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23 man roster set... say hi to your 2014/15 Wings

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I can't remember who it was that was blaming Babcock for Nyquist not being on the team, but this is about as clear as it gets regarding roster decisions between Holland and Babcock.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/10/pavel_datsyuk_officially_out_f.html#incart_river

With his comments of late it sounds as though Babs is becoming more and more frustrated with Holland.

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1. Zetterberg's on pace to have a good season every year (almost). Who cares? Last year Alexander Steen was on pace to outscore Ovechkin for about 20 games. On pace really doesn't mean s***.

2. Prefer whatever you want. I'd prefer to actually have a top line winger (and not a third line center) on the top line. Also, as I've said a couple times already: Sure putting Helm on the first line "is worth a try". But this is a professional hockey team, running a business. If they don't have a better strategy for success than "it's worth a try", we're in trouble.

3. If Stafford is a rental he can't block anybody long term. Short term he wouldn't block anybody on the current roster because you'd have to trade to get him. One in, one out. Also, you could just waive any of Andersson, Glendening, or Cleary as well. Nothing about acquiring one guy would block those two. However, my point was mostly that he's been available for as long as we've been trying this stupid "bottom six grinder" to top line winger experiment.

4. Lets not go anointing Nestrasil some kind of up and comer just yet. He's (so far) yet to show he can even play consistently in the AHL, let alone the NHL . He had a good camp which is good. But if you're reluctant to take on a proven NHL player like Stafford because you aren't sure how that affects a guy like Nestrasil, then you've got some pretty funny priorities.

Look, all I'm saying is that if you need a top line winger...go get a top line winger (or promote one). Abby and Helm are bottom six players. No amount of line adjusting changes their skill set. If you want a top line winger who's biggish, physically tough, and can score ok...go get a guy like Stafford. If you want a guy who's fast, defensively responsible, and can score a little...go get Vrbata.

If you want bottom six grinders who are defensively responsible and chip in middling offense...go get Abby or Helm.

The organization is trying to turn them into something they aren't, and it's detrimental to the team.

1. You claimed that Z's production "fell into the floor" with Abby - I showed that he was having one of his best years. Who cares you ask? yes who cares about facts? you take issue with "on pace.", but that's not really what we were talking about - it's the time he played with Abby his production didn't fall into the floor. To be clear, I don't think Abby should by in the top 6, but your claim was off.

2. I also would prefer "to actually have a top line winger" ,but Mantha's injured, Alfie's uncertian. I think Helm's a good option with what we've got. Certainly better than Abby. Not sure why you took exception with my use of the word prefer, haha. Every opinion or claim is a preference. Also, your "this is a business we shouldn't just 'give things a try'" seems weird to me. Coaches "give things a try" all the time - every time they switch lines... Bowman gave Federov a try on defense. Chara was given a try in front of the net on the PP. We are currently trying out the 1-3-1 formation. Maybe I should have used more serious wording.

3. I meant if we got Stafford as a UFA next year he would be a road block and I meant it more for Mantha - I listed Nestrasil because he would probably be pushed off the team, but I agree with you that Nestrasil shouldn't really be a consideration. If he were here for just this year he would only really be a road block to Alfie's return which I think most would be fine with. Could be a good move if the price wasn't too much.

Anyway, I don't think we really disagree about much here.

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To be fair, I wouldn't want to put a lipstick wearing pig on their line, either. Like I said in my previous post, I hate Abdelkader there. What I'm pointing out is that people going on about him being in the top 6 - the idea of the top 6 is being weeded out all over. Given the current roster, I'd much rather see something along the lines of:

Z-Datsyuk-Jurco

Mule-Weiss-Nyquist

Tatar-Sheahan-Abdelkader

Miller-Helm-Glendening

I think that works the same way - using Jurco as a puck-retrieval/net presence guy. You're still rolling three scoring lines, and keeping pairings that have been proven to work in the past. Problem is, Babcock won't trust Jurco in that situation, and Holland doesn't want to foot the bill next season after his numbers (in theory) blow up.

For the record, I think the team falling out of contender status has more to do with hanging onto assets that aren't of value anymore, and not filling in voids on the blueline. I believe that misusing Abdelkader is an issue, but hardly the most pressing one.

I don't think the idea of a 'top-6' is being 'weeded' out of the NHL at all. The roles of the bottom six are evolving with the game, but having a solid top 6 is as important now as it ever was. The shift is towards puck possession and deeper teams see an opportunity to field a third scoring line. Right now, teams fall into three categories - those that can skate a third scoring line, those that think they can, & those that can't. Chicago is a go. Pittsburgh tries, but struggles. St. Louis doesn't even really try.

