Mantha getting closer.

[Richdg 267]

Mantha will move up before Pulks because he does things that Pulks can't due to size. I like Pulks but he is one of about 8 guys that fit the "small scoring euro" description. How many do we have the fit the "power forward" description? No one other than Mantha. Please don't even try to put franzen in that group....

But Mantha needs a good 15-20 AHL games first. 2 reasons: 1 to develop and 2 so I have time to get down and watch him! LOL

As for Mantha dropping the gloves, 1 word: Shanahan.

[krsmith17 7,191]

As for comparing Mantha to Shanahan, 2 words: different era. There is no way management are going to want Mantha dropping his gloves, so those of you that are looking forward to the next Shanahan type of player, you're going to be sadly disappointed in that regard.

[Richdg 267]

As for comparing Mantha to Shanahan, 2 words: different era. There is no way management are going to want Mantha dropping his gloves, so those of you that are looking forward to the next Shanahan type of player, you're going to be sadly disappointed in that regard.

10 years ago in not a different era. Now is mantha as good at it as Shanny? no. he isn't going to become our resident goon nor do I want him to. But he will go if/when needed. it would be MUCH better if we had a McCarty type that could do this instead. But we don't......

[UpstateNYRedWingsFan 42]

Mantha will move up before Pulks because he does things that Pulks can't due to size. I like Pulks but he is one of about 8 guys that fit the "small scoring euro" description. How many do we have the fit the "power forward" description? No one other than Mantha. Please don't even try to put franzen in that group....

But Mantha needs a good 15-20 AHL games first. 2 reasons: 1 to develop and 2 so I have time to get down and watch him! LOL

As for Mantha dropping the gloves, 1 word: Shanahan.

I'd put Abdelkader there now. He isn't playing like a grinder anymore, he's making offensive plays.

[CMatt89 63]

Develop him in the nhl. Callahan and mantha could really change the dynamic of the team. Not saying callahan is a game changer but a 4th line with callahan instead of andersson could be interesting. Its looking like a trade and some exposure to waivers is on the red wings horizon. _Maybe helm is gonna get moved? Seems like his injuries and inefective play has allowed sheahan to really grab the 3rd center role. As for a trade, wings still need the right handed number 2 or 3 guy. Oulette and smith could make a solid pairing. Maybe jurco and helm and a center and defensive prospect get packaged for a puck moving offensive d guy. Looks like mantha would slip in for jurco or andersson.

Edited November 24, 2014 by CMatt89

[Richdg 267]

I'd put Abdelkader there now. He isn't playing like a grinder anymore, he's making offensive plays.

Better yes. But let him score 20 goals at least once in a season before we consider him more than a grinder type-which he is good at.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Last year everybody was ready to trade Tatar "because we have Nyquist so he's redundant" and this year many are ready to trade Jurco "because we've got Mantha". About the time we draft and develop top six wingers folks are ready to trade them. Insane.

To me, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Larkin, Mantha, Quellet, Sproul, and Marchenko are untouchable. Which still gives us Jensen, Backman, Pulkkinen, and one of Nosek or Athanasiou as high end prospects for trade.

Think about it. In five years the wingers on your top two lines can be some combination of Tatar, Nyquist, Mantha, and Jurco and your top four defensemen could be Sproul-Dekeyser, Ouellet-Marchenko (Lefty-Righty, offensive-defensive in each case).

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree that people are oftentimes too quick to want to trade away these young guys, and I will admit that I was one of the one's that wanted to trade Tatar, but not because he's too much like Nyquist. I wanted to trade him because he would have garnered the highest return out of our assets at the time. I admit that it probably would have been a bad trade in hindsight. However, I'm still not completely against trading Tatar if the return is big enough. I love Tatar and I never wanted to give him away, but the more he plays the more I'm loving the way he plays.

