Rating the Defense through 6 games

[dirtydangles 1,328]

If Smith worked on his shot a bit more he would be lethal. He seems to get lots of opportunities on the rush as the trailing man but just doesn't find the net.

[Fedorovfan 25]

Kindl & Ericsson have been inconsistant. Otherwise the defense is looking better.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

ugh.

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 21m

21 minutes ago

Defense pairs: Kronwall-Ericsson, DeKeyser-Smith, Lashoff-Kindl.

[kipwinger 8,524]

ugh.

Ansar Khan ‏@AnsarKhanMLive 21m

21 minutes ago

Defense pairs: Kronwall-Ericsson, DeKeyser-Smith, Lashoff-Kindl.

Too easy. Kindl's looked fine this year and Lashoff is steady (even if he hasn't improved, which hopefully he has a little). No reason to lament this, aside from the obvious "low hanging fruit" aspect.

[TheXym 2,606]

Give them the chance. I'm actually thinking DeKeyser-Smith will be a great 2nd pair. I agree no reason to panic.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Too easy. Kindl's looked fine this year and Lashoff is steady (even if he hasn't improved, which hopefully he has a little). No reason to lament this, aside from the obvious "low hanging fruit" aspect.

No reason to lament this other than their play last season when paired.

And Kindl has looked fine because he's playing very protected minutes (with the exception of last night when they had a 4 goal lead in the first period and Q got injured). With Quincey out and Lashoff in, he'll likely be less protected and have to pick up more minutes, or at least split them with Lashoff.

So I'm basing my opinion on actual information not "low hanging fruit."

[kipwinger 8,524]

No reason to lament this other than their play last season when paired.

And Kindl has looked fine because he's playing very protected minutes (with the exception of last night when they had a 4 goal lead in the first period and Q got injured). With Quincey out and Lashoff in, he'll likely be less protected and have to pick up more minutes, or at least split them with Lashoff.

So I'm basing my opinion on actual information not "low hanging fruit."

It's low hanging fruit in the same way that "ugh Cleary" is low hanging fruit based on his play last year. Or like Quincey was. Or Sammy before them. I don't think you're making anything up. But I do think it's too easy to complain about third pairing defensemen when they have very little effect on the game relative to the rest of the team. Also, I'm not really sure why you think that pair will now be sheltered less than before. If anything the other four will play even more now.

Why not say "ugh" about that fact that none of Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Helm, Smith, or Dekeyser have produced up to expectations this year? That's a legit concern and has a huge effect on the team. The third pair's future mishaps affect the team far less.

I just think it's too easy to ***** about third pairing d-men...regardless of how bad they obviously are. This team's future does not fall on the shoulders of Kindl and Lashoff, and if it does, someone screwed up worse than they likely will.

[Guest DeGraa55]

At least smith is back with dekeyser.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, no they haven't "produced" up to expectations this year, but all 6 of those guys are playing well. Tatar has been playing very well but has been snake-bitten a lot in the first 10 games. Sheahan has been great down low and along the boards and has created a lot of opportunities but just hasn't been able to capitalize on a lot of them, he has to have hit 3 or 4 posts so far this season... I don't think Jurco has played badly, but I do still think he would benefit from more time down in Grand Rapids. Helm seems to be playing with a lot more poise, despite a few of his gaffs, he still seems to screw up on a lot of his opportunities. Smith has been arguably our best defenseman on most night, and the same can be said about DeKeyser. All in all, I'm not worried about any of these guys, and I think the entire team is playing great hockey.

Edited November 1, 2014 by krsmith17

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

It's low hanging fruit in the same way that "ugh Cleary" is low hanging fruit based on his play last year. Or like Quincey was. Or Sammy before them. I don't think you're making anything up. But I do think it's too easy to complain about third pairing defensemen when they have very little effect on the game relative to the rest of the team. Also, I'm not really sure why you think that pair will now be sheltered less than before. If anything the other four will play even more now.

Why not say "ugh" about that fact that none of Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, Helm, Smith, or Dekeyser have produced up to expectations this year? That's a legit concern and has a huge effect on the team. The third pair's future mishaps affect the team far less.

I just think it's too easy to ***** about third pairing d-men...regardless of how bad they obviously are. This team's future does not fall on the shoulders of Kindl and Lashoff, and if it does, someone screwed up worse than they likely will.

For starters, this thread is about rating the defense. Why would I talk about Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, etc. in a thread about the defense? I also disagree that the third pairing has relatively little effect on the team.

I think they'll be sheltered less than before because prior to last night Kindl was playing about 4 fewer minutes than the next defenseman, who happened to be Quincey. Everyone else was already absorbing some of what would've been Kindl's minutes. Now with Quincey out it's even more minutes to pick up. Some may be absorbed by the other pairs, but I'm guessing Kindl's will have to increase as well.