In the world of third scoring lines, Detroit should be great - Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco. [Not saying some of these guys won't develop into top 6 talent, but right now - they would easily be an above average third line] That would/could give them a fourth (shutdown) line of Glendening-Helm-Abdelkader which is also solid by NHL standards (could be a little bigger, but 'eh not-so-bad). The problem is that they don't have the personnel in the top 6 to allow for it...

If we ignore injuries for a minute, Zetterberg and Datsyuk are clear first liners. There's no power forward for them to skate with, though. Mantha will fill that role eventually, but he's not ready even if he wasn't injured and the packed roster also makes it difficult for him to slide in this season. It would be nice to give him a little time to develop at the NHL level, too, before burdening him with the expectations of the franchise, but how long with Z and Dats really be there? The second line is a mess, if I'm being honest. Weiss should be a decent #2 pivot, when he's healthy. Detroit took a shot signing him and to-date the experiment has failed. Franzen has had flashes but he can also be lazy for long periods. Nyquist has the upside on this line, but he's also set up to drop off a bit this year. I think it's tough to expect him to keep a 20% shooting pace. [Note: I'm not saying Nyquist will 'fail', just not shoot 20%. I think he's more than capable of second line points - 40-60.]

Now if we apply the current state (based on dailyfaceoff lines)... We're likely scratching Weiss and Datsyuk starts off injured meaning 2 guys are 'out-of-position' playing up on the first line with Z (Abdelkader and Franzen) and our third line is rounding out our top 6 which while above average for a third scoring line will likely be out-matched as a second line.

This is why I've become disenchanted with Kenny Holland. He relies on the fact that Babs can (and will) get a little extra and doesn't address holes until it's too late. We need a power forward up front. Either clear the way for Mantha or go get us one.

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I can understand Kindl, but Helm, and Weiss?

With Helm - I felt he was just starting to show us what he was capable of when the injury bug hit him, and keeps hitting him over, and over.

Weiss I think needs a few dozen games in good health before I'd toss him onto the scrap heap.

I support Weiss and want to see him get his career back on track but when looking to make a trade for an upgrade somewhere in the lineup I'd move them just because how many centers we have

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1. You claimed that Z's production "fell into the floor" with Abby - I showed that he was having one of his best years. Who cares you ask? yes who cares about facts? you take issue with "on pace.", but that's not really what we were talking about - it's the time he played with Abby his production didn't fall into the floor. To be clear, I don't think Abby should by in the top 6, but your claim was off.

2. I also would prefer "to actually have a top line winger" ,but Mantha's injured, Alfie's uncertian. I think Helm's a good option with what we've got. Certainly better than Abby. Not sure why you took exception with my use of the word prefer, haha. Every opinion or claim is a preference. Also, your "this is a business we shouldn't just 'give things a try'" seems weird to me. Coaches "give things a try" all the time - every time they switch lines... Bowman gave Federov a try on defense. Chara was given a try in front of the net on the PP. We are currently trying out the 1-3-1 formation. Maybe I should have used more serious wording.

3. I meant if we got Stafford as a UFA next year he would be a road block and I meant it more for Mantha - I listed Nestrasil because he would probably be pushed off the team, but I agree with you that Nestrasil shouldn't really be a consideration. If he were here for just this year he would only really be a road block to Alfie's return which I think most would be fine with. Could be a good move if the price wasn't too much.

Anyway, I don't think we really disagree about much here.

I agree. We're in the same ballpark.

I didn't take exception to your use of "preference". I bolded it so that you'd know what I was responding to in my second comment. No problem with you preferring things.

Zetterberg's production last season wasn't going to last, regardless of his pace. But you're right, it's probably a stretch for me to say that his production falls through the floor with Abby. Having said that, it's not unreasonable to think that he (and Datsyuk) would see an increase in production should they play alongside a winger who can pass and shoot better than Helm, Abby (or Bert before them).

Again, I don't know that Stafford is the answer and don't want to make it about him in particular. I was just pointing out that if you want an "Abby with hands" go get one. They exist, and are available.

Finally, I don't have a problem with teams trying things. I have a problem with not having any other options, and "trying" weird s*** becomes your only hope. Bowman "tried Fedorov on defense" when he had one of the greatest teams ever assembled. Julien "tried" Chara in front of the net while coaching one of the best teams in the league and having a ready replacement on the powerplay point in Torey Krug. We're "trying" Helm on the first line wing because we've got too many centers and not enough wingers, and our GM isn't willing to part ways with one to get the other. Think about it, each year Z and D start out together and the last four guys to play on the other wing were Cleary, Bert, Abby, and now Helm. We've needed a real winger for years.

Babs' isn't doing it because he's got too many options, he's doing it because he doesn't have enough.

