GDT 11/5/14--Wings @ Rangers

[Jersey Wing 1,521]

Good point on the road against a good team who plays well at home. Still, as someone pointed out if the Wings had won and MTL lost they'd be tied for first in Conf. I, like many here would like to see a top six scorer added but in the meantime there doesn't appear to be any need to panic or rush into a bad deal. Injuries haven't piled up, certainly like last year, and Jimmy's playing better.

So far so good.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I had to turn the game off a little early last night. Do my eyes deceive me or did Jakub Kindl nab a goal and assist last night?

I hope he keeps that up for about 5 more games so we can trade his ass.

Anybody not on board the "Kindl 4 Prez" bandwagon right now doesn't love this team.

Simple as that.

[GoWings! 179]

I thought Jimmy should've started. That being said, there were more than a few breakaways so I highly doubt Jimmy would've done that much better. 1 or 2 goals every night and a miracle goal in the final minute to tie seems to be the gameplan no matter who the opposition is.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I agree with calling up oullete but that win fix the offense. The defense hasn't been a problem until Quincey went out and we went with kindl and lashoff.

Ah yes, the Kindl-Lashoff pair. What a big problem they are. Let's unpack this a little further. Quincey has been out, and that pair has been together, for three games. We lost all of them. Surely they're to blame right?

Lashoff: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0. On the ice for 1 goal against, and one goal for.

Kindl: 1 goal (powerplay), 1 assist, +/- -1. On the ice for 1 goal against, and no goals for. (Edit: Kindl's goal and assist were on the PP and aren't reflected in the goals for and against I've posted here)

Wow. They're absolutely killing us.

That or they're doing almost EXACTLY what a third pair should, holding their own.

But why don't we scapegoat them instead. It's easier.

Edited November 6, 2014 by kipwinger

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Ah yes, the Kindl-Lashoff pair. What a big problem they are. Let's unpack this a little further. Quincey has been out, and that pair has been together, for three games. We lost all of them. Surely they're to blame right?

Lashoff: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0. On the ice for 1 goal against, and one goal for.

Kindl: 1 goal (powerplay), 1 assist, +/- -1. On the ice for 2 goals against, and one goal for.

Wow. They're absolutely killing us.

That or they're doing almost EXACTLY what a third pair should, holding their own.

But why don't we scapegoat them instead. It's easier.

Every damn time they hit the ice we can't escape our zone, we lose momentum, turnovers start piling up, and Howard/monster have to constantly bail them out. They aren't holding their own, they're getting lucky.

[kipwinger 8,524]

And now, for funsies let's see how the first and second pairs have looked in the three games we lost (that Quincey was out).

Kronwall: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for.

Ericsson: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for.

Dekeyser: 0 goals, 1 assist, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against and one goal for.

Smith: 0 goals, 1 assist, -3: On the ice for four goals against and one goal for.

Conclusion: Losing games is not entirely anybody's fault. However, if we feel absolutely inclined to blame any particular defensive pairing it's got to be the second pair. Kindl and Lashoff have been fine. They're not relied on for much, and they haven't disappointed. Conversely, the second pair has more responsibility (ostensibly because they're better players) and they've s*** the bed for three games.

Every damn time they hit the ice we can't escape our zone, we lose momentum, turnovers start piling up, and Howard/monster have to constantly bail them out. They aren't holding their own, they're getting lucky.

Empirical stats don't back up that assessment. Even if they're getting hemmed into our zone, it hasn't cost us a thing. So who cares? Our second pair is getting scored on at even strength. Not the third. Not a single one of the last three losses has been on their shoulders. That's all I'm saying.

Edited November 6, 2014 by kipwinger

[rick zombo 3,739]

Every damn time they hit the ice we can't escape our zone, we lose momentum, turnovers start piling up, and Howard/monster have to constantly bail them out. They aren't holding their own, they're getting lucky.

This is true. And I agree. Unfortunately, for arguement's sake, corsi doesn't account for damages to team pschye and momentum changes. Stats will always have trouble with this aspect of the game. That's why many NHL management types insist on using the "eyeball" test as well.

