krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) Euro_Twings, I agree, DeKeyser is a great defensive defenseman with limited offensive ability. I think he will grow into a solid two-way defenseman, but as of right now, he is definitely more defensive minded. Then we have Smith, who is our second best offensive defenseman, behind Kronwall, sitting on the bench, watching the miserable power-play do its thing (suck...). He would be a huge addition to the PP unit but for whatever reason, Babcock refuses to use him there. Bottom line is that Babcock is just too damn stubborn, and once he has his mind set on something or someone, there is no changing it. I honestly think the worst thing that could have happened, has happened. All the reporters in Detroit are asking "why is Smith not getting any opportunity on the power-play?", Babcock's response was, "I'm not getting into every detail why I play everyone and why I don't. That's the beauty of being the coach, you get to decide. You guys get to speculate why I don't do things and I get to decide." To me, that is just adding fuel to the fire... They think I should change things up? What do they know? I'm the best coach in the world. I'll show them... I will mold DeKeyser into the best offensive defenseman in the league. They'll see... Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the point. I do believe his stubbornness gets in the way of his coaching at times. There is no denying he has made a LOT of questionable personnel decisions over the years here in Detroit... C'mon Dickie, you can't be serious? Double the practice time? They're NHL players, how hard do you think it is for them to switch from the diamond formation to the standard formation? They've all played both systems at some point in their career and it would be a simple switch. You really think Nyquist or Tatar or anyone else is going to be all out of sorts, switch from playing the half boards to playing down low? Also, power-plays are always moving when they are effective, players rotating covering positions, it even sometimes switched to two men on the point even when they are only practicing the diamond formation. It's about what parts of the ice are open... Besides, it's not like we would be changing something that is currently working. Our power-play has been atrocious, so what's the harm in trying a new system?... I'll agree that DeKeyser hasn't been THAT bad, and that wasn't my point. My point was that he hasn't been THAT great either, and in my opinion Smith would be THAT much better, so why is he sitting on the bench?... Edited October 26, 2014 by krsmith17 2 themcityblues and kliq reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 Euro_Twings, I agree, DeKeyser is a great defensive defenseman with limited offensive ability. I think he will grow into a solid two-way defenseman, but as of right now, he is definitely more defensive minded. Then we have Smith, who is our second best offensive defenseman, behind Kronwall, sitting on the bench, watching the miserable power-play do its thing (suck...). He would be a huge addition to the PP unit but for whatever reason, Babcock refuses to use him there. Bottom line is that Babcock is just too damn stubborn, and once he has his mind set on something or someone, there is no changing it. I honestly think the worst thing that could have happened, has happened. All the reporters in Detroit are asking "why is Smith not getting any opportunity on the power-play?", Babcock's response was, "I'm not getting into every detail why I play everyone and why I don't. That's the beauty of being the coach, you get to decide. You guys get to speculate why I don't do things and I get to decide." To me, that is just adding fuel to the fire... They think I should change things up? What do they know? I'm the best coach in the world. I'll show them... I will mold DeKeyser into the best offensive defenseman in the league. They'll see... Okay, maybe I'm exaggerating a little, but you get the point. I do believe his stubbornness gets in the way of his coaching at times. There is no denying he has made a LOT of questionable personnel decisions over the years here in Detroit... C'mon Dickie, you can't be serious? Double the practice time? They're NHL players, how hard do you think it is for them to switch from the diamond formation to the standard formation? They've all played both systems at some point in their career and it would be a simple switch. You really think Nyquist or Tatar or anyone else is going to be all out of sorts, switch from playing the half boards to playing down low? Also, power-plays are always moving when they are effective, players rotating covering positions, it even sometimes switched to two men on the point even when they are only practicing the diamond formation. It's about what parts of the ice are open... Besides, it's not like we would be changing something that is currently working. Our power-play has been atrocious, so what's the harm in trying a new system?... I'll agree that DeKeyser hasn't been THAT bad, and that wasn't my point. My point was that he hasn't been THAT great either, and in my opinion Smith would be THAT much better, so why is he sitting on the bench?... They still need to practice it. If they have to run 2 separate systems, they'll