Edited by kipwinger

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So, Weiss is just not playing but Glendening, Andersson and Nestrasil all are? Weiss may be a complete bust yet, but I still think he has more to offer than any of those three. Give him a chance at least.

I'd be interested to see what Weiss can provide when healthy. On the other hand I've seen what Andersson can provide when he's healthy and I'm not all that excited.

Edited by wings87

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Down the stretch the older guys wont produce and will show wear and tear, the kids will save the team again towards the middle, end of year and everyone will be happy. Thats ken hollands plan it seems. If these kids dont have a good start to the ahl season, then, maybe it was a good decision to send em down and keep em there.

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With his comments of late it sounds as though Babs is becoming more and more frustrated with Holland.

I definitely think Babcock is frustrated. Does he get along with Holland? Sure. I think they respect each other. I don't think it's a huge, tremendously ugly situation. But I don't think things are as rosy as Babcock suggests they are at times. I think he's a professional talking to the media and trying not to go too hard on his boss, but clearly, enough has slipped out over the years to suggest that they have a fair amount of disagreements, and it does seem as if more is coming to light lately.

That said, it might only be because the media is focusing in on the issue more after so many years of Holland dropping the ball in the off-season. Perhaps their prodding has just grown more intense and focused. That doesn't mean Babcock isn't just as frustrated as many others, and on some level, I'm sure he is. Any way you shake it, there's no way he can be happy about how little his team has improved from free agency or trades the last few years.

How frustrated he is at Holland specifically though in reality is something only Babcock truly knows. If he does in fact leave after this year, I think we'll know where he stands. If he stays, then it's likely in the gray area that he occasionally opens up about to the press.

Another thing I've been thinking about lately is how many strong hockey minds we have lost over the last few seasons. It's easy to pin our struggles with acquiring players on Holland, but there is a management team in place. You could say that Nill or Yzerman or Bowman were the brains, but in reality, those were all smart hockey people that were in the fold and helping out on a team. Isolate any of them on this team in Holland's role and they might struggle too. But any way you shake it, at this point, the management team has taken a huge blow in losing those guys, and perhaps it proves not so much that Holland was overrated at one point so much as the entire management team was generally underrated.

I don't want to go out of the way to defend the guy, because I'd still fire him in a heartbeat if it was up to me just to get some fresh blood in to shake things up, for better or for worse. Holland's had enough chances the last 4-5 years to prove he can run the team effectively and I feel like he's failed and continues to fail in too many areas to warrant continuing on with him. But perhaps it's not as simple as him just losing his touch so much as him losing too many top notch minds and not being able to pull the load on his own, especially after so many years of having a wealth of talented people to help out and names like Yzerman and Bowman in the fold, names that no doubt resonate on an emotional level with players more than Holland might, and that's no small thing.

Factor all of this in with Holland having to learn to play within the confines of the cap and it might be fair to say that he was destined to fail. It's a tall order to keep the plates spinning in a transition era when you have to worry about the cap and you don't have as many bright minds to utilize on your management team. I'm not trying to make excuses so much as say, maybe we shouldn't be surprised that he's floundered on his own in a new world.

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So, Weiss is just not playing but Glendening, Andersson and Nestrasil all are? Weiss may be a complete bust yet, but I still think he has more to offer than any of those three. Give him a chance at least.

Something hairy must have gone down with Weiss. Whether he just pissed management and Babcock off last year with the way he handled his injury, or whether his work ethic is lacking, it's too big of a statement for him to be a healthy scratch in the opening game of the season for there not to be some behind-the-scenes ugliness. Maybe he just has a bad attitude. It's pretty damn crazy when you really think about it. You don't throw $4-5 million at a guy to be a healthy scratch at the start of the season.

I know it's way too early to be going there, but if this proves to be another Sammy-like bust on the inside, they really need to get him playing on the top line with Dats and Z and make him look as good as possible so they can work with him to get his ass traded. That is just way too much money to be swallowing for a guy you don't want to dress.

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Something hairy must have gone down with Weiss. Whether he just pissed management and Babcock off last year with the way he handled his injury, or whether his work ethic is lacking, it's too big of a statement for him to be a healthy scratch in the opening game of the season for there not to be some behind-the-scenes ugliness. Maybe he just has a bad attitude. It's pretty damn crazy when you really think about it. You don't throw $4-5 million at a guy to be a healthy scratch at the start of the season.

I know it's way too early to be going there, but if this proves to be another Sammy-like bust on the inside, they really need to get him playing on the top line with Dats and Z and make him look as good as possible so they can work with him to get his ass traded. That is just way too much money to be swallowing for a guy you don't want to dress.

I doubt Weiss has a bad attitude. He was Florida's heart and soul guy. Something weird is going on.

