I mentioned above, Trotz failed to successfully adopt standard practice last year and his roster was more competent. Same thing with Tippett and just about every coach in the NHL who didn't make the playoffs. Babs got further than every team below the Wings despite having less proven talent than each of those teams. And as I already alluded to, there's more to it that just telling your roster to play within a certain system. A large chunk of our roster had little to no NHL experience. They hadn't played the roles that Babcock expected them to play in the past. He had to have everyone on the same page, and buying into the system, and help a lot of these kids grow into competent NHL players. He also had to do with without many of our on-ice leaders present to help ease the transition.

The rest of your post seems like you're implying that I don't think the kids deserve much credit in getting us to the playoffs, which is incorrect. I mentioned a few posts above that Nyqvist's streak was an anomaly, and without that anomaly the Wings don't make the playoffs. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Tatar leading by example and showing the amount of heart that he did. I don't think the Wings make the playoffs without Sheahan and Jurco stepping up, or Gus when Jimmy was faltering. I also don't think the Wings make the playoffs with anyone else behind the bench.

And I think were at the point in the debate where both sides have said their thoughts, and we're both content not bud

If you've already admitted that he just did what any other coach out do (standard practice), which you have, then it doesn't make sense to say that nobody else could do it. It's a contradictory statement. The key variable is the execution. Which is on the players.

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If you've already admitted that he just did what any other coach out do (standard practice), which you have, then it doesn't make sense to say that nobody else could do it. It's a contradictory statement. The key variable is the execution. Which is on the players.

Attempting standard practice (or any practice) and successfully executing it has just as much to do with the coach and his motivational skills, practice regimes, interpersonal relationships, ability to teach, develop, etc etc as it does the players successfully carrying out their responsibilities, so I will fundamentally disagree with you there.

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1. Yes it does but other teams had injuries too as sad as it is, it's part of the game. In my mind Goose absolutely exploded expecting him to repeat such a performance over the course of a season is unfair. Counting on a fairly healthy roster is nice but at the end of the day older teams are more prone to injuries. I prefer to look at things realistically and by expecting a bad season (for Wings standards) they can only surprise me in a positive way so I guess it will lead to more fun watching the young - hopefully - soon stars play. But given the chance I honestly prefer watching Bruins - Habs, Maple Leafs - Habs, Canucks - Flames , Flames - Leafs or Flames - Bruins I have a feeling those games will be more entertaining than Wings - Florida, Buffalo, Isles ...

2. Tatar completely changed blew my mind not only with his play but also with his unreal mindset (playing after this horrible story) and scoring a goal, so I hope he explodes ala Goose. Yes, Weiss has looked a lot better and kinda bulked up a bit ? but please keep in mind it's only the pre-season. In terms of Goose I fully agree with you if he can score 20 - 25 goalson a regular basis that would be absolutely huge he [Goose] obviously has the talent to do it. The other teams aren't stupid I'm sure they've done their homework and now know how good Tatar, Goose, Danny are which is bad for our young guns but could also mean more space for Z and Pasha.

3. In my mind the Bruins played really bad against the Habs, Rask looked shaky compared to Price and Boston never found a way to replace that Chara - Seidenberg combo but if they meet again I would still bet on the Bruins they are much (or at least should be) a much better and more likeable team.

The defensive core does have more problems than just getting the puck to the forwards and running the powerplay, they aren't phsysical enough. Other teams don't pay a price for standing in front of the net and screening Howard or the monster, do that against Boston and Chara, Lucic and McQuaid will make one thing very clear ...stay there and prepare to get pushed of forced out! Sadly the drop off after Danny, Kronwall and Ericsson is huge and I really don't think Oulett, Sproul or Jensen should be trusted to be heavy hitters or playing QB at their first pro-season (if they even make the team). At the end when I'm looking at the last 3 years as an example it is clear to me that the Wings are rated where they should be, it's up to the team to proof experts, fans and the media wrong. We are just fans we can't control anything so it doesn't matter what we think the team has to perform to their abilities will it be good enough for a 24 playoff berth ? Maybe maybe not but like I said, I prefer to look at iat rationally and of course being bad in a McEichel year isn't the worst thing in the world :-)

I suppose we just have a different perspective. I don't expect the Wings to be wholly successful - I expect them to land somewhere from #4-8 in the East, and I feel like that's realistic. The difference between last year and this year (in theory) is the number of games Red Wings are playing at their highest level. You have your best players playing their best hockey, and it's bound to be a better year. I actually feel like last season was so rough in terms of man games lost that there's nowhere to go but up.