Empirical stats don't back up that assessment. Even if they're getting hemmed into our zone, it hasn't cost us a thing. So who cares? Our second pair is getting scored on at even strength. Not the third. Not a single one of the last three losses has been on their shoulders. That's all I'm saying.

This is true as well, and sort of ties in to what I've said above.

For the record, I do feel like this team misses Quincey, who is a definite upgrade over Lashoff.

[kipwinger 8,524]

This is true. And I agree. Unfortunately, for arguement's sake, corsi doesn't account for damages to team pschye and momentum changes. Stats will always have trouble with this aspect of the game. That's why many NHL management types insist on using the "eyeball" test as well.

This is true as well, and sort of ties in to what I've said above.

For the record, I do feel like this team misses Quincey, who is a definite upgrade over Lashoff.

I agree. He's a better player. But since he's been gone Lashoff has done absolutely nothing to cost us points. True, he's done absolutely nothing to contribute either. But that's not really expected out of your 7th defenseman.

I'm just sick of everybody scapegoating bottom pair defensemen and grinders when things aren't their fault. By all mean, crucify them if they're screwing up, but lets be objective about it. Over the last three games Brendan Smith has been our worst defenseman. Clearly. Verifiably. Demonstrably. Yet nobody wants to say so because for whatever reason Brendan gets a pass and Kindl (and Lashoff) suck.

When it's their fault, so say. When it's somebody else's, we should all have the balls to say that too.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I agree. He's a better player. But since he's been gone Lashoff has done absolutely nothing to cost us points. True, he's done absolutely nothing to contribute either. But that's not really expected out of your 7th defenseman.

I'm just sick of everybody scapegoating bottom pair defensemen and grinders when things aren't their fault. By all mean, crucify them if they're screwing up, but lets be objective about it. Over the last three games Brendan Smith has been our worst defenseman. Clearly. Verifiably. Demonstrably. Yet nobody wants to say so because for whatever reason Brendan gets a pass and Kindl (and Lashoff) suck.

When it's their fault, so say. When it's somebody else's, we should all have the balls to say that too.

Well put.

I don't think, at least on paper, that they are any worse than say the Lilja-Lebda 3rd pair during the cup run in 08. The main difference is that those guys played behind a top four of Lidstrom -Rafalski/Kronwall - Stuart (Which is still the best top four we've had in the modern era, imo).

I'm with you mostly. This team's issues aren't with the bottom six forwards or the 3rd pair D. For the third year in a row the problem has been lack of production from the top 6 and an average-at-best top four D.

edit to add: that being said, this team needs every ugrade it can get, and while Lashoff hasn't been costing us games, Quincey does make this team better (I can't believe I'm saying this LOL)

Edited November 6, 2014 by rick zombo

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

I agree. He's a better player. But since he's been gone Lashoff has done absolutely nothing to cost us points. True, he's done absolutely nothing to contribute either. But that's not really expected out of your 7th defenseman.

I'm just sick of everybody scapegoating bottom pair defensemen and grinders when things aren't their fault. By all mean, crucify them if they're screwing up, but lets be objective about it. Over the last three games Brendan Smith has been our worst defenseman. Clearly. Verifiably. Demonstrably. Yet nobody wants to say so because for whatever reason Brendan gets a pass and Kindl (and Lashoff) suck.

When it's their fault, so say. When it's somebody else's, we should all have the balls to say that too.

To be fair Kindl screwed up the change that led to the 2:0 of St.Louis. It's not that he has been good all around while Smith is solely responsible for our GA. The stat you provided are nothing more than the good old +/- which is a very questionable stat imho to measure how good or bad a player did.

That said we had problems making a decent first pass the last few games and I give you that : Smith didn't look good the these games but that can be said about all our D-Man and the team as a whole. You can be Nick Lidstrom, but if your team doesn't skate you'll inevitably produce turnovers (ok, maybe not if your Nick Lidstrom but any other player will) . Smith wasn't notably worse than others especially the sheltered Kindl. I also don't say Kindl sucks, he provides more or less what you'd expect from a 3rd pairing D-Man. The sucking is a team effort so to speak, calling out single players right now is the wrong call in this situation.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Well put.