Jurco is definitely an untouchable in my books and it drives me insance hearing all the people saying we should trade him. I agree with your untouchable list for the most part, but I would probably replace Marchenko with Jensen on my list. I have not been impressed much with Marchenko so far this season, and Jenson impressed a lot in preseason and is doing much of the same down in Grand Rapids. He is a great puck mover with a high hockey IQ, loves to use his body and also has a pretty underrated shot from the blueline. I would also add Athanasiou to my untouchable list. I think he's going to be a beast in the NHL one day...

[kipwinger 8,518]

I agree that people are oftentimes too quick to want to trade away these young guys, and I will admit that I was one of the one's that wanted to trade Tatar, but not because he's too much like Nyquist. I wanted to trade him because he would have garnered the highest return out of our assets at the time. I admit that it probably would have been a bad trade in hindsight. However, I'm still not completely against trading Tatar if the return is big enough. I love Tatar and I never wanted to give him away, but the more he plays the more I'm loving the way he plays.

Jurco is definitely an untouchable in my books and it drives me insance hearing all the people saying we should trade him. I agree with your untouchable list for the most part, but I would probably replace Marchenko with Jensen on my list. I have not been impressed much with Marchenko so far this season, and Jenson impressed a lot in preseason and is doing much of the same down in Grand Rapids. He is a great puck mover with a high hockey IQ, loves to use his body and also has a pretty underrated shot from the blueline. I would also add Athanasiou to my untouchable list. I think he's going to be a beast in the NHL one day...

The reasons I picked Marchenko over Jensen or Backman are these: His size, right shot, great passer, defensive d-man. I wanted another defensive d-man to go alongside Dekeyser. I see Jensen and Backman competing more with Sproul, Ouellet, and Smith and despite being really good, I think they lose out. Also, I think you need to give Marchenko another look. He's a lot like Brad Stuart. You don't always notice how good he's playing because he's not flashy. But you'd sure miss him if he was gone. I definitely see him anchoring an offensive d-man the way Stewie did for Kronwall early on.

As for Athanasiou, I agree he's going to be a beast. I only left him off the list because I think you've got to give to get and because we've got Nosek and Larkin. But really, if we can keep two of the three, I don't care which ones. Ideally we'd keep Larkin and Athanasiou and trade Nosek, but he's an unknown quantity and I doubt (right now) he'd get much interest.

Edited November 24, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

I see where you're coming from with Marchenko, but to be fair, there isn't a huge size difference between the two, they both like to hit when they can, their both righties, I think Jensen is the better passer, while Marchenko is slightly better defensively. I think DeKeyser and Jensen would complement each other quite well as well. I agree completely on the center situation.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I see where you're coming from with Marchenko, but to be fair, there isn't a huge size difference between the two, they both like to hit when they can, their both righties, I think Jensen is the better passer, while Marchenko is slightly better defensively. I think DeKeyser and Jensen would complement each other quite well as well. I agree completely on the center situation.

2 inches and 15 lbs is a pretty big difference in size. However, I do agree that Jensen would slot well with Dekeyser, but that would leave Sproul with Ouellet and I don't like that because I think Sproul will need someone who lays back and plays defense so that he can make plays offensively...which, by the way, is the reason why I think he (and Backman) aren't playing well this season. I HATE that pairing.

[PumpkinEscobar 136]

I agree that people are oftentimes too quick to want to trade away these young guys, and I will admit that I was one of the one's that wanted to trade Tatar, but not because he's too much like Nyquist. I wanted to trade him because he would have garnered the highest return out of our assets at the time. I admit that it probably would have been a bad trade in hindsight. However, I'm still not completely against trading Tatar if the return is big enough. I love Tatar and I never wanted to give him away, but the more he plays the more I'm loving the way he plays.

