joesuffP 1,746 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Smith's pinch at the red line was the direct result of a goal. Clear 2 on 1. Smith had a pretty terrible game last night Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derblaueClaus 1,668 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Jesus Christ. Do you two think that Smith only got a minus last night because of a bad change by Kindl? He was on the ice for two goals against last night. He was a -1 because he got one back on the Cleary goal. Smith got caught pinching on the Stempniak goal. Ok, here's a link to last night's highlights. You'll notice that Kindl is on the ice for exactly two goals last night. His, and Tatar's. You'll also notice Smith on the ice for three goals, St. Louis', Cleary's, and Stempniaks'. So even if you want to blame the St. Louis goal on Kindl (which is dubious because the forwards were changing too and there were only 3 Red Wings on the ice when St. Louis received the pass (:30 on video)), Smith's still on the hook for the bad pinch that led to the 2 on 1 on the Stempniak goal (freeze the video as 1:11 to see Smith getting beat). I can do the same with the Buffalo game as well, Smith was on the ice and involved in both goals against that night too. In the last three games there have been 5 even strength goals against. Smith was on the ice for 4 of them, and has contributed an assist. Kindl was on the ice for one of them (an empty netter against Ottawa) and contributed 2 points toward wins. So even if you want to give one of Smith's minuses to Kindl for last night, you still have to admit Kindl's been better because the only other goal scored on him for three games was an empty netter at the end of the Ottawa game Is it really that hard for people to admit that for three games (that's all I'm talking about), Kindl has done his job well and Smith has performed his job less well? Is thef****** sky going to fall? It doesn't mean Kindl's a better player. He's just fulfilled his responsibilities better for three games. That's it. Why is that so hard? Link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400564091 Edit: Slow that video down and you'll notice that Kindl is off the ice, and Smith is on the ice before the pass to St. Louis out of the defensive zone is even made. Thank you kip, the bold part is exactly what I'm trying to say the whole time : It makes no sense singling out certain players because the whole team plays sloppy. And we all agree that Smith's play on NYR third goal wasn't exactly what you'd call a strike of genius. But despite this I also don't think that Smith played worse than Kindl over the last few games for the reasons I already stated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
e_prime 1,936 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Jesus Christ. Do you two think that Smith only got a minus last night because of a bad change by Kindl? He was on the ice for two goals against last night. He was a -1 because he got one back on the Cleary goal. Smith got caught pinching on the Stempniak goal. Ok, here's a link to last night's highlights. You'll notice that Kindl is on the ice for exactly two goals last night. His, and Tatar's. You'll also notice Smith on the ice for three goals, St. Louis', Cleary's, and Stempniaks'. So even if you want to blame the St. Louis goal on Kindl (which is dubious because the forwards were changing too and there were only 3 Red Wings on the ice when St. Louis received the pass (:30 on video)), Smith's still on the hook for the bad pinch that led to the 2 on 1 on the Stempniak goal (freeze the video as 1:11 to see Smith getting beat). I can do the same with the Buffalo game as well, Smith was on the ice and involved in both goals against that night too. In the last three games there have been 5 even strength goals against. Smith was on the ice for 4 of them, and has contributed an assist. Kindl was on the ice for one of them (an empty netter against Ottawa) and contributed 2 points toward wins. So even if you want to give one of Smith's minuses to Kindl for last night, you still have to admit Kindl's been better because the only other goal scored on him for three games was an empty netter at the end of the Ottawa game Is it really that hard for people to admit that for three games (that's all I'm talking about), Kindl has done his job well and Smith has performed his job less well? Is thef****** sky going to fall? It doesn't mean Kindl's a better player. He's just fulfilled his responsibilities better for three games. That's it. Why is that so hard? Link: http://espn.go.com/nhl/recap?gameId=400564091 Edit: Slow that video down and you'll notice that Kindl is off the ice, and Smith is on the ice before the pass to St. Louis out of the defensive zone is even made. THIS. RIGHT HERE. -voice of reason. ...b-b-b-b-but Smith is GOLD and Kindl is s***e. I must, must, must let you know. NO MATTER WHAT! - voice of LGW* *I know, not everyone, but plenty of people that need to take the blinders off! Edited November 7, 2014 by e_prime Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hockeymom1960 5,107 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 I think a lot of ppl need to chill out! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sjr2012 439 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 I still can't believe Cleary scored in his first game back. Is that why the board is so quiet today? Stunned silence? Franzen's pretty lucky to not even get a phonecall. I didn't think he'd get suspended but I could've seen a fine. He's gotten away with a few pretty good cheapshots over the years. I think it might be work I work midnights so sometimes its hard to get on if im doing s*** outside the office if im in my office than I watch online Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DatsyukianDekes 2,428 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 I think a lot of ppl need to chill out! Too late we already hit the panic button. Push it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
derblaueClaus 1,668 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 I think a lot of ppl need to chill out! Don't worry, kip and I are pretty calm. We just disagree on certain minor things. The forums would be very boring without arguments like this. 1 T.Low reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VM1138 1,921 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Dan Cleary forever everyone, that is all. That goal better not convince Babcock to put Cleary in the top 6 forever again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Well for what it's worth Kindl leads the Wings D in +- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 Well for what it's worth Kindl leads the Wings D in +- Which is a great example of how flawed that stat can be. Kindl makes a bad line change that results in a goal, but Lashoff and Smith get hit with the minus. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy Pred 48 337 Report post Posted November 7, 2014 but Lids was a career +450 harold, surely it cant be the same for him? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted November 8, 2014 but Lids was a career +450 harold, surely it cant be the same for him? A sample size of 1,564 helps to smooth out some of the variables. But he did win his last Norris with a -2, so yet another great example of the stat's extremely limited usefulness at indicating anything about a player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyemeryhunter 2,747 Report post Posted November 8, 2014 A sample size of 1,564 helps to smooth out some of the variables. But he did win his last Norris with a -2, so yet another great example of the stat's extremely limited usefulness at indicating anything about a player. Plus/minus is an extremely misleading stat, but sometimes it is a pretty good indicator of their play.There's just so many damn variables with it, and with all the advanced stats that are coming out one will eventually separate itself as a more reliable stat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted November 8, 2014 Plus/minus is an extremely misleading stat, but sometimes it is a pretty good indicator of their play. There's just so many damn variables with it, and with all the advanced stats that are coming out one will eventually separate itself as a more reliable stat. I think many advanced stats can be extremely misleading as well. They have to be looked at together and with the eyeball test. Plus-minus I think is really only useful then you're comparing players on one team. If one has an extremely high or extremely low +/-, there's something going on there. But it still doesn't say much beyond that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Echolalia 2,961 Report post Posted November 8, 2014 I think many advanced stats can be extremely misleading as well. They have to be looked at together and with the eyeball test. Plus-minus I think is really only useful then you're comparing players on one team. If one has an extremely high or extremely low +/-, there's something going on there. But it still doesn't say much beyond that. It's also important to keep track of how the players are being used. When the coach is only putting you on the ice for offensive zone faceoffs, your +/- may be skewed in your favor. Meanwhile, the guys who are getting all the defensive zone faceoffs have many more opportunities to develop a lower +/-. Likewise, as a 4th liner, your goal isn't necessarily to score goals, so they play more defensive minded. More or less if you can get it to center ice and dump it in, it's a successful shift, so I would expect to see +/- closer to 0 for grinders than for top liners, whom are expected to take more chances and score (also more vulnerable to goals against in many cases). These guys I would expect to see more of a variation.So I don't know if it's fair to use +/- as a main argument to compare players who are used for different roles. 2 derblaueClaus and haroldsnepsts reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