I don't think, at least on paper, that they are any worse than say the Lilja-Lebda 3rd pair during the cup run in 08. The main difference is that those guys played behind a top four of Lidstrom -Rafalski/Kronwall - Stuart (Which is still the best top four we've had in the modern era, imo).

I'm with you mostly. This team's issues aren't with the bottom six forwards or the 3rd pair D. For the third year in a row the problem has been lack of production from the top 6 and an average-at-best top four D.

edit to add: that being said, this team needs every ugrade it can get, and while Lashoff hasn't been costing us games, Quincey does make this team better (I can't believe I'm saying this LOL)

I think they are definitely worse than Lilja Lebda. Lebda and Kindl are probably fairly equivalent. But Lilja was a much steadier defenseman than Lashoff.

I actually like Lashoff, but he's an inexperienced defenseman who could be a decent bottom pairing guy at best. And to be overly clear, I'm in no way pinning losses on them.

My problem with that bottom pairing is for whatever reason they seem to be a dynamic duo of mistakes together (even relative to an average bottom pairing). More than anything I just want the Wings to get rid of Kindl. If a bottom pairing guy is going to be playing sheltered minutes, I'd rather it be a prospect who could turn into a good NHL defenseman than a 5 year veteran who's never quite put it all together.

And what makes Kindl even more frustrating is he actually has offensive and puck moving skills, which the Wings desperately need from their blueline, but still can't get it figured out.

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

And now, for funsies let's see how the first and second pairs have looked in the three games we lost (that Quincey was out).

Kronwall: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for.

Ericsson: 0 goals, 0 assists, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against, and one goal for.

Dekeyser: 0 goals, 1 assist, +/- 0: On the ice for one goal against and one goal for.

Smith: 0 goals, 1 assist, -2: On the ice for three goals against and one goal for.

Conclusion: Losing games is not entirely anybody's fault. However, if we feel absolutely inclined to blame any particular defensive pairing it's got to be the second pair. Kindl and Lashoff have been fine. They're not relied on for much, and they haven't disappointed. Conversely, the second pair has more responsibility (ostensibly because they're better players) and they've s*** the bed for three games.

Empirical stats don't back up that assessment. Even if they're getting hemmed into our zone, it hasn't cost us a thing. So who cares? Our second pair is getting scored on at even strength. Not the third. Not a single one of the last three losses has been on their shoulders. That's all I'm saying.

Like I Saud they've been getting bailed out, but they are costing us momentum, and while they have not been the sole cause of our woes (where's the offense) and haven't let in as many goals as the second pairing, I was just pointing out that they haven't been helping the team either.

[kipwinger 8,524]

To be fair Kindl screwed up the change that led to the 2:0 of St.Louis. It's not that he has been good all around while Smith is solely responsible for our GA. The stat you provided are nothing more than the good old +/- which is a very questionable stat imho to measure how good or bad a player did.

That said we had problems making a decent first pass the last few games and I give you that : Smith didn't look good the these games but that can be said about all our D-Man and the team as a whole. You can be Nick Lidstrom, but if your team doesn't skate you'll inevitably produce turnovers (ok, maybe not if your Nick Lidstrom but any other player will) . Smith wasn't notably worse than others especially the sheltered Kindl. I also don't say Kindl sucks, he provides more or less what you'd expect from a 3rd pairing D-Man. The sucking is a team effort so to speak, calling out single players right now is the wrong call in this situation.

The stats I provided are not "good old +/-". For instance, in the last three games Smith is a -3. But that obscures the fact that he's been on the ice for 4 goals against. Conversely, Kindl is -1 and has been on the ice for 1 goal against. If you only look at +/- (which I wasn't) then the disparity looks better than it is. Over the last three games Smith got scored on at 4 times the rate Kindl did, not three. The only reason it looks better is because Smith's point came 5 on 5 and Kindl's 2 points came on the powerplay. But the fact of the matter is, Kindl's points to goals against ration is +1 while Smith's is -3 (over the last three games).