need to practice them both. Even with the players moving, they know WHERE to move because they practice the system. This isn't rec league where you just go out and do whatever. Dekeyser is on the point because he's the only d-man out there and the difference between him and Smith defensively is greater than the difference between them offensively. Dekeyser had 18 points in 65 game at even strength last year, which is really pretty good for a second pairing D-man. He's capable back there, but he needs help from the forwards who have done jack squat so far this year. As far as the new system goes, it hasn't been working but A) it's new and you need to give things time, and B) teams go through slumps where a PP or PK doesn't work, and they have stretches where it's lights out. At the end of the year things average out. C) they haven't had both Datsyuk and Franzen for the PP, one has been hurt. That doesn't help things on the PP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) My point exactly, this is NOT a rec league, it's the NHL, the best players in the world, they know where to be because they've all been playing forever... Yes, they still need to practice it, but would it be that difficult to practice two different systems? I don't think so. They have to practice separately as two different units anyway, so the only extra work would be on Jim Hiller. There would be no extra work on any of the players whatsoever in my opinion. I agree that you need to be somewhat defensively responsible with the diamond formation because there is only one defenseman manning the point, which is why I suggested switching to the standard formation with both Smith AND DeKeyser or whoever else. But Smith needs to see some power-play time, bottom line in my opinion. Yes, DeKeyser had 18 points at even strength last year as a second pairing defenseman but Smith had the same number of points as a third pairing defenseman... Edited October 26, 2014 by krsmith17 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 My point exactly, this is NOT a rec league, it's the NHL, the best players in the world, they know where to be because they've all been playing forever... Yes, they still need to practice it, but would it be that difficult to practice two different systems? I don't think so. They have to practice separately as two different units anyway, so the only extra work would be on Jim Hiller. There would be no extra work on any of the players whatsoever in my opinion. I agree that you need to be somewhat defensively responsible with the diamond formation because there is only one defenseman manning the point, which is why I suggested switching to the standard formation with both Smith AND DeKeyser or whoever else. But Smith needs to see some power-play time, bottom line in my opinion. Yes, DeKeyser had 18 points at even strength last year as a second pairing defenseman but Smith had the same number of points as a third pairing defenseman... There is a lot more to it than you seem to think. Teams use a system, not multiple ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 (edited) LOL Ok Dickie, you're right... It would be impossible to think that a team could have two power-play units, one consisting of 4 forwards and a defenseman and the other 3 forwards and 2 defenseman... How difficult would it be to practice with... 1st PP Unit Net Abdelkader Franzen Datsyuk Zetterberg Kronwall 2nd PP Unit Net Nyquist Sheahan Tatar DeKeyser Smith Edited October 26, 2014 by krsmith17 1 UpstateNYRedWingsFan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Internet.Unknown 422 Report post Posted October 26, 2014 DD has a big shot from the point, is a good skater, and is very responsible. He's fine on the PP. Too many people get stuck on labels like "He's a defensive defenseman" while ignoring what a player actually does on the ice. I'm not suggesting Smith shouldn't get time on the PP also. Just stating that DD is competent and will improve with experience. 1 Wingsfan72 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 They could use 2 D. Babcock prefers 4 forwards. Using another d in the 1-3-1 isn't what you suggested though, you want two different set ups. I said as long as they had 1 d in a 1-3-1 Smith wasn't going to be there regularly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 No it is not what I suggested and I never deferred from that. Yes, I do think that two different set-ups would be the best for the personnel options we have for the two units. Nestrasil should not be on the team, let alone the power-play. Helm and Abdelkader are both decent net-front guys but I'd prefer Sheahan over either of those two. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Nyquist, Tatar and Jurco are our only other options until Weiss gets into the lineup. So again, I don't see the harm in having a more skilled player like Smith on the second unit rather than having Nestrasil or any other filler... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 It seems like Babcock is grooming Smith to be a top pairing Dman. If they just gave him PP time before he figured out the defensive side of things then he probably would never have learned. Now look at him, he's pretty damn solid defensively. I think as soon as Smith looks like a threat to score night in night out he'll be slotted in the PP. He's been a part of like 3-4 good scoring chances all year. Everyone on the defense needs to be better on the attack i.e make a concentrated effort to get pucks through from the point. We're a team that loves to have traffic in front of the net but we can't shoot from the point? Our offensive attack has a huge gaping hole in it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Keep your first unit the diamond formation with Kronwall at the point, Datsyuk in the middle, Zetterberg and Franzen on the half walls, and Abdelkader at the net front, then for your second unit, go with the standard formation with two defensemen, Smith and DeKeyser, with Nyquist and Tatar down low and Sheahan or Jurco at the net front. That way you have two different power-play looks and it will keep the opposition on their toes... Didn't say use different strategies? Really? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Dickie, you obviously didn't understand what I was saying, and maybe that's my fault for not explaining it clearly, or who knows... Anyway, what I meant in my last response was, no, I did not suggest using another defenseman in the diamond formation, and yes, I am absolutely, 100% suggesting that they should use two different setups for the two different units. Which would be one defenseman (Kronwall) on the first unit using the diamond formation, and two defensemen (DeKeyser and Smith) on the second unit using the standard formation. I really don't think that's that difficult to understand after me explaining it over and over again, even basically drawing you a picture... Anyway, these guys are pros, I'm sure they can handle two different power-play strategies. How is it any different from the strategy that our top line would play at even strength to the strategy our 4th line would play at even strength? Each unit is taught to play different ways. A line with Datsyuk or Zetterberg can play puck possession, gain the zone and skill their way around the opposition, whereas a 4th line has to chip and chase, grind down low, outmuscle and outwork the opposition. In my opinion, the same goes for the two power-play units. Their are two different skill sets on each unit, so why should they be forced to play the same way? I don't think anyone on the team is capable of playing the middle of the ice as well as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. They can direct traffic and make those one touch passes that no one on the second unit seems capable of doing, hence switching up the strategy. Anyway, this is getting beaten to death and I'm sick of reiterating the same point over and over again. The defense has been solid but needs to generate more offense. Smith needs a shot on the power-play, just to see if he can improve it any. I'm sure he would. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 It wold make a lot more sense to use 2 D in the diamond with Smith in the middle spot than to use an entirely different strategy between the two. The 1-3-1 can be used with either 4 forwards and 1 D or 3 and 2, with the second D in the middle of the 3. F F D D F The issue with that is that the second D playing down farther has to have a good shot, and I'm not sure Smith's is good enough. Either way, the high D has to be good enough defensively to be the last guy back, and Smith is definitely not that right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Let's just agree to disagree on this one... I don't think a defenseman in the middle of the diamond makes sense at all, that is the last place I would put Smith. The player in the middle is who you want directing traffic, and can make the quick one touch passes and can also be a trigger man. I also disagree that Smith wouldn't be capable of manning the point, even if he were the last man back in the diamond. He has improved his defensive game immensely and is much smarter with the puck. Even if he does make a mistake, he is our fastest defenseman, so the chance of him recovering is much higher than any of the other d, in my opinion. Either way, I'm done with this. I just want our power-play to improve. It's clearly not getting it done now, whether that's on the system they're using, the coaching strategies or the personnel, who knows... 1 dirtydangles reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Let's just agree to disagree on this one... I don't think a defenseman in the middle of the diamond makes sense at all, that is the last place I would put Smith. The player in the middle is who you want directing traffic, and can make the quick one touch passes and can also be a trigger man. I also disagree that Smith wouldn't be capable of manning the point, even if he were the last man back in the diamond. He has improved his defensive game immensely and is much smarter with the puck. Even if he does make a mistake, he is our fastest defenseman, so the chance of him recovering is much higher than any of the other d, in my opinion. Either way, I'm done with this. I just want our power-play to improve. It's clearly not getting it done now, whether that's on the system they're using, the coaching strategies or the personnel, who knows... I like the idea of trying Smith on the PP point (I mean, what could it hurt) but it's not