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Richdg

Mantha getting closer.

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It was clearly a made up stat by Rich, seems how hits weren't tracked until after the 2004 lockout...

EDIT: The NHL did not start tracking hits until Shanahan was 36 years old. In his last season with the Wings in '05-'06 he had 74 hits in 82 games. Then he went on to play with the Rangers for 2 seasons from '06-'08 where he had 113 hits in 140 games. Then he played his final year with the Devils in '08-'09 where he had 18 hits in 34 games.

So in his final 4 seasons when his body was breaking down he averaged under a hit per game... What about when he was in his prime? One of the best power forwards in the league?...

Edited by krsmith17

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Last year everybody was ready to trade Tatar "because we have Nyquist so he's redundant" and this year many are ready to trade Jurco "because we've got Mantha". About the time we draft and develop top six wingers folks are ready to trade them. Insane.

To me, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Larkin, Mantha, Quellet, Sproul, and Marchenko are untouchable. Which still gives us Jensen, Backman, Pulkkinen, and one of Nosek or Athanasiou as high end prospects for trade.

Think about it. In five years the wingers on your top two lines can be some combination of Tatar, Nyquist, Mantha, and Jurco and your top four defensemen could be Sproul-Dekeyser, Ouellet-Marchenko (Lefty-Righty, offensive-defensive in each case).

I agree that people are oftentimes too quick to want to trade away these young guys, and I will admit that I was one of the one's that wanted to trade Tatar, but not because he's too much like Nyquist. I wanted to trade him because he would have garnered the highest return out of our assets at the time. I admit that it probably would have been a bad trade in hindsight. However, I'm still not completely against trading Tatar if the return is big enough. I love Tatar and I never wanted to give him away, but the more he plays the more I'm loving the way he plays.

Jurco is definitely an untouchable in my books and it drives me insance hearing all the people saying we should trade him. I agree with your untouchable list for the most part, but I would probably replace Marchenko with Jensen on my list. I have not been impressed much with Marchenko so far this season, and Jenson impressed a lot in preseason and is doing much of the same down in Grand Rapids. He is a great puck mover with a high hockey IQ, loves to use his body and also has a pretty underrated shot from the blueline. I would also add Athanasiou to my untouchable list. I think he's going to be a beast in the NHL one day...

The reasons I picked Marchenko over Jensen or Backman are these: His size, right shot, great passer, defensive d-man. I wanted another defensive d-man to go alongside Dekeyser. I see Jensen and Backman competing more with Sproul, Ouellet, and Smith and despite being really good, I think they lose out. Also, I think you need to give Marchenko another look. He's a lot like Brad Stuart. You don't always notice how good he's playing because he's not flashy. But you'd sure miss him if he was gone. I definitely see him anchoring an offensive d-man the way Stewie did for Kronwall early on.

As for Athanasiou, I agree he's going to be a beast. I only left him off the list because I think you've got to give to get and because we've got Nosek and Larkin. But really, if we can keep two of the three, I don't care which ones. Ideally we'd keep Larkin and Athanasiou and trade Nosek, but he's an unknown quantity and I doubt (right now) he'd get much interest.

I see where you're coming from with Marchenko, but to be fair, there isn't a huge size difference between the two, they both like to hit when they can, their both righties, I think Jensen is the better passer, while Marchenko is slightly better defensively. I think DeKeyser and Jensen would complement each other quite well as well. I agree completely on the center situation.

2 inches and 15 lbs is a pretty big difference in size. However, I do agree that Jensen would slot well with Dekeyser, but that would leave Sproul with Ouellet and I don't like that because I think Sproul will need someone who lays back and plays defense so that he can make plays offensively...which, by the way, is the reason why I think he (and Backman) aren't playing well this season. I HATE that pairing.

I guess it depends on which site you get your bio from, and I'm assuming you're using the Griffins website which may be the most accurate, but several others list them as 6'1" and 6'2". Either way, I don't see that as a huge difference in deciding who is the better option. They both play big and that's what matters. Sproul definitely needs someone defensively responsible to play with, I agree with that, but Ouellet isn't a terrible option there in my opinion. He is a good offensive defenseman but is also very defensively aware as well. I hope Sproul can clean up on the defensive end of the puck as well or he will get eaten alive in the NHL, especially if Babcock is still the coach by then...

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think Backman and Sproul have seen significant time together this year. I've watched the majority of the Griffins games so far this season and from what I could tell the pairings have been Ouellet - Marchenko, Paetsch - Sproul, and Backman - Jensen...

Every time I watch they've been together, and they were a pair during the prospects tourney as well. Though admittedly, I probably haven't seen as many games as you. I watch when I've got a stream and the Wings aren't playing at the same time.

