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nyqvististhefuture

Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

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Guest DeGraa55

Helm IS NOT a good player. His hockey intangibles are terrible.

He is just super fast so he is able to keep pressurne on the opposition and that's also what makes him so good defensively.

He isn't a center piece of any trade he is that second or third guy you throw in.

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Kip, I cannot cut and paste for some reason, but go to the "oiler's presser" thread and look at post #130,it has a link to a report talking about Hall being trade bait and they use the term uncoachable.

I agree with you, a trade proposal from Detroit like mine will never be accepted by EDM, but you will be surprised if he is traded, it will be for something very similar or less from another team. If Helm is not good enough to be a cornerstone in a trade including another young real good player and a top prospect, then folks around here need to get off the Helm street and stop yapping how great he is and we shouldn't trade him. He is either great or he isn't. Either way, IMO, Sheahan and Glendening are better and have made Helm a very tradable asset. If Helm is one of the best defensive forwards out there, then he could be a cornerstone in a trade to a team that has a plethora of offensive talent, but are in dire need for a shutdown center. If they are wanting to move Hall, why not get something they need. We don't need to trade Helm either, but we lack that 80 point guy right now and we have to trade something of value to us for something we need. Besides, Edmonton has tons of "kids" with offensive talent and potential, why would they trade away Hall just to get another "kid" in Mantha that is in the same group as Hall? They may as well just keep Hall, he is already proven. Makes more sense to trade away an asset they won't miss too much for something that they need to make their team more well-rounded.

Edited by LeftWinger

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I agree with a couple of your points. Largely that Mantha is untouchable, and the previously mentioned trade packages are overkill. But I disagree with a couple of things.

1) When has Hall every been considered "uncoachable" and who made the claim? I've never heard that. As far as I knew, he was the only one of their young kids who didn't have an attitude problem. I've heard that about Yakupov, RNH, and Eberle (to a lesser extent), but not Hall.

Here's one of the articles about hall being uncoachable. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/taylor-hall-is-un-coachable--will-be-on-trade-block--report-000824459.html

Helm IS NOT a good player. His hockey intangibles are terrible.

He is just super fast so he is able to keep pressurne on the opposition and that's also what makes him so good defensively.

He isn't a center piece of any trade he is that second or third guy you throw in.

You say he's not a good player, then describe three ways he's a good player.

Are you trolling?

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter

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Another thing Kip, Nyquist is on par to be just as good as Hall this season. He has more goals than Hall this year, more PP goals, and is only a few points behind him. If we are trading value for value/potential, Nyquist for Hall should be a straight up trade. And Edmonton would be getting the deal because Hall makes $6M and Nyquist is still sub $1M, granted he is due a significant raise, but not to $6M.

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Another thing Kip, Nyquist is on par to be just as good as Hall this season. He has more goals than Hall this year, more PP goals, and is only a few points behind him. If we are trading value for value/potential, Nyquist for Hall should be a straight up trade. And Edmonton would be getting the deal because Hall makes $6M and Nyquist is still sub $1M, granted he is due a significant raise, but not to $6M.

I stand corrected on the "uncoachable" comments. Dreger made them, and while they may or may not be true, I've relied on Dreger's analysis in the past and would be a hypocrite if I ran you down for doing it now.

As far as Nyquist vs. Hall. Hall is, and will continue to be the better player. The fact that they momentarily have similar point totals doesn't really mean too much. I like Nyquist fine, and I see no reason to run him down, but he's simply not the better player.

Edited by kipwinger

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I've heard that Hall walks into bars in Edmonton and literally says "Who's gonna F*** me tonight???"

Forgot where I heard this, heard it like a year ago, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. He's probably the biggest star in the entire city.

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I've heard that Hall walks into bars in Edmonton and literally says "Who's gonna F*** me tonight???"

Forgot where I heard this, heard it like a year ago, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. He's probably the biggest star in the entire city.

Wouldn't you if you were him?

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Is it really that hard to compare Nyquist to Hall?

Even last season Nyquist had 1 more goal than Hall, in 20 less games. Hall had more assists because he has more goal scorer's around him than Nyquist does. Thus far this season, Nyquist has 6 more goals and 1 more point than Hall. I would say if Nyquist was a one year wonder, you'd have an argument that he is nowhere as good as Hall, but if Nyquist would have played 75 games last season (as much as Hall) he would have had 63 points to Hall's 80, again due to the more talent around him in EDM. Plus Hall in a bonafide top line player while Nyquist went from line 3 to line 1 back to line 3 day in and day out. Am I saying that right now Nyquist is just as dynamic or a game changer as Hall is....maybe not, but thus far in his short career, Nyquist is proving that he is another later round gem that is hanging tough with high draft picks.

and you guys know me, I am a diehard North American supporter. I am defending Nyquist over Hall, not because he is a Red Wing, but because he is keeping pace with a 1st overall draft pick and doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

Edited by LeftWinger

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and