I get the idea of reeling in expectations when it comes to players returning from injury, but Weiss has looked heads and shoulders better, IMO. He had a ton of skating issues last season and looked terribly slow. Even if it's been a couple games, his skating is much more fluid. Not saying he's going to be a 60 point guy, but I think he's going to show some serious improvement.

I agree about him being a passive guy, but that's always been the case. I think the best way Weiss is going to be used is between guys like Mule, Tatar, Nyquist, etc. Give him those trigger men and he'll be given an opportunity to set them up. The thing about other teams catching on to Goose, Tatar, Danny, etc. is that the team has some depth at forward. If this team can run three scoring lines, it gives them that much more offensive punch. If you're taking away space from Goose, you're leaving Mule open. Taking it away from Tatar, and perhaps Jurco gets some room. The depth at forward is something I'm optimistic about on this team.

The Bruins are a good team - I don't think there's any denying that. For as much as you believe they played poorly against the Habs, I also think the Wings played poorly against them. While I think the right team won the series, I really think Detroit could have pushed them a lot more. It was just a flat effort from the team.

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If someone would pay 1 $ everytime that stupid injury thing is used, I'd be able to buy my own team by now.

Of course people mention this frequently, its fact. If a person is going to make a rational and logical arguement, I would expect they use facts in their arguments opposed to emotion.

1. Yes it does but other teams had injuries too as sad as it is, it's part of the game. In my mind Goose absolutely exploded expecting him to repeat such a performance over the course of a season is unfair. Counting on a fairly healthy roster is nice but at the end of the day older teams are more prone to injuries. entertaining than Wings - Florida, Buffalo, Isles ...

You constantly refer to the Wings as an old team, yet if you look at their lineup its filled with young players. Do you really think there is a better change of Z, D, Kronwall, regressing, then Gus, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Smith, DD getting better? Young players improve, the Smith of 2014 is not necessarily the Smith of 2015, I would hope with 1 more year of experience, and with Babcock leading the way, all these players will get better. Then throw in less injuries, I dont see how you can be so overly pessimistic regarding this team. Yes we probably know what we are going to get with Franzen, Cleary & Quincey, but that's 3 players.

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We get it Kip, you don't like Babcock, he's not a great coach, totally overrated. You're right, the rest of the hockey world is wrong. Also, Smith sucks and will never be worth a damn...

I don't think he doesn't like Babcock, he just thinks people are overstating his role in us making the playoffs last year. Babs adopted a defensive game because our offensive talent was gone. Good on him for seeing and realizing that, but that is exactly what any good coach would have done. It's not like he created a new style of play to perfectly form to our roster. He changed to a defensive game that allowed an offensively challenged team to win some games, and was helped by some fantastic performances by a couple kids.

And, at least in my opinion, he's right about Smith, too. He's an offensive defenseman that to this point hasn't scored a whole lot, is bad defensively, and makes a lot of boneheaded mistakes. Whether he's not scoring because he's being used wrong or whatever doesn't really matter as much as the fact he doesn't add a whole lot of offense. I'd love for him to improve on both sides of the puck and he has the tools to do it, it just is mostly mental at this point. His mental game isn't there. As of now he's just not a very good defenseman.

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I don't think he doesn't like Babcock, he just thinks people are overstating his role in us making the playoffs last year. Babs adopted a defensive game because our offensive talent was gone. Good on him for seeing and realizing that, but that is exactly what any good coach would have done. It's not like he created a new style of play to perfectly form to our roster. He changed to a defensive game that allowed an offensively challenged team to win some games, and was helped by some fantastic performances by a couple kids.

And, at least in my opinion, he's right about Smith, too. He's an offensive defenseman that to this point hasn't scored a whole lot, is bad defensively, and makes a lot of boneheaded mistakes. Whether he's not scoring because he's being used wrong or whatever doesn't really matter as much as the fact he doesn't add a whole lot of offense. I'd love for him to improve on both sides of the puck and he has the tools to do it, it just is mostly mental at this point. His mental game isn't there. As of now he's just not a very good defenseman.