I agree with most of your thoughts above, except that I'll say I'm not overly concerned with Sproul being less than stellar in his own zone, given his offensive upside. None of Doughty, Subban, or Cam Fowler were great in their zone for a few years. Still, their offensive skill set made it worth while to keep them on the big club. They just needed their minutes sheltered a bit until them matured. I know it won't happen because this is Detroit, but I'd have that kid focusing almost entirely on honing his offensive skills and being adequate defensively. I'm not convinced its always best to have guys that do a little of everything pretty well. Sometimes it helps to have a few guys who do one thing extremely well. With his skill set Ryan Sproul should regularly put up 50+ points in the NHL. But probably not if the organization requires him to do it the way Lidstrom did.

I couldn't agree more on Sproul. I would love for him to become a Doughty, Subban, Karlsson lite, but the key part in my above post was "especially if Babcock is still the coach by then"... We know damn well how Babcock treats his offensive minded (gifted) defensemen...

Well every game I've watched those are the pairings I've seen, so who knows... lol

So... you guys are saying we have some options on the back-end?

YAY!!! WE HAVE SO MANY OPTIONS!!!

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Have you been on a bender for the last couple of days lol? Your posts are...interesting?

Doannn ssshhuuuuu telll meeee how mushhh I shud drnkkk.... I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

Lol.

Actually, I just wanted to jump into the conversation, but got to the party too late. You and krsmith keeping the conversation on defensive depth seriously on point. Kudos!

As far as my overall posting of late... spent a week in Seattle training for a new job and then this week has been nothing but more training and whatnot so my hockey-life has been pretty "sparse." Just kinda jumping in where possible. Also, yes... especially during GTDs, I have been known to enjoy an adult beverage or two. So... yeah...

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Doannn ssshhuuuuu telll meeee how mushhh I shud drnkkk.... I DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM!!!

Lol.

Actually, I just wanted to jump into the conversation, but got to the party too late. You and krsmith keeping the conversation on defensive depth seriously on point. Kudos!

As far as my overall posting of late... spent a week in Seattle training for a new job and then this week has been nothing but more training and whatnot so my hockey-life has been pretty "sparse." Just kinda jumping in where possible. Also, yes... especially during GTDs, I have been known to enjoy an adult beverage or two. So... yeah...

I'm starting to think that everyone on this site is a drunk lol. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

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I'm starting to think that everyone on this site is a drunk lol. Not that there's anything wrong with that...

number9

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Scotch, huh? More of a Rye Whiskey guy, but sure... we could hang.

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number9

  • Group Member
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Scotch, huh? More of a Rye Whiskey guy, but sure... we could hang.

A+ in homework

Literally just got back from the liquor store, and I chose Bourbon. I feel like a failure. Time for drinks.

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So you accuse me of making up stats, then post the stats that prove I didn't make those up, then try to discredit the stats..... Ok.

Shanny wasn't a banger. Nor does being a "power forward" mean fighting. Does a player use their size and strength while playing the game? That can mean hits, fights, using the assets to protect the puck etc.... Is Ovie a power forward? Yes. Does he fight? Nope. Is Ryan a power forward? yes. Does he fight? Not much. You get the point.

Manthas game is very close to Shanny's. Now does that mean he is going to score 40 goals per year during his prime? No one knows. he could or he could be a bust.

Either way it will be fun to watch.

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Guest DeGraa55

So you accuse me of making up stats, then post the stats that prove I didn't make those up, then try to discredit the stats..... Ok.

Shanny wasn't a banger. Nor does being a "power forward" mean fighting. Does a player use their size and strength while playing the game? That can mean hits, fights, using the assets to protect the puck etc.... Is Ovie a power forward? Yes. Does he fight? Nope. Is Ryan a power forward? yes. Does he fight? Not much. You get the point.

Manthas game is very close to Shanny's. Now does that mean he is going to score 40 goals per year during his prime? No one knows. he could or he could be a bust.

Either way it will be fun to watch.

Actually when I used to be able to watch ovi he would fight a handful of times a year. But then his teammates started jumping in so he didn't have to. I'd bet my left nut ovi would fight most anyone...it just wouldn't result in a win for him or his team.

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Yes Rich, I am accusing you of making up stats because the stat did not exist prior to the 2004 lockout. Did you track Shanahan's hits yourself prior to that?... I'm pretty sure that is enough to discredit your stats. If you can prove Shanahan "wasn't a banger" or that he "averaged less than 1 hit per game" throughout his career, by all means, prove it, otherwise it is a made up stat...