Or, in other words. Kindl contributed more to a potential victory, and less to a potential defeat (over those three games). Lashoff was dead even. If there's blame to go around, it's not on them (this time).

Smith is the better player. He just wasn't the better player over the last three games. And he has more responsibility, so he NEEDS to be the better player for our team to be successful (as do all players with bigger roles).

Like I Saud they've been getting bailed out, but they are costing us momentum, and while they have not been the sole cause of our woes (where's the offense) and haven't let in as many goals as the second pairing, I was just pointing out that they haven't been helping the team either.

Smith's four goals against didn't cost us momentum? Dare I say, more momentum? You're just trying to find inventive ways to blame them despite the fact that they've been objectively better for three games. They're not a great pairing. I know. But they haven't cost us s***.

Edit: Lol. I've been selling myself short. Smith was actually on the ice for 4 goals against the last three games. He was on for two in the Buffalo game and he was on the ice for two last night.

Edited November 6, 2014 by kipwinger

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

The stats I provided are not "good old +/-". For instance, in the last three games Smith is a -3. But that obscures the fact that he's been on the ice for 4 goals against. Conversely, Kindl is -1 and has been on the ice for 1 goal against. If you only look at +/- (which I wasn't) then the disparity looks better than it is. Over the last three games Smith got scored on at 4 times the rate Kindl did, not three. The only reason it looks better is because Smith's point came 5 on 5 and Kindl's 2 points came on the powerplay. But the fact of the matter is, Kindl's points to goals against ration is +1 while Smith's is -2 (over the last three games).

Or, in other words. Kindl contributed more to a potential victory, and less to a potential defeat (over those three games). Lashoff was dead even. If there's blame to go around, it's not on them (this time).

Smith is the better player. He just wasn't the better player over the last three games. And he has more responsibility, so he NEEDS to be the better player for our team to be successful (as do all players with bigger roles).

I didn't say the are exactly +/- I said they nothing more than, e.g. are as useless as this stat. For example the afore mentioned St.Louis goal : Kindl changes in the worst possible moment, is therefore off the ice when St.Louis scores. Guess who is the lucky guy on the ice desperately trying to catch the guy Kindl just abandoned ? Right, its Smith who, following your stats, is fully responsible for the goal while Kindl is not. If you can break down every goal and show me that and why Smith f***ed up on any of these I'll be the first who's with you. But your stats are just ridiculously flawed. Just because someone is on the ice doesn't mean he is responsible for the goal against.

And while Smith is the better player he also has to face the tougher opposition while Kindl plays heavily sheltered minutes.

Edited November 6, 2014 by derblaueClaus

[kipwinger 8,524]

I didn't say the are exactly +/- I said they nothing more than, e.g. are as useless as this stat. For example the afore mentioned St.Louis goal : Kindl changes in the worst possible moment, is therefore off the ice when St.Louis scores. Guess who is the lucky guy on the ice desperately trying to catch the guy Kindl just abandoned ? Right, its Smith who, following your stats, is fully responsible for the goal while Kindl is not. If you can break down every goal and show me that and why Smith f***ed up on any of these I'll be the first who's with you. But your stats are just ridiculously flawed. Just because someone is on the ice doesn't mean he is responsible for the goal against.

And while Smith is the better player he also has to face the tougher opposition while Kindl plays heavily sheltered minutes.

First of all, it's not on me to go to ridiculous lengths to prove anything. You want to show why all four goals scored while Smith was on the ice (over the last three games) aren't his fault, by all means go ahead. He was on the ice for 3 goals against during the Buffalo game. Where those Kindl's fault too? You have no idea. You're just defending Smith because (for some reason) you don't like the thought that Kindl can, once in a while, play better than Smith does. He's doing it right now. Get over it.

Secondly, I know Smith and Dekeyser play tougher minutes. But that doesn't make their mistakes less harmful. In fact, it makes them more harmful because when playing against better opponents (or in the defensive zone) your mistakes are MORE likely to end up in the back of the net. Being a better player means Smith gets more opportunity than Kindl or Lashoff. That means more opportunity to succeed AND to fail. For three games our second pair hasn't been succeeding. And that is demonstrably true.