And I'm not complaining about just any third pairing. I'm reacting specifically that we lost Quincey so now the Wings have to go back to a pairing that wasn't good last season. But apparently I'm not supposed to complain about something that's obviously bad because it's "too easy?" I didn't realize legitimate concerns about the Wings had to be difficult or unconventional.

I also made no statements about this teams' future falling on Kindl or Lashoff. I'm not sure why you're exaggerating it to that point other than to argue against something I never said. Maybe spend more time refuting the actual points and less time making yourself the arbiter of what is worthwhile to post.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Kip, no they haven't "produced" up to expectations this year, but all 6 of those guys are playing well. Tatar has been playing very well but has been snake-bitten a lot in the first 10 games. Sheahan has been great down low and along the boards and has created a lot of opportunities but just hasn't been able to capitalize on a lot of them, he has to have hit 3 or 4 posts so far this season... I don't think Jurco has played badly, but I do still think he would benefit from more time down in Grand Rapids. Helm seems to be playing with a lot more poise, despite a few of his gaffs, he still seems to screw up on a lot of his opportunities. Smith has been arguably our best defenseman on most night, and the same can be said about DeKeyser. All in all, I'm not worried about any of these guys, and I think the entire team is playing great hockey.

It was an example, I only bring it up to make that point that this team will deal with far bigger problems than the temporary Lashoff-Kindl pairing. And anybody making a big deal out of said pairing is blowing things out of proportion.

Also, those guys have combined for 16 points. When a couple of guys have slow starts its just being snake bit. When six guys you rely on to play big roles on your team cannot put up points, there's something going on. I don't know what. But it's not just bad luck.

Edited November 1, 2014 by kipwinger

[kipwinger 8,524]

For starters, this thread is about rating the defense. Why would I talk about Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, etc. in a thread about the defense? I also disagree that the third pairing has relatively little effect on the team.

I think they'll be sheltered less than before because prior to last night Kindl was playing about 4 fewer minutes than the next defenseman, who happened to be Quincey. Everyone else was already absorbing some of what would've been Kindl's minutes. Now with Quincey out it's even more minutes to pick up. Some may be absorbed by the other pairs, but I'm guessing Kindl's will have to increase as well.

And I'm not complaining about just any third pairing. I'm reacting specifically that we lost Quincey so now the Wings have to go back to a pairing that wasn't good last season. But apparently I'm not supposed to complain about something that's obviously bad because it's "too easy?" I didn't realize legitimate concerns about the Wings had to be difficult or unconventional.

I also made no statements about this teams' future falling on Kindl or Lashoff. I'm not sure why you're exaggerating it to that point other than to argue against something I never said. Maybe spend more time refuting the actual points and less time making yourself the arbiter of what is worthwhile to post.

Ok, my fault. In the future I'll "spend more time refuting" your "ugh" statement instead of assuming that you were taking the easy way out and bitching about a pairing that hasn't played one single second together so far this season. From now on I'll give your three letter posts the diligent reading and thought that they deserve.

Or maybe, just maybe, you wait and see if they improve from last year (like Howard has done) before posting your obviously well intentioned and insightful "ugh" remark.

Edited November 1, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

I disagree. Those are not the group of guys that are relied upon to play big roles, in the sense that they should be putting up big numbers. They're all 3rd line / 2nd, 3rd pairing guys. The group of guys that are relied upon to play big roles (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Nyquist and Kronwall) are all producing admirably. Also, I think those other guys are lacking a little luck at the moment, and the puck will start bouncing their way soon enough.

Anyway, back to the defense. Like a lot of people here, I'm happy that the DeKeyser - Smith pairing will be reunited. Hopefully it can stick this time.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I disagree. Those are not the group of guys that are relied upon to play big roles, in the sense that they should be putting up big numbers. They're all 3rd line / 2nd, 3rd pairing guys. The group of guys that are relied upon to play big roles (Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Nyquist and Kronwall) are all producing admirably. Also, I think those other guys are lacking a little luck at the moment, and the puck will start bouncing their way soon enough.

Anyway, back to the defense. Like a lot of people here, I'm happy that the DeKeyser - Smith pairing will be reunited. Hopefully it can stick this time.

I sure hope we're expecting them to play big roles. We've seen over the last five years what happens when we've only got Dats, Z, Franzen, Kronwall, and Ericsson playing hockey. *SPOILER ALERT* We get manhandled in the playoffs by teams with more depth lol.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Also, fun fact. Kindl actually plays one second more 5 on 5 per game than Quincey has. So he's no more "sheltered". Where he loses ground in the TOI per game department is on the special teams where he's averaging 21 seconds a game, compared to Quincey's 2 minutes of special teams TOI per game. So this "Kindl was sheltered when playing with Quincey" argument doesn't hold water.