Jurco is definitely an untouchable in my books and it drives me insance hearing all the people saying we should trade him. I agree with your untouchable list for the most part, but I would probably replace Marchenko with Jensen on my list. I have not been impressed much with Marchenko so far this season, and Jenson impressed a lot in preseason and is doing much of the same down in Grand Rapids. He is a great puck mover with a high hockey IQ, loves to use his body and also has a pretty underrated shot from the blueline. I would also add Athanasiou to my untouchable list. I think he's going to be a beast in the NHL one day...

I agree with Athanasiou...that size and speed will be very valuable

[krsmith17 7,191]

I guess it depends on which site you get your bio from, and I'm assuming you're using the Griffins website which may be the most accurate, but several others list them as 6'1" and 6'2". Either way, I don't see that as a huge difference in deciding who is the better option. They both play big and that's what matters. Sproul definitely needs someone defensively responsible to play with, I agree with that, but Ouellet isn't a terrible option there in my opinion. He is a good offensive defenseman but is also very defensively aware as well. I hope Sproul can clean up on the defensive end of the puck as well or he will get eaten alive in the NHL, especially if Babcock is still the coach by then...

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think Backman and Sproul have seen significant time together this year. I've watched the majority of the Griffins games so far this season and from what I could tell the pairings have been Ouellet - Marchenko, Paetsch - Sproul, and Backman - Jensen...

[kipwinger 8,518]

I guess it depends on which site you get your bio from, and I'm assuming you're using the Griffins website which may be the most accurate, but several others list them as 6'1" and 6'2". Either way, I don't see that as a huge difference in deciding who is the better option. They both play big and that's what matters. Sproul definitely needs someone defensively responsible to play with, I agree with that, but Ouellet isn't a terrible option there in my opinion. He is a good offensive defenseman but is also very defensively aware as well. I hope Sproul can clean up on the defensive end of the puck as well or he will get eaten alive in the NHL, especially if Babcock is still the coach by then...

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think Backman and Sproul have seen significant time together this year. I've watched the majority of the Griffins games so far this season and from what I could tell the pairings have been Ouellet - Marchenko, Paetsch - Sproul, and Backman - Jensen...

Every time I watch they've been together, and they were a pair during the prospects tourney as well. Though admittedly, I probably haven't seen as many games as you. I watch when I've got a stream and the Wings aren't playing at the same time.

I agree with most of your thoughts above, except that I'll say I'm not overly concerned with Sproul being less than stellar in his own zone, given his offensive upside. None of Doughty, Subban, or Cam Fowler were great in their zone for a few years. Still, their offensive skill set made it worth while to keep them on the big club. They just needed their minutes sheltered a bit until them matured. I know it won't happen because this is Detroit, but I'd have that kid focusing almost entirely on honing his offensive skills and being adequate defensively. I'm not convinced its always best to have guys that do a little of everything pretty well. Sometimes it helps to have a few guys who do one thing extremely well. With his skill set Ryan Sproul should regularly put up 50+ points in the NHL. But probably not if the organization requires him to do it the way Lidstrom did.

Edited November 24, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

I couldn't agree more on Sproul. I would love for him to become a Doughty, Subban, Karlsson lite, but the key part in my above post was "especially if Babcock is still the coach by then"... We know damn well how Babcock treats his offensive minded (gifted) defensemen...

Well every game I've watched those are the pairings I've seen, so who knows... lol

[Swayze 81]

Mantha will move up before Pulks because he does things that Pulks can't due to size. I like Pulks but he is one of about 8 guys that fit the "small scoring euro" description. How many do we have the fit the "power forward" description? No one other than Mantha. Please don't even try to put franzen in that group....

But Mantha needs a good 15-20 AHL games first. 2 reasons: 1 to develop and 2 so I have time to get down and watch him! LOL

I have to disagree with this. Move up completely, maybe, but being called up before Pulks, not a chance. Mantha being able to do things that Pulks can't because of his size? I saw the exact opposite of that statement.