That is exactly how I feel about both points. Thank you for summarizing my thoughts (probably better than I could have at this point lol).

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Of course people mention this frequently, its fact. If a person is going to make a rational and logical arguement, I would expect they use facts in their arguments opposed to emotion. You constantly refer to the Wings as an old team, yet if you look at their lineup its filled with young players. Do you really think there is a better change of Z, D, Kronwall, regressing, then Gus, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Smith, DD getting better? Young players improve, the Smith of 2014 is not necessarily the Smith of 2015, I would hope with 1 more year of experience, and with Babcock leading the way, all these players will get better. Then throw in less injuries, I dont see how you can be so overly pessimistic regarding this team. Yes we probably know what we are going to get with Franzen, Cleary & Quincey, but that's 3 players.

Other teams had to deal with it too Boston lost Seidenberg, Blues half top line, Bolts Stamkos.. Also keep in mind that Kronwall hasn't missed significant time if he does, the whole defense is even more screwed. In terms of youth I prefer a wait and see approach because nobody knows if some will fall into a sophomore slump or not. I'm not pessimistic I'm realistic and looking at the opinions of some established experts, media outlets I'm not far off with my prediction.

I think it's healthier to wait and see what some potential future Wings can do instead of putting my hopes on them, before they've played a few games. Also people are quick to forget that other teams do have potential young players too. The difference being with my approach I will enjoy the season much more thanks to realistic expectations. I just don't see a point in expecting magic things from a retooling team, just look at the Leafs and their unreal Nylander hype kid will never live up to that. Heck if Mantha gets some games and scores around 10 goals that would be fantastic but I'm not expecting anything other than hard effort from some of the rookies.

There are threads on other message boards talking about Goose easily scoring 30 goals ! this season and stuff like that I just don't believe going into a season with such expectations - if a team isn't a contender - is the right approach to take but that's only mer if others think differently, that's fine too. Anyhow I agree with your point about Howard I think the monster and him will have a good year.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Other teams had to deal with it too Boston lost Seidenberg, Blues half top line, Bolts Stamkos.. Also keep in mind that Kronwall hasn't missed significant time if he does, the whole defense is even more screwed. In terms of youth I prefer a wait and see approach because nobody knows if some will fall into a sophomore slump or not. I'm not pessimistic I'm realistic and looking at the opinions of some established experts, media outlets I'm not far off with my prediction.

I think it's healthier to wait and see what some potential future Wings can do instead of putting my hopes on them, before they've played a few games. Also people are quick to forget that other teams do have potential young players too. The difference being with my approach I will enjoy the season much more thanks to realistic expectations. I just don't see a point in expecting magic things from a retooling team, just look at the Leafs and their unreal Nylander hype kid will never live up to that. Heck if Mantha gets some games and scores around 10 goals that would be fantastic but I'm not expecting anything other than hard effort from some of the rookies.

There are threads on other message boards talking about Goose easily scoring 30 goals ! this season and stuff like that I just don't believe going into a season with such expectations - if a team isn't a contender - is the right approach to take but that's only mer if others think differently, that's fine too. Anyhow I agree with your point about Howard I think the monster and him will have a good year.

Other teams do deal with injuries, but what we dealt with was just unreal. We didnt just lose 2 or 3 guys, we lost our very best players, and a ton of them with Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Weiss, Franzen, Erickson, Cleary, Helm, Howard, and the monster. (I may be forgetting some) all hitting the injury list.

I think any team with our bad luck would have struggled. I don't think Boston would have been too good if they had lost Rask, Lucic, Krejci, Krug, Marchant, Iginla, etc.

I will agree with you on taking a wait and see approach with guys who really haven't played in the NHL (Mantha, Sproul etc.). I do think some will break out and hit their potential, but i'm sure a few will fade away and not reach their potential.

As far guys like Nyquist and Tatar however, I think they have proven enough to earn our respect as future stars. I remember in the Anaheim/Wings series a few years ago telling my cousin that Nyquist was a star in the making, he just stuck out as being something special. For some reason he just couldn't beat the goalie, I cant remember how many times after making some amazing move his shot would either go wide, hit the post, or be stopped by some ridiculous save. He was no fluke last year (not saying you said he is), I think he is the future of this team.