Edited November 6, 2014 by kipwinger

[sjr2012 439]

I agree with calling up oullete but that win fix the offense. The defense hasn't been a problem until Quincey went out and we went with kindl and lashoff.

damn good point i just have no idea what else we can do except make a trade its going to take balls on our gms part because he doesn't want to give up anything but if he wants results he has to do something relying on alfie and Weiss is not going to do it being as one will be injured all year and the other retire

[rick zombo 3,739]

No hearing for Franzen. Could the league be feeling a little guilty about the constant s***ty ass reffing the Wings have been subjected to?

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/red-wings-rangers-tailings-no-hearing-for-franzen-frustrating-issues-gustav

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I still can't believe Cleary scored in his first game back.

Is that why the board is so quiet today? Stunned silence?

No hearing for Franzen. Could the league be feeling a little guilty about the constant s***ty ass reffing the Wings have been subjected to?

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/red-wings-rangers-tailings-no-hearing-for-franzen-frustrating-issues-gustav

Franzen's pretty lucky to not even get a phonecall. I didn't think he'd get suspended but I could've seen a fine.

He's gotten away with a few pretty good cheapshots over the years.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I still can't believe Cleary scored in his first game back.

Is that why the board is so quiet today? Stunned silence?

Franzen's pretty lucky to not even get a phonecall. I didn't think he'd get suspended but I could've seen a fine.

He's gotten away with a few pretty good cheapshots over the years.

This board has been quiet lately.

Even when we were winning I didn't know whether my internet was messing up or what was going on.

But I'm thinking our make up calla are coming from the league instead of from the refs in Game.

There were more than a few calls that were baffling last night, and (tin foil hat on) weve had a lot of bad calls go against us this year.

Edited November 6, 2014 by jimmyemeryhunter

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

First of all, it's not on me to go to ridiculous lengths to prove anything. You want to show why all four goals scored while Smith was on the ice (over the last three games) aren't his fault, by all means go ahead. He was on the ice for 3 goals against during the Buffalo game. Where those Kindl's fault too? You have no idea. You're just defending Smith because (for some reason) you don't like the thought that Kindl can, once in a while, play better than Smith does. He's doing it right now. Get over it.

Secondly, I know Smith and Dekeyser play tougher minutes. But that doesn't make their mistakes less harmful. In fact, it makes them more harmful because when playing against better opponents (or in the defensive zone) your mistakes are MORE likely to end up in the back of the net. Being a better player means Smith gets more opportunity than Kindl or Lashoff. That means more opportunity to succeed AND to fail. For three games our second pair hasn't been succeeding. And that is demonstrably true.

Of course it is on you. You are the one who has to prove that his statistic Player one ice = his fault is true. You want to show us that Kindl plays better right now than Smith despite the latter one being on the second pair with heavier minutes. I already made my point why your stat is flawed. And I'm not defending Smith at all. I'm just saying both and with them the whole team don't play the best hockey at the moment. There isn't any bias from my side. However you are the one who already had several arguments about why Smith isn't as good as some make him.

Yes, kip, but thats not the point. You were saying that Kindl looked as good as Smith therefore Kindl has to play better. Which would be true if Kindl had faced the same kind of opposition Smith and DeKeyser are facing and Kindl simply hadn't. Even better : Kindls positives, the goal and assist, happened on a PP while Smith still waits to get the chance with a man advantage. Talking about more opportunities to succeed. All this proves my point: Kindl is much more sheltered and despite this not looking better than Smith or any other player. What does it tell us about who plays worse hockey at the moment ?

Edited November 6, 2014 by derblaueClaus

[kipwinger 8,524]

Of course it is on you. You are the one who has to prove that his statistic Player one ice = his fault is true. You want to show us that Kindl plays better right now than Smith despite the latter one being on the second pair with heavier minutes. I already made my point why your stat is flawed. And I'm not defending Smith at all. I'm just saying both and with them the whole team don't play the best hockey at the moment. There isn't any bias from my side. However you are the one who already had several arguments about why Smith isn't as good as some make him.

