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TSN Radio - McKenzie: Enforcers in the NHL

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TSN Radio interview regarding enforcer effectiveness in 2014. Discussion started with (of course) Crosby's treatment last season against the BJs.

They also talk a little about Babs' contract talks.

http://www.tsn.ca/radio/mckenzie-seeing-the-abuse-crosby-took-in-the-playoffs-teams-may-need-enforcers-1.94641

Edited by Wings_Dynasty

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Surprise, surprise enforcers help keeping the other team honest. But of course the media is only talking about it if it happens to Crosby, the Z incident wasn't even a news article..With a guy like McGrattan Weber would maybe still have smashed him against the glass, but then McGrattan would have smashed Web *through* the glass.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Surprise, surprise enforcers help keeping the other team honest. But of course the media is only talking about it if it happens to Crosby, the Z incident wasn't even a news article..With a guy like McGrattan Weber would maybe still have smashed him against the glass, but then McGrattan would have smashed Web *through* the glass.

Which in the end, doesn't help your star player whatsoever. If we are talking about whether or not a goon results in vengeance, nobody will argue that. If we are asking if having a goon prevents injuries, I personally think very little.

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Which in the end, doesn't help your star player whatsoever. If we are talking about whether or not a goon results in vengeance, nobody will argue that. If we are asking if having a goon prevents injuries, I personally think very little.

In today's game, I would agree entirely - but the expectation now is that all fighting is goon-v-goon.

Historically, it was more effective. Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman and other top scorers were 'protected' by 'the code' and a healthy enforcer. Of course, the goon couldn't stop bad knees, a bad back, or accidents, but 'borderline hits' and 'suspendable hits' weren't the media topic they are today.

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Which in the end, doesn't help your star player whatsoever. If we are talking about whether or not a goon results in vengeance, nobody will argue that. If we are asking if having a goon prevents injuries, I personally think very little.

Well the other "star player" is getting the same threatment so it's more like wanna act like an idiot ? Fine we'll send out our tough guy and see how you like our response. Just look back at that famous Isles - Pens brawl, Pittsburgh made jokes about the Isles being too soft and tried to rough them up morre than once but after the Isles returned the favour it didn't happen again.

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Well the other "star player" is getting the same threatment so it's more like wanna act like an idiot ? Fine we'll send out our tough guy and see how you like our response. Just look back at that famous Isles - Pens brawl, Pittsburgh made jokes about the Isles being too soft and tried to rough them up morre than once but after the Isles returned the favour it didn't happen again.

I'm not against playing tough, I would love to have a Shanahan on our team. Having a guy who is a good player, tough and willing to drop the gloves can never hurt. My issue is wasting a roster spot on a guy like McGrattan.

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Surprise, surprise enforcers help keeping the other team honest. But of course the media is only talking about it if it happens to Crosby, the Z incident wasn't even a news article..With a guy like McGrattan Weber would maybe still have smashed him against the glass, but then McGrattan would have smashed Web *through* the glass.

or punched in the back of the head for targeting the head of a star player. think about that one dirty players.

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I was on bleacher report and seen this article, its actually a pretty good read for a hockey article on bleacher report.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2204990-concussion-prone-ryane-clowe-knows-he-should-give-up-fighting-but-he-cant

Really good article so much respect for Close, guy is a warrior and a decent player. The Devils should sign someone else to do his job, 4 concussions in 15 months is way too much.

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Really good article so much respect for Close, guy is a warrior and a decent player. The Devils should sign someone else to do his job, 4 concussions in 15 months is way too much.

I loved the line where he was challenged by carkner You stick up for your teammates. Ive been on his side many times, and I didnt want to turn him down. You kind of respect him sticking up for his teammates."

It always astounds me how well mannered and respectful these guys are, they know they're a dying breed and generally speaking they're the most honorable dudes on the ice.

Things like that are why I fell in love with the game, I love football, but hockey always seemed to show the best of respect in competition.

And they need to sign someone who can take on the fighting for him.

Its only a matter of time before these guys start showing signs of cte, and all the other health problems that come along with multiple concussions.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter

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I loved the line where he was challenged by carkner You stick up for your teammates. Ive been on his side many times, and I didnt want to turn him down. You kind of respect him sticking up for his teammates."

It always astounds me how well mannered and respectful these guys are, they know they're a dying breed and generally speaking they're the most honorable dudes on the ice.

Things like that are why I fell in love with the game, I love football, but hockey always seemed to show the best of respect in competition.

And they need to sign someone who can take on the fighting for him.

Its only a matter of time before these guys start showing signs of cte, and all the other health problems that come along with multiple concussions.

Fully agreed and it really pisses me off, how such great, honorable and respectful guys aren't getting the support they deserve from everybody. These guys are fully aware of the dangers, consequens and yet they are sticking up for something honorable and their teammates no matter at what cost. Another reason why I can't stand the anti-fighting crowd those guys deserve nothing but the utmost respect.

Fully agreed the Devils should sign Big Mac Steve MacIntyre or Gillies if he doesn't make the Flames roster and let Clowe focus on playing on the edge without risking further damages.