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I don't get what some people expect from Smith but he's progressing quite well in my opinion. You have to understand that he is still very young for a defenseman in the NHL especially on the Red Wings. Most defensemen don't hit their prime until the age of 27-28 in this league, Smith is just 25 years old. It is a very difficult position to adapt to at the highest level.

Let's just compare him to a somewhat similar type player that is currently in the Red Wings organization. although Niklas Kronwall is more of a two-way defenseman he was always known to be a power-play quarterback that can put up points. He was also a late first round draft pick. Both players were 22 years old when they got their first taste with the Red Wings. Kronwall played 20 games and put up 5 (1-4) points, Smith played 14 games and put up 7 (1-6) points. The following year was a lockout year for Kronwall, Smith regressed a little that year, playing 34 games and putting up just 8 (0-8) points. The following year at the age of 24 Kronwall played in 27 games, putting up 9 (1-8) points, while at the same age (last season) Smith played in 71 games and put up 19 (5-14) points. At the age of 25 Kronwall played 68 games and put up 22 (1-21) points, and I expect Smith to put up better numbers than that this season. I don't think 30 points is at all out of reach for him this season, while also playing much better defense, as long as himself along with the rest of the team stay relatively healthy.

Also, speaking of Smith's defensive game, I think it has grown a ton in the past 6-8 months. I'll also compare him to another fellow Red Wing that everyone loved to hate just a few short seasons ago. Jonathan Ericsson was a turnover machine and was a disaster in his own end. Now look at him, he is probably our best shutdown defenseman. Why is so hard to believe that Smith will shore up his defensive game, even more than he already has over the past year? I think he will.

I doubt anyone ever would have thought Kronwall would have been our number one defenseman and that he would have been as solid at both ends of the ice as he is. Or even that Ericsson would be a capable number 2-3 shutdown defenseman. If you don't think the same thing can happen with Smith in his development, that happened to our current number one and number two, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the growth and potential in Smith I don't know what else to say, but it is definitely there and only time will tell. I would be surprised if he doesn't grow into a number 2-3 two-way defenseman in the next couple seasons. Like I said, only time will tell...

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I am VERY guilty pf being too critical when it comes to the Wings and Ken Holland especially...but that being said, after watching the last exhibition game, I am VERY encouraged by our kids. Not only the ones that are here now, but to name a few, and forgive me if I leave a name or two out, Jensen, Sproul, Oullett, Mrazek, Nestrasil, Marchenko all looked like they belong in the NHL. Sure they would make the rookie mistakes, but from what I seen of them against TO, they looked like they were ready to make the step.

With what I saw, I firmly believe that this team can easily survive without (and no, this is not a bash-fest) Franzen, Ericsson, Quincey, Kindl to name a few. Cleary actually looked like a good grinder out there (blah, I will wash my mouth out after saying that!) and would, along with Abby and Miller, make a pretty good 4th line shutdown group. I would perfectly happy with a opening night lineup that looked like this: (healthy of course)

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Mantha

Nestrasil - Weiss - Nyquist

Jurco - Sheahan - Tatar

Miller - Glenny - Abby

(Cleary, Callahan)

Kronwall - Dekeyser

Smith - Sproul

Oulette - Marchenko

Jensen ( I know you don't want a good prospect sitting, so put Lashoff here and let Jensen get even better in GR)

Mrazek

Howard

Gone via trade or waiver or GR are: Franzen, Helm, Andersson, Kindl, Quincey, Ericsson, Gustavsson and Ferraro.

Reality this is not going to happen, but I would be happy with that starting lineup come opening night (if they were all healthy enough to start that is.)

But, I do think the Wings are a bit underrated compared to other years. Hopefully that plays in their favor.

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Mantha is not going to be healthy by opening night and he will start his season in Grand Rapids when he does get healthy. Although Nestrasil has improved, probably more than any player in our system over the past year and a half, he still isn't NHL ready, and certainly not for second line duties. Jurco will more than likely start the season in Grand Rapids unless we have another couple guys go do with injury (which I know, you are expecting)...

It's also very unlikely any of our defense prospects make the team on opening night, let alone 3 or 4 of them, although I do expect one of them to make the team by November. More than likely Ouellet although he is probably ranked 3rd in my mind in regards to potential, he probably is the most NHL ready right now. There's also no chance Mrazek gets the nod as the starter ahead of Howard at this point, maybe in 2-3 years but not any time soon.