[krsmith17 7,191]

How do you figure other teams have more depth? These guys are exactly that, 'depth players', at this point in their careers, they are not our go to guys. The points will come. I know we don't have much to worry / complain about right now, but these guys definitely shouldn't be on that list... Depth is not our issue.

[kipwinger 8,524]

How do you figure other teams have more depth? These guys are exactly that, 'depth players', at this point in their careers, they are not our go to guys. The points will come. I know we don't have much to worry / complain about right now, but these guys definitely shouldn't be on that list... Depth is not our issue.

Neither should Kindl and Lashoff. Especially before they've played a single shift together. Which was my point. Downplay the lack of depth scoring all you like, it's still a bigger concern that the Kindl Lashoff pairing is. Which is to say, as long as we're winning games why complain about either right?

[krsmith17 7,191]

I never said anything about the Kindl - Lashoff pairing, and quite honestly, I agree with you on that. It's a new season and they deserve another shot to prove themselves, and so far Kindl has done his part in doing so. I just don't think it's fair to point out the lack of production from some of the players on this team that are playing great every night. There are a couple players on the team that aren't bringing much right now but I wouldn't categorize those guys in there with them...

[dirtydangles 1,328]

If Quincey is out more than 1 game for any extended period of time we should be going with Ouellet. Kindl - Lashoff pairing will probably get picked to pieces fairly quickly by opposing teams.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

If Quincey is out more than 1 game for any extended period of time we should be going with Ouellet. Kindl - Lashoff pairing will probably get picked to pieces fairly quickly by opposing teams.

If they do, and quinceys out for a while I'm sure well see oulette called up.

Or maybe even Jensen.

Just to see if he really is as good as he looked.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I never said anything about the Kindl - Lashoff pairing, and quite honestly, I agree with you on that. It's a new season and they deserve another shot to prove themselves, and so far Kindl has done his part in doing so. I just don't think it's fair to point out the lack of production from some of the players on this team that are playing great every night. There are a couple players on the team that aren't bringing much right now but I wouldn't categorize those guys in there with them...

You and I are talking about two different things. Go back to Harold's original post and my response and watch how the coversation developed. Originally it had everything to do with Kindl and Lashoff. You just happened to come in during the middle of it, and perhaps the full context of what was being discussed was a bit lost in the fray.

[matt198913 932]

Kindl and Lashoff will be fine. They will play a combined 25 minutes unless there are 6 PP's per team. I fully expect Smith and Dekeyser to play the majority of minutes tomorrow.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Kindl and Lashoff will be fine. They will play a combined 25 minutes unless there are 6 PP's per team. I fully expect Smith and Dekeyser to play the majority of minutes tomorrow.

Kronwall Ericsson

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Also, fun fact. Kindl actually plays one second more 5 on 5 per game than Quincey has. So he's no more "sheltered". Where he loses ground in the TOI per game department is on the special teams where he's averaging 21 seconds a game, compared to Quincey's 2 minutes of special teams TOI per game. So this "Kindl was sheltered when playing with Quincey" argument doesn't hold water.

To be totally clear, I didn't say he was sheltered when playing with Quincey. I said his minutes overall are sheltered. Either way the argument still holds water because playing equal even strength minutes with Quincey doesn't prove he's not being sheltered.

For example, at even strength Kindl takes offensive zone starts a whopping 72.8% of the time. The next closest on the team is Quincey's 61.2%. For reference point, of players who have been in at least 10 games, Kindl has the highest percentage offensive starts of anyone in the league.

The bottom line is I made one three letter comment when posting a tweet about Kindl and Lashoff being paired. It was from watching them play together last year, and being worried how they'd fare together this season. Based on what I've seen so far, that fear wasn't unfounded. But you've taken one super minor comment and it turned it into something much larger than it was ever meant to be.

[kipwinger 8,524]

To be totally clear, I didn't say he was sheltered when playing with Quincey. I said his minutes overall are sheltered. Either way the argument still holds water because playing equal even strength minutes with Quincey doesn't prove he's not being sheltered.

For example, at even strength Kindl takes offensive zone starts a whopping 72.8% of the time. The next closest on the team is Quincey's 61.2%. For reference point, of players who have been in at least 10 games, Kindl has the highest percentage offensive starts of anyone in the league.

The bottom line is I made one three letter comment when posting a tweet about Kindl and Lashoff being paired. It was from watching them play together last year, and being worried how they'd fare together this season. Based on what I've seen so far, that fear wasn't unfounded. But you've taken one super minor comment and it turned it into something much larger than it was ever meant to be.

Harold, you must have been in the mood to argue last night or something. This argument is days old, no need to drag it up.

Conversely, last night at 9:53 while you were typing this post, I was watching Jakub Kindl score a goal and add an assist in what was undoubtedly his best game of the season. Without Quincey.

:-)