I was at the Griffins game on Saturday and watched Mantha/Pulks/Callahan very closely. Believe it or not, Teemu threw around his weight FAR more in a single period than Mantha did the entire game. For the majority of the game Mantha would stand around in the neutral zone and watch other people play hockey. Now don't get me wrong, I like this kid, and will admit he showed a flash of his potential and took it end-to-end through 3 or 4 defenders to get a decent shot on net, but aside from that he was loafing around waiting for the play to come to him, instead of taking control. I figure it's gotta be one of 3 things:

- Still recovering from injury (unlikely considering the afformentioned end-to-end play)

- Still learning the system/learning to play at that level (most likely)

- Laziness (I REALLY hope not)

Hate to say it, but he looked an awful lot like the Mule out there Saturday. He scored, but it was a screening the net, spinorama-type goal you see Franzen/Abby make all the time. He was also pushed off the puck a lot easier than someone his size should have been, but I'm sure he'll figure that out once he gets used to using his size and putting on a few more pounds of muscle.

Pulkkinen on the other hand looked great. Very fast, very aggressive, strong on the puck, and always looking to make a play in one form or another. You can tell he's comfortable with the skill level he's playing against and is ready to take the next step. Callahan was pretty much the same way, although I noticed him a little less for some reason.

If Mantha does get a call-up first, I'd have to assume it's because Franzen got hurt yet again. Aside from that, I don't see them skipping Teemu like that. Then again, in a couple weeks Mantha might find his game and it all changes, but as of right now that's what I noticed.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Swayze

[krsmith17 7,191]

While I do agree with you that Mantha isn't as clear cut to be the first recall that Rich is claiming, I wouldn't be surprised either way. If Pulkkinen gets called up, it is well deserved because he has been working his ass off and has been producing down in the minors for nearly 2 years now. If Mantha gets called up, it is because he has a much better chance in filling in a top 6 role. I love Pulkkinen but as of right now, he is nothing more than a third line NHL winger in Detroit's system, whether he reaches his 2nd line potential is entire up to himself. Mantha on the other hand, although I'd love to see him finish the year in Grand Rapids, is probably going to have the easier transition into a top 6 NHL role because of his size and skill set.

Also, last Saturday was the first Griffins game I missed in a while and the only one I missed that Mantha played in. I seen the highlights but never bothered to watch the full game. But every other game I watched that Mantha played, he flat out dominated when he wanted to. And I don't mean when he wanted to in a lazy way, he seemed to take over the play and did not seem to be lazy or floating at all in the games I seen. So maybe it was just an off game... I may watch that last game tonight before the Wings game if I have the time...

[Swayze 81]

If you do watch it, let me know what you think. I listened to Mantha's first two games, but Saturday was the first I've seen. I suppose he could have had an off-game, especially playing a home-and-home like they did. Regardless, I really hope he turns out like we all expect him to.

Edit: I suppose another thing I should have taken into consideration was that Lake Erie was hacking Mantha after basically every play stoppage he was on the ice for, which probably wore on him as the night went on. Also after he scored there was a bit of a scrum and he end ended up on top of a Lake Erie player and gave him a shot in the mouth, so that was good.

Edit 2: I should also clarify that while Mantha was loafing, it was typically when he just didn't seem to know what to do. He backchecked/forechecked just fine, but just seemed off when the puck was in the neutral zone or in transition and not near him.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Swayze

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I feel there's a big misconception on the type of player Mantha is.

I keep hearing "power forward" and "Shanahan-type" brought up in regards to him. I'm guessing because of his size.

While he's got a big frame, he's not much of an aggressive player. He uses his frame and extensive reach to protect the puck very well and has a cannon of a shot.

High high potential for this kid but not of the power forward variety.

[kipwinger 8,518]

I feel there's a big misconception on the type of player Mantha is.

I keep hearing "power forward" and "Shanahan-type" brought up in regards to him. I'm guessing because of his size.

While he's got a big frame, he's not much of an aggressive player. He uses his frame and extensive reach to protect the puck very well and has a cannon of a shot.