It's bad enough that you would hand all these kids jobs but you would be getting rid of some really good players in the process. I know you hate the guy but you can't actually believe that Nestrasil is a better option on the second line than Franzen... Although Helm has been extremely injury prone over the past couple seasons, I think he will have a relatively healthy season this year and we all know when he is healthy, he is a great bottom 6 forward. Ericsson is our best shutdown defenseman and you want to get rid of him and hand a job over to an unproven kid? Unbelievable...

Edited by krsmith17

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I don't get what some people expect from Smith but he's progressing quite well in my opinion. You have to understand that he is still very young for a defenseman in the NHL especially on the Red Wings. Most defensemen don't hit their prime until the age of 27-28 in this league, Smith is just 25 years old. It is a very difficult position to adapt to at the highest level.

Let's just compare him to a somewhat similar type player that is currently in the Red Wings organization. although Niklas Kronwall is more of a two-way defenseman he was always known to be a power-play quarterback that can put up points. He was also a late first round draft pick. Both players were 22 years old when they got their first taste with the Red Wings. Kronwall played 20 games and put up 5 (1-4) points, Smith played 14 games and put up 7 (1-6) points. The following year was a lockout year for Kronwall, Smith regressed a little that year, playing 34 games and putting up just 8 (0-8) points. The following year at the age of 24 Kronwall played in 27 games, putting up 9 (1-8) points, while at the same age (last season) Smith played in 71 games and put up 19 (5-14) points. At the age of 25 Kronwall played 68 games and put up 22 (1-21) points, and I expect Smith to put up better numbers than that this season. I don't think 30 points is at all out of reach for him this season, while also playing much better defense, as long as himself along with the rest of the team stay relatively healthy.

Also, speaking of Smith's defensive game, I think it has grown a ton in the past 6-8 months. I'll also compare him to another fellow Red Wing that everyone loved to hate just a few short seasons ago. Jonathan Ericsson was a turnover machine and was a disaster in his own end. Now look at him, he is probably our best shutdown defenseman. Why is so hard to believe that Smith will shore up his defensive game, even more than he already has over the past year? I think he will.

I doubt anyone ever would have thought Kronwall would have been our number one defenseman and that he would have been as solid at both ends of the ice as he is. Or even that Ericsson would be a capable number 2-3 shutdown defenseman. If you don't think the same thing can happen with Smith in his development, that happened to our current number one and number two, I don't know what to tell you. If you don't see the growth and potential in Smith I don't know what else to say, but it is definitely there and only time will tell. I would be surprised if he doesn't grow into a number 2-3 two-way defenseman in the next couple seasons. Like I said, only time will tell...

Why does it bother you so much to hear criticism of Brendan Smith? Nobody said he was bad. Nobody said he wouldn't get better. All your arguments do is reinforce the fact that he's the fourth best defenseman on a team with an average defense. Something I was happy to acknowledge two pages (and 24 hours) ago. But if I just say, Brendan Smith hasn't been great up to this point in his career (which is true, you've admitted as much above by saying "he's young...what do you expect?") then we've got to listen to you drone on and on and on making excuses as to why.

He's young? Check. He's got the talent to get better? Check. He's still learning the position? Check.

I agree with all of that. So the next time I say Brendan has only been average, can we forgo the excuse making and stick to the point at hand?

Edited by kipwinger

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Nobody has said Brendan Smith is bad? Really? You can't be serious... There are numerous people on here including yourself that constantly ***** and complain about him, or even go as far as to say he should be traded... Some fans clearly don't see the potential in this kid, and to me that is frustrating, especially after witnessing first hand, our two top defenseman going through the same type growing pains at the same age. Fans just need to learn to be patient with players (and the team), but they want immediate success / satisfaction.

Also, you don't have to "listen to me drone" about anything. I'm just stating my point, and that is that Smith is a really good defenseman in the making and he doesn't deserve half the s*** he gets on here from some fans. I find once a player rubs someone on here the wrong way, they will always be that player, no matter how much better they get over time. I also think that some of the users on here feed off of each others negative energy, it becomes the thing to do, ***** about specific players. eg. "Kylef***ingQuincey"...

Anyway, you have your opinion on Smith and I have mine, so let's just leave it at that...