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Reminds me of the Grind line, they were efficient in enforcing pretty much every thing, so gritty and so protective (especially mc carty). Otoh back then we had star players that could handle themselves (shanny, Hull,...).

Yes we need to find this kind of spirit back, because even our enforcers' line is not that intimidating as it used to be.

Edited by Yzerman19

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I loved the grind line because they were so amazingly balanced for abottom 6 line.

Noones going to mistake any of them for Gretzky.

But McCarty was tough as hell, and had decent hands.

Draper was fast as sh*t and was amazing on the draw, and malt by was a big body who could chip in goals and was gritty.

All were Amazing forecheckers.

I'm not anti fighting, by any means.

I just think its being fazed out, for good reason, honestly, but when were in those games where everything's chippy and getting dirty it was nice to have those guys who would stop it.

I was a fan of the leg wand move just for that reason, he wasn't dirty or the best fighter, but when you werethrowing cheap shots he didn't take it.

There most likely will never be another Brendan shanahan, and Brett hull was way too damn strong for his stature, and there's no way to find that skill with that grit, even people comparable today would cost wayyyy to much.

Just look at the deal Callahan signed, he's nowhere near as skilled as shanny, has nowhere near the shot of hull, and would get destroyed by either one of those guys in a fight, but he got paid.

I like old school hockey, but I love the skilled game.

The sad truth is when you find fighter types they don't last long in the league because of injuries and the new wave of these guys don't seem to have the same code the dying breed lived by.

That's why I'm okay with us not bringing in a goon.

There's almost no respect anymore, I get helping your team win by anymeans necessary, but after the old bouts you'd always see a guy nod his head or pat the other guy on the pads for keeping it clean.

Its gotten too dilluted for my taste, and id love for that to change, but sadly I don't see that happening.

But to the guys who are out to stand up for their teammates, and aren't just goons bringing nothing else to the table, will always have my respect.

Its great to see people passionate about the game, and I think the lucic types are the closest thing were going to see in the future.

Dirty, cheap shots, who you'd love to have on your team, butcouldnt respect even if they were.

Tanner glass type "agitators."

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And McCarty was supposed to protect people, but near the end of the line there, the people he was there to protect had enough respect around the league he didn't have to do much.

Aside from the draper lemieux incident, but Claude was one of those dirty agitators, skilled, but a cheap shot artist.

I even miss brad may.

He went out there to hit, and when people charged him or people he dropped the gloves.

But even he had friends and other fighters who he'd go out there with the intention to fight certain people, the last few honorable dudes who had the job to bring energy, and he did it.

Its the oddest form of camaraderie and I loved it.

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Fully agreed and it really pisses me off, how such great, honorable and respectful guys aren't getting the support they deserve from everybody. These guys are fully aware of the dangers, consequens and yet they are sticking up for something honorable and their teammates no matter at what cost. Another reason why I can't stand the anti-fighting crowd those guys deserve nothing but the utmost respect.

Wouldn't you agree, that if the Wings did have a guy willing to drop the gloves, it would benefit the team more if the guy served a purpose outside of just fighting? I would much rather have a Shanahan, McCarty, Hartnell etc. then a Brian McGratton who is a liability every time he steps on the ice?

Secondly, guys who fight day in day out, are putting themselves at huge risk for really no reason. Its one thing if someone cheapshots a teammate, and you stick up for him, because at the end of the day, I can see the argument that you are trying to ultimately do good and protect someone (whether that works or not is a different argument). However, when I see guys dropping the gloves 2 seconds into a game just for the sake of fighting, to me its senseless and putting these guys at a high risk for concussions, and long term health problems, and in the most extreme circumstances possibly death due to depression. I cant imagine the amount of undiagnosed concussions guys that fight every night, sometimes multiple times a night get.

In my case (I cant speak for everyone), a lack of respect couldn't be farther from the reason for the points I make.

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It's pretty surprising to see so many heavyweight scrapper-types being demoted:

- Colton Orr and Frazer McLaren both demoted by the Leafs to start the year.

-Jay Rosehill was sent down to the AHL by the Flyers.

-Krys Barch and Matt Kassian were both released from their tryouts with the Coyotes.

-Paul Bissonnette was released from his tryout with St. Louis (Granted, he hardly fought last year, but a heavyweight, nonetheless)

-Sheldon Brookbank was released from his tryout with Calgary.

-Kevin Westgarth was released from his tryout with Edmonton.

We can argue all day about whether this is good or bad for the game, but it is undeniable that the league is moving in a direction that isn't favorable to the "goon" types. That being said, they are still around, just in smaller numbers. The "hybrid" enforcer seems to be becoming the norm pretty quickly. Guys that can play a regular shift and provide the physical edge and willingness to fight are more preferable than a one-dimensional goon. Guys like Derek Dorsett, Chris Neil, Zac Rinaldo, Matt Martin, Brandon Prust, and Tanner Glass.