Yes, kip, but thats not the point. You were saying that Kindl looked as good as Smith therefore Kindl has to play better. Which would be true if Kindl had faced the same kind of opposition Smith and DeKeyser are facing and Kindl simply isn't. Even better : Kindls positives, the goal and assist, happened on a PP while Smith still waits to get the chance with a man advantage. Talking about more opportunitys to succeed. All this proves my point: Kindl is much more sheltered and despite this not looking better than Smith or any other player. What does it tell us about who plays worse hockey at the moment ?

Yer right. Kindl sux! Durr Hurr.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, you still haven't addressed derblaue's main point, the same point I was going to bring up before I read further... Kindl was the reason for at least one of the goals that Smith was on the ice for. I remember specifically the Rangers second goal last night Kindl made a terrible decision to change and Smith jumped on and was way behind St. Louis only to watch him score on a clear cut breakaway...

[kipwinger 8,524]

Kip, you still haven't addressed derblaue's main point, the same point I was going to bring up before I read further... Kindl was the reason for at least one of the goals that Smith was on the ice for. I remember specifically the Rangers second goal last night Kindl made a terrible decision to change and Smith jumped on and was way behind St. Louis only to watch him score on a clear cut breakaway...

Jesus Christ. Do you two think that Smith only got a minus last night because of a bad change by Kindl? He was on the ice for two goals against last night. He was a -1 because he got one back on the Cleary goal. Smith got caught pinching on the Stempniak goal.

Ok, here's a link to last night's highlights. You'll notice that Kindl is on the ice for exactly two goals last night. His, and Tatar's. You'll also notice Smith on the ice for three goals, St. Louis', Cleary's, and Stempniaks'. So even if you want to blame the St. Louis goal on Kindl (which is dubious because the forwards were changing too and there were only 3 Red Wings on the ice when St. Louis received the pass (:30 on video)), Smith's still on the hook for the bad pinch that led to the 2 on 1 on the Stempniak goal (freeze the video as 1:11 to see Smith getting beat).

I can do the same with the Buffalo game as well, Smith was on the ice and involved in both goals against that night too. In the last three games there have been 5 even strength goals against. Smith was on the ice for 4 of them, and has contributed an assist. Kindl was on the ice for one of them (an empty netter against Ottawa) and contributed 2 points toward wins. So even if you want to give one of Smith's minuses to Kindl for last night, you still have to admit Kindl's been better because the only other goal scored on him for three games was an empty netter at the end of the Ottawa game

Is it really that hard for people to admit that for three games (that's all I'm talking about), Kindl has done his job well and Smith has performed his job less well? Is thef****** sky going to fall? It doesn't mean Kindl's a better player. He's just fulfilled his responsibilities better for three games. That's it. Why is that so hard?

Link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400564091

Edit: Slow that video down and you'll notice that Kindl is off the ice, and Smith is on the ice before the pass to St. Louis out of the defensive zone is even made.

Edited November 7, 2014 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

Relax man. I'm just pointing out on that one play, it absolutely WAS Kindl's f*** up, not Smith's. Slow the play down all you want, it was a terrible change (and yes, I'm aware it wasn't just Kindl) and Smith had no chance there. I'll admit that Smith f***ed up on the third goal because of an untimely pinch, terrible read. I'll also say that I have no issue with Kindl. He has played a lot better than anyone has expected and that's great for us. I also think Lashoff is a great 7th defenseman. When he does get into games, he's solid. He's not going to put up points and he's not expected to but he doesn't usually hurt the team either. In saying that I would love to see Ouellet up at some point really soon.

Also, I'm not sure where I read you say this, if it was here or another thread, but I 100% agree that there is way too much blind hate on certain players. A lot of people on here are watching the games and posting on here for the sole purpose to ***** and complain about the same players every night. Every night it seems to be one of the whipping boys fault, no matter how well they play. And lately all the usual whipping boys have been playing great, but yet they're still to blame...

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Dan Cleary forever everyone, that is all.