going to work unless Babs' is going to let him use his wheels to make plays. Utilized in that way Smith could be dangerous. Utilized in the traditional "point shot-rebound-goal" strategy I think he's not much of an improvement because he's got a decent wrister, but not a noteworthy one timer. But again, Babs would have to let him wheel and deal to be effective, which I can't see happening. I also agree with you that there's not really a problem with trying him on the PP despite his defensive gaffs. Subban and Wisniewski are two players who come to mind who are awesome on the PP despite being shaky defensively (at times). I'm not sure why we can only use guys who are defensive studs...though I suppose that's not too different than the rest of our game. At times I think we're so petrified by the thought that the other team might get a scoring chance that creating any of our own becomes a secondary priority. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Completely agree. That was my initial thought about Smith on the power-play as well. He can skate the puck better than any defender on the team, and that includes Kronwall, in my opinion. He would be another much needed option on the second unit for zone entry. He has the skating ability to back off the opposition, gain the zone and set up. As it is right now, Nyquist is the only option on the second unit that has been able to do this. Tatar is capable, but has struggled mightily so far this season. There seems to be a lot of second guessing and hesitation in his game right now, for whatever reason. Smith really needs to get a look on the power-play at the very least. 1:14 of 51:37 total power-play time is just unacceptable for a player of his skillset, especially for a team that has struggled as much as we have on the power-play so far this season. Also, great points on Subban and Wisniewski, neither of those teams have allowed a short-handed goal against. I really don't see Smith as a liability on the point on the power-play. There's no way he can be any worse than any of the other options we've had over the past few years... Alfredsson had a bomb from the point and produced a lot for us on the power-play last year, but he was awful at holding the zone more often than not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 He can't possibly be any worse than having Datsyuk at the blueline Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 The reluctance to use Smith on the PP is a little frustrating given how bad it is right now. Not that he'll necessarily be the solution, but could it hurt? Babcock used to put Hudler out on the PP at the point. While Hudler may have been more responsible with the puck, him being the last guy back meant if the Wings turn the puck over near the blueline it's a guaranteed breakaway because Huds is so slow. Could Smith really be that much worse? Smith did average over a minute per game on the PP in his 34 games in 2013 so it's not like Babcock has never put him out there. Whatever the reservations are I'd hope that at some point he gives Smith a chance to prove him wrong. 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Datsyuk has been on the blueline for the face-offs on the power-play but once the puck is dropped, if they win the face-off and manage to set-up (I know, that has rarely happened...) he usually drifts to the middle of the ice or to the half boards while Kronwall mans the point. The couple times I did notice him back there last game, he looked alright, but I do agree that he would be much better used in the middle or on the wing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Completely agree. That was my initial thought about Smith on the power-play as well. He can skate the puck better than any defender on the team, and that includes Kronwall, in my opinion. He would be another much needed option on the second unit for zone entry. He has the skating ability to back off the opposition, gain the zone and set up. As it is right now, Nyquist is the only option on the second unit that has been able to do this. Tatar is capable, but has struggled mightily so far this season. There seems to be a lot of second guessing and hesitation in his game right now, for whatever reason. Smith really needs to get a look on the power-play at the very least. 1:14 of 51:37 total power-play time is just unacceptable for a player of his skillset, especially for a team that has struggled as much as we have on the power-play so far this season. Also, great points on Subban and Wisniewski, neither of those teams have allowed a short-handed goal against. I really don't see Smith as a liability on the point on the power-play. There's no way he can be any worse than any of the other options we've had over the past few years... Alfredsson had a bomb from the point and produced a lot for us on the power-play last year, but he was awful at holding the zone more often than not. Once everyone is healthy I'd try something like... Sheahan (Net Front) Datsyuk, Nyquist, Franzen Kronwall Abby Zetterberg, Tatar, Jurco Smith That's about as good as I can figure a couple of powerplay units based on the current roster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) I agree haroldsnepsts, Hudler and also Samuelsson were awful on the point on the