I never once said that a power forward means fighting so I have no idea where you're getting that. You're the one that compared Mantha to Shanahan because of his fighting ability... Mantha is a power forward, Shanahan was one of the best power forwards of his era. I don't think it's fair to compare Mantha to Shanahan, especially for his fighting ability. Like has been said numerous times before, Mantha is closest to a Jeff Carter type player, and I've also heard James Neal floated around, but Shanahan? Not in my opinion...

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Actually when I used to be able to watch ovi he would fight a handful of times a year. But then his teammates started jumping in so he didn't have to. I'd bet my left nut ovi would fight most anyone...it just wouldn't result in a win for him or his team.

Ovechkin has three career fights, the last one being in 2010 when he jumped Dubinsky. The other two were mostly scrums with a couple punches thrown.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/4578

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Guest DeGraa55

Ovechkin has three career fights, the last one being in 2010 when he jumped Dubinsky. The other two were mostly scrums with a couple punches thrown.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/players/4578

This one is from 2013...great stats you got Harold LOL

And this is why I'm talking about how he won't back away from someone...even if they're a giant

And here is what I mean by willing to fight but teammates interfere:

So I don't know if the site that you use is wrong or if you are but either way id be my left but that there's a lot if fights not recorded. To me any time two people are throwing punches it's a "fight" even if it's more of a scrum.

Edit: ya I clicked your link. Your joke of a site is clearly wrong...look at the link I posted with a fight from 2013. I'll trust my very own eyeballs where I've seen him fight numerous times or teammates interfere over your terribly wrong source.

Edited by DeGraa55

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This one is from 2013...great stats you got Harold LOL

And this is why I'm talking about how he won't back away from someone...even if they're a giant

And here is what I mean by willing to fight but teammates interfere:

So I don't know if the site that you use is wrong or if you are but either way id be my left but that there's a lot if fights not recorded. To me any time two people are throwing punches it's a "fight" even if it's more of a scrum.

The site technically wasn't wrong. In the 2013 fight you posted, they were given roughing minors, not fighting majors, which is why it wasn't included on hockeyfights

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Guest DeGraa55

The site technically wasn't wrong. In the 2013 fight you posted, they were given roughing minors, not fighting majors, which is why it wasn't included on hockeyfights

Well that's not my problem. A fight is a fight even if it wasn't a good one...

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Well that's not my problem. A fight is a fight even if it wasn't a good one...

When you say you used to watch Ovi fight a handful of times each year, if you're including fights like these where nobody throws a punch and they just hug eachother, I can see how you got to that number. I guess by that definition I've watched Franzen fight a few times a year, too. They weren't good fights, but thats not my problem.

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So I don't know if the site that you use is wrong or if you are but either way id be my left but that there's a lot if fights not recorded. To me any time two people are throwing punches it's a "fight" even if it's more of a scrum.

Edit: ya I clicked your link. Your joke of a site is clearly wrong...look at the link I posted with a fight from 2013. I'll trust my very own eyeballs where I've seen him fight numerous times or teammates interfere over your terribly wrong source.

Let me get this straight...you think Ovechkin is engaged in a fight in videos 2(Nash) and 4(Chara) that you posted?

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3NklthJ7foI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GUhXK_hanuE

This one is from 2013...great stats you got Harold LOL

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wuBrSuW3ojo

And this is why I'm talking about how he won't back away from someone...even if they're a giant

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zJJCMPp0mlg

And here is what I mean by willing to fight but teammates interfere:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Sq1Kwz-zc

So I don't know if the site that you use is wrong or if you are but either way id be my left but that there's a lot if fights not recorded. To me any time two people are throwing punches it's a "fight" even if it's more of a scrum.

Edit: ya I clicked your link. Your joke of a site is clearly wrong...look at the link I posted with a fight from 2013. I'll trust my very own eyeballs where I've seen him fight numerous times or teammates interfere over your terribly wrong source.

My joke of a site? I have no affiliation with them, and hockeyfights is a pretty great source for tracking fighting.

The problem seems to be that you think having the gloves off when you hug someone constitutes a fight. Whereas they actually track real fights.

Someone throwing a gloved punch in a scrum is also not a fight, especially when you're trying to use it as evidence that they'd fight all takers if players didn't jump in.

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Guest DeGraa55

My joke of a site? I have no affiliation with them, and hockeyfights is a pretty great source for tracking fighting.

The problem seems to be that you think having the gloves off when you hug someone constitutes a fight. Whereas they actually track real fights.

Someone throwing a gloved punch in a scrum is also not a fight, especially when you're trying to use it as evidence that they'd fight all takers if players didn't jump in.

Punches were thrown in the 2013 one at the start of it. Then yea it turned into a hugfest but that's still a fight.

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