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Why should I ? Playing a fourth line ! more has nothing to do with or without enforcer. If Carlyle decides 5 ~ 8 minutes are enough for fourth line players, well then they won't be playing more. Playing guys like Miller, Ashton or Lashoff on the fourth line doesn't do much either, so personally I'd rather have some protection and intimidation factor there if things go out of hand.

Also Orr, McLaren will be back against the Bruins. While I'm sure Phaneuf, Clarkson and maybe Ashton will drop the gloves if needed, the outcome won't be pretty against guys like Prust, Rinaldo or Neil. Especially Rinaldo is a lose canon, so I expect the Leafs to get bullied. Boston has Lucic, McQuaid and Chara but not only did they lose toughness from Thornton they've also lost Boychuk (will drop the gloves too) so using them as an example may not be the best idea, because Lucic won't back down from anyone and he can really fight.

If I where a GM I wouldn't want my best 7 mill a year defenseman having to fight the other teams rats, agitators but I guess Shanahan thinks differently. Wheter that's good or bad is up to each individuals own opnion but I will say this, the first time someone takes serious advantage of not having enforcers in the lineup they'll be back.

btw. the Bruins are going to carry an enforcer Robins http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=10502 220lbs, 6'1 and 221 PIMS in 68 games << beast ... Bruins fans can be thankful for Cam Neilly looks like he set Chiarelli straight on that one.

Edited by frankgrimes

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I would be absolutely shocked if fighting is even still in the game in 10 years. With everything we are learning about concussions (long term effects) and all the player lawsuits around, I think its only a matter of time before fighting isn't just a penalty, but something that leads to a major suspension like in most sports. I also think that head shots/cheap shots are going to have harsher consequences, as this would be my biggest worry if they abolished fighting.

I just cant see the NHL not going down this road. This has nothing to do with personal opinion of fighting, just the way I see things going.

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I would be absolutely shocked if fighting is even still in the game in 10 years. With everything we are learning about concussions (long term effects) and all the player lawsuits around, I think its only a matter of time before fighting isn't just a penalty, but something that leads to a major suspension like in most sports. I also think that head shots/cheap shots are going to have harsher consequences, as this would be my biggest worry if they abolished fighting.

I just cant see the NHL not going down this road. This has nothing to do with personal opinion of fighting, just the way I see things going.

Like it or not, that's exactly where things are going.

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I would be absolutely shocked if fighting is even still in the game in 10 years. With everything we are learning about concussions (long term effects) and all the player lawsuits around, I think its only a matter of time before fighting isn't just a penalty, but something that leads to a major suspension like in most sports. I also think that head shots/cheap shots are going to have harsher consequences, as this would be my biggest worry if they abolished fighting.

I just cant see the NHL not going down this road. This has nothing to do with personal opinion of fighting, just the way I see things going.

I can also see the NHL doing more to discourage "big hits" that cause many of the concussions in the NHL.

Regarding fighting, would anyone be upset if there were more power forwards similar to Lucic, Simmonds, Lindros, etc. in the league? It seems the overall level of toughness/fighting has gone down in the NHL, and enforcers are relied on to provide "toughness" that should be spread throughout a team.

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I can also see the NHL doing more to discourage "big hits" that cause many of the concussions in the NHL.

Regarding fighting, would anyone be upset if there were more power forwards similar to Lucic, Simmonds, Lindros, etc. in the league? It seems the overall level of toughness/fighting has gone down in the NHL, and enforcers are relied on to provide "toughness" that should be spread throughout a team.

Yes I would, because I think it sucks seeing great locker-room guys, fan-favorites who are having the toughest job in the NHL being faced out. How about supporting them and showing appreciation instead of talking how useless they are ? Depression has a lot to do with perception. Yes I know they are millionaires too, but finding guys who are willing to sacrifice their health for peanuts (compared to other NHL players) and be all around good soldiers is something I can appreciate and support.

The problem is once you start with "safety first" - which is good don't get me wrong - where does it end ?We all know it it would be the full cage and almost all physicality, hitting gone that's not something I'M looking forward too.

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Yes I would, because I think it sucks seeing great locker-room guys, fan-favorites who are having the toughest job in the NHL being faced out. How about supporting them and showing appreciation instead of talking how useless they are ? Depression has a lot to do with perception. Yes I know they are millionaires too, but finding guys who are willing to sacrifice their health for peanuts (compared to other NHL players) and be all around good soldiers is something I can appreciate and support.

The problem is once you start with "safety first" - which is good don't get me wrong - where does it end ?We all know it it would be the full cage and almost all physicality, hitting gone that's not something I'M looking forward too.

Clinical depression caused by concussions has nothing to do with one's perception. Its not as if someone with clinical depression can simply say "I'm not going to be depressed anymore, I'm going to change my outlook." I wish it were that simple. Its an extremely tough battle for the individual and unfortunately can end extremely bad.

I cant speak for others, but again, my opinions about guys that just fight day in and day out has nothing to do with a lack of respect, or trying to put them down, its not wanting to see guys suffer the rest of their lives for no reason. I'm not anti fighting, I'm against constant senseless fighting.

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