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http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2014/10/red_wings_assign_defenseman_xa.html

Here is the Red Wings' 23-man roster:

Forwards: Justin Abdelkader, Joakim Andersson, Daniel Cleary, Johan Franzen, Luke Glendening, Darren Helm, Tomas Jurco, Drew Miller, Andrej Nestrasil, Gustav Nyquist, Riley Sheahan, Tomas Tatar, Stephen Weiss, Henrik Zetterberg.

Defensemen: Danny DeKeyser, Jonathan Ericsson, Jakub Kindl, Niklas Kronwall, Brian Lashoff, Kyle Quincey, Brendan Smith.

Goaltenders: Jonas Gustavsson, Jimmy Howard.

Injured reserve: Pavel Datsyuk (short-term).

"The best players will play..." - Mike Babcock

Hoping that their's not a lot of injuries this season.

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I doubt Weiss has a bad attitude. He was Florida's heart and soul guy. Something weird is going on.

Same, but who knows? Different team, different circumstances, and it's not like we don't have a history of giving the cold shoulder to some of the guys we sign who we're not happy with. It's not a regular thing, but it also wouldn't be the first time. Not to say it isn't warranted on some level if the player doesn't come close to holding up their side of the deal. It's by far the most curious situation heading out of camp. I think the Kindl/Ouellet stuff will only go on for a very short while before Kindl's either traded or waived, so I'm not too concerned with that drama. Weiss is just plain weird though. Something doesn't add up.

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My

Same, but who knows? Different team, different circumstances, and it's not like we don't have a history of giving the cold shoulder to some of the guys we sign who we're not happy with. It's not a regular thing, but it also wouldn't be the first time. Not to say it isn't warranted on some level if the player doesn't come close to holding up their side of the deal. It's by far the most curious situation heading out of camp. I think the Kindl/Ouellet stuff will only go on for a very short while before Kindl's either traded or waived, so I'm not too concerned with that drama. Weiss is just plain weird though. Something doesn't add up.

My guess is just rust. He has missed pretty much 2 years, you can practice all you want, but until you play in a game it can be tough to get into "hockey shape".

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My guess is simple : Weiss doesn't provide the type of play Babcock expects. Even after the signing Babcock talked about different styles in Florida and Detroit. Maybe Holland should have listened to Babcock before signing the guy?

That's been a problem since some time now, the Wings overpay for some players but lowball talent and still try to underpay top ufas, that doesn't work. If Weiss doesn't fit, show case him increase his value and look what you can get back fire him. It would be the best option for both sides.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Every team has a coach and a GM who sometimes do not agree. I think with Ouellet, Babcock is a huge fan but they are trying to showcase these other guys too - so hopefully someone will bite. This roster is going to look very different come Game #50, so let's not get ahead of ourselves. Injuries are going to happen and some of these guys are gonna lose jobs at some point. There's too many prospects ready to not see them all year.

I am getting tired of the media around here sounding like Toronto and their fanbase/media who display a love hate or "what-are-we-doing-to-win" attitude all the damn time. It's like panic. Sleep. Panic again. Win. Lose. Complain. SMH.

Yeah, I hope Babcock stays, and especially does not leave to Toronto [which he probably won't with or without Shanahan there because he knows that team is worst run, worst depth and worst future of almost any other team] but if he does - he does. That's June 2015. We have a season to play and 18th spot in the standings to secure apparently [not making the playoffs? YEHHHHH right].

The future is bright. Holland frustrates us time and again. But I like the lineup this year [ok maybe not as much those named Weiss/Cleary/Kindl] and I like our chances if healthy. Can we really lose as many man games to injury as we did last year? Unlikely. I hope.

Bring on Game #1. Bruins won last night, so I think we are in even better shape to nab our first 2 points of the year.

GO WINGS!!!

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I don't think "showcasing" players is really a thing. Kindl is an established NHL player, pro scouts know what he is. And they know the Wings want to get rid of him. Plus, he had a terrible pre-season and will likely have a terrible start to the season. The odds are pretty good at that. As a risk analysis thing, why would you risk exposing him as even worse than people know he already is?

You trade him for whatever you can get, because there will be no beneficial trade in this situation, or you waive him/buy him out because we can afford the cap hit. Holland may not want to lose him for nothing, but he's not going to get anything more than a 7th round pick, probably conditional.

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Honestly, I think if there's any issue with Weiss and management, it might be over him not being as upfront about his injury as he could have been. If I recall, there were a few comments from management about not knowing the full extent of Weiss' issues. He may have some issues fitting into the system, I don't know. It honestly might not be an issue, but I think not being open about being hurt wasn't a good way to start things off in Detroit.

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