power-play. Smith would be a massive upgrade. That was the lock-out shortened season that he got all that time on the power-play, before we acquired Danny "the offensive dynamo" DeKeyser. Ever since half way through last season, for whatever reason DeKeyser has been a mainstay on that second unit. Smith went from 1:09 power-play per game pre DeKeyser, to 0:10 per game post DeKeyser... Edit: It may seem like I'm bashing DeKeyser but that's not my intention. He is a great defenseman and he is deserving of power-play time, I just want to see Smith get a look as well... Edited October 27, 2014 by krsmith17 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DickieDunn 2,571 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 I agree haroldsnepsts, Hudler and also Samuelsson were awful on the point on the power-play. Smith would be a massive upgrade. That was the lock-out shortened season that he got all that time on the power-play, before we acquired Danny "the offensive dynamo" DeKeyser. Ever since half way through last season, for whatever reason DeKeyser has been a mainstay on that second unit. Smith went from 1:09 power-play per game pre DeKeyser, to 0:10 per game post DeKeyser... Edit: It may seem like I'm bashing DeKeyser but that's not my intention. He is a great defenseman and he is deserving of power-play time, I just want to see Smith get a look as well... Those were different systems when they had 2 point men. In the current set up they'd likely be on the half boards or the middle of the diamond. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 (edited) I'm well aware of that. It's like you're going out of your way to try to prove my theory (that Smith should be getting more power-play time) wrong... But both years he went from 1:09 to 0:10 they were using the standard 2 point-men formation... What's your point? Edited October 27, 2014 by krsmith17 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted October 27, 2014 Krsmith its hard to be wrong when you're advocating for change in a powerplay that's currently sitting at 6.7%. I've been a big supporter in Smith seeing some powerplay time, but after giving it some more thought I wonder if we're overestimating his ability. I'm going just off memory so I may be way off-base, but it seems like most of Smith's offensive chances are generated on stepping into a play where a turnover occurs and leads to the opposition being out of position, or if the other team's defense over-commits to one side of the ice and Smith steps into the soft space at the opposite faceoff circle. Smith is a very opportunistic player. Those opportunities don't pop up on a powerplay, because the shorthanded team is obviously playing conservatively. Having said that, I'm still eager to give the kid a real chance at the powerplay, because he clearly has an offensive mind, even if it doesn't necessarily show in his statistics. Quite frankly, what we need is someone who can score from the blueline. Other teams know after Kronwall, the chances of our defenders putting one in the back of the net is slim. You can see how their penalty kill is set up, with a lot more pressure down low, while our defenders have the time and space for a one-timer, but other teams are fine with that risk. Adding a howitzer from the point keeps the pk more spread out and opens up more space down low, because now the opposition has to respect our D. This, I don't think Smith will do (or anyone on our team, save Kronwall, for that matter). Maybe there's someone in the pipeline that can fill this void, but until then, the Wings need to get more creative. 1 e_prime reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted October 28, 2014 Smith hasn't shown anything more offensively in the attacking zone then DD, E and Q. He looks good this year but most of his chances come from the rush and on 4 on 4. Kindl and Kronwall are the only guys making plays in the offensive zone and sneaking in. Smith needs to do that and I'm sure we'll see him on the PP in no time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dynheart 42 Report post Posted October 28, 2014 (edited) I feel like Smith has the tools to put it together offensively. I mean, you can see it. The instinct is there. But he hasn't found all the tools in the box with that aspect of his game yet. Defensively, however, he has seemed to put it together, for the most part. He'll likely refine his game the next couple years defensively. He and Dekeyser have good offensive instincts. I think overall, Dekeyser is ahead on both fronts. Dekeyser seems to know when to slap it at the goalie, or off a stick, or off the back boards. Not Lidstrom level, but you can tell he's smart with his shots. Smith has explosive moments, only to get robbed by the goalie. You can't teach those moments, as you just have to be that type of player. Kronwall plays like that as well...but he knows how to capitalize. Smith, from the blueline, tends to just grip it and rip it. His shots never make it to the goalie, let alone a teammates stick, or the backboards. Overall, I think he'll surpass Dekeyser in points once he puts it all together....that IF he ever does. If anything, he's getting to be a stud defensively. Edited October 28, 2014 by Dynheart 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