High high potential for this kid but not of the power forward variety.

I hear him compared to James Neal and Jeff Carter most often. I see Neal more than Carter, but those are the players I've heard him compared to.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I hear him compared to James Neal and Jeff Carter most often. I see Neal more than Carter, but those are the players I've heard him compared to.

I've read the same.

And that his "floating" is him trying to get into scoring areas without being noticed, and that it actually works quite well for the most part.

We don't need him to win selkes, we need him to score.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Although I would never compare him to a Shanahan type, I think he is a lot more aggressive than he gets credit for. He is a big body and he does use it to his advantage. He does like to hit and mix it up a little from time to time, I just think he needs to stay away from the fighting.

I totally agree with your assessment jimmy, he does have a knack for quietly finding the open ice and putting the puck in the net.

[Richdg 267]

He is just like Shanny offensively. Shanny was not a banger, he stayed in good shooting positions so he could shoot. Most of his career he averaged less than 1 hit per game. Which makes sense-you don't want your high end shooters in the corners, you want them in front of the net somewhere to get their shots off. Yes Shanny was much more willing to drop the gloves than Mantha ever has been. But then again Mantha is a better skater than Shanny was.

now who makes it up first? The RW's said all summer that Mantha was going to be given every chance to make the roster coming out of camp. At no point did they ever say that about Pulks. Now Pulks is a RHed shooting winger that scored 30 goals last year. Yet the guy with 0 professional games was going to be given the chance. Why?

I was one and remain a guy that believes if we are going to make a deal, Tatar is the guy to be moved. Value for value. tatar is the most limited overall of all the young F's that have made it to date. That is not saying I dislike him. But to get a legit front of net forward or a good puck moving RHed Dman you have to give up something. No one is going to give us a star for table scraps.

[krsmith17 7,191]

The point was that you originally compared Mantha to Shanahan because of his fighting ability, now you're just comparing them offensively, stating that "Shanny was much more willing to drop the gloves than Mantha ever has been"... My point is that he will not be dropping the gloves very often, if at all at the pro level, and if he does, I'm sure management will have a chat with him. They're not going to want their top prospect in 20 years, risk injury in fighting.

Red Wings management say a lot of things, regarding prospects but everyone knows how they like to develop their players - overripe. And while I do think Mantha will be somewhat of an exception to their rule, I don't think they're in any huge rush to get him in the NHL. Management also said that one of our top defense prospects would be making the team out of camp this year. That never happened. Because they're not ready? Nope. Ouellet is clearly ready and has already passed Kindl and Lashoff on the depth chart. Players have to put their time in with the Red Wings, nothing is ever handed to them, and that philosophy seems to have been working quite well for them. I'm not necessarily saying that Pulkkinen will be called up before Mantha, because I could see it going either way, especially depending on who they're being called up to replace, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you're trying to make it out to be...

[number9 3,297]

He is just like Shanny offensively. Shanny was not a banger, he stayed in good shooting positions so he could shoot. Most of his career he averaged less than 1 hit per game. Which makes sense-you don't want your high end shooters in the corners, you want them in front of the net somewhere to get their shots off. Yes Shanny was much more willing to drop the gloves than Mantha ever has been. But then again Mantha is a better skater than Shanny was.

now who makes it up first? The RW's said all summer that Mantha was going to be given every chance to make the roster coming out of camp. At no point did they ever say that about Pulks. Now Pulks is a RHed shooting winger that scored 30 goals last year. Yet the guy with 0 professional games was going to be given the chance. Why?

I was one and remain a guy that believes if we are going to make a deal, Tatar is the guy to be moved. Value for value. tatar is the most limited overall of all the young F's that have made it to date. That is not saying I dislike him. But to get a legit front of net forward or a good puck moving RHed Dman you have to give up something. No one is going to give us a star for table scraps.

I'd like to see the stat that says shanny averaged one hit a game