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It's a big year for Smith - it being a contract year is obvious, but moving forward it's huge for him. I think part of Babs' comments about finding a top 4 guy when discussing the defensive prospects was definitely directed at Smith. Thing is, I hope he's given a fair shake this year. Give the guy special teams minutes and let him play. You're not going to find a future top 4 in Kindl or Quincey - those two are fringe #4-5 defenders at this point, IMO.

I don't care about last year or the year before, Smith can prove what he's going to be this season. Pairing wise, I wish they'd slot him with DD and let Kindl-Quincey run around together. Much better indicator of what Smith is going to mean to the team going forward.

Edited by Jesusberg

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Nobody has said Brendan Smith is bad? Really? You can't be serious... There are numerous people on here including yourself that constantly ***** and complain about him, or even go as far as to say he should be traded... Some fans clearly don't see the potential in this kid, and to me that is frustrating, especially after witnessing first hand, our two top defenseman going through the same type growing pains at the same age. Fans just need to learn to be patient with players (and the team), but they want immediate success / satisfaction.

Also, you don't have to "listen to me drone" about anything. I'm just stating my point, and that is that Smith is a really good defenseman in the making and he doesn't deserve half the s*** he gets on here from some fans. I find once a player rubs someone on here the wrong way, they will always be that player, no matter how much better they get over time. I also think that some of the users on here feed off of each others negative energy, it becomes the thing to do, ***** about specific players. eg. "Kylef***ingQuincey"...

Anyway, you have your opinion on Smith and I have mine, so let's just leave it at that...

I ***** about Smith when he f***s up, which he's done (a lot) in his short career. Just like I do with every other player. When he screws up and turns the puck over to I have to temper my frustration because one day he might be better?

Also teams trade guys with potential ALL THE TIME. If they were destined to be terrible nobody would want to trade for them. I've advocated trading Nyquist, doesn't mean he's bad. Just the opposite.

And nothing that you just said takes away from that fact that he's been pedestrian so far in his career...which is all I've ever said. Dig through any old discussion of Brendan Smith and you see me saying, over and over, that he'll get better and that he has potential. That's obvious. But saying that he's (paraphrasing) "as good offensively as Kronwall back when Kronwall wasn't great offensively, or as good defensively as Ericsson back when Ericsson wasn't great defensively" all adds up to him being average now. Which I said...yesterday.

So here, I'll throw you a bone. One day Brendan Smith could be as good as Kronwall. He's got the tools. So far he's been average...and sometime disappointing. Can you live with that characterization, or do I need to follow up any criticism of Smith with an immediate disclaimer? "Smith had a terrible turnover last night (but don't let that distract anyone from that fact that his size and skating could surely put him solidly on the top pair should his developmental trajectory look something like Kronwall's did).

Seems a little excessive.

Edited by kipwinger

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No Kip, all I'm saying is that people, including yourself need to relax with some of the negativity on here all the time. Does it really need to be brought up every time he or any other player on the team makes a mistake? It sure as hell isn't brought up every time he makes a big play, not by you or the other haters on here anyway. The point is, a lot of people are very quick to point out his shortcomings but rarely ever give the kid praise when he's playing well. Anyway, like I keep saying, let's agree to disagree on where Smith is at or where he will end up because we clearly don't see eye to eye on this. Just drop it and I won't bring it up the next time you decide to ***** about him...

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No Kip, all I'm saying is that people, including yourself need to relax with some of the negativity on here all the time. Does it really need to be brought up every time he or any other player on the team makes a mistake? It sure as hell isn't brought up every time he makes a big play, not by you or the other haters on here anyway. The point is, a lot of people are very quick to point out his shortcomings but rarely ever give the kid praise when he's playing well. Anyway, like I keep saying, let's agree to disagree on where Smith is at or where he will end up because we clearly don't see eye to eye on this. Just drop it and I won't bring it up the next time you decide to ***** about him...

Of course it is. Go back to the game thread from two nights ago and look at page after page about how well Smith played. I even said he played well. Where are you getting this? You act like there's some bias against the guy. Nobody is treating him like Cleary or Quincey, who (by the way) I'd agree people need to chill out on.

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Well, all I am saying is what I seen from the kids the other night just re-enforces my stand on we would not miss Franzen, Helm, Andersson, Q or K or E one bit if they were not on this team. And my point was with that roster if you read the entire thing, IF ALL WERE HEALTHY, I would very happy with a roster that looked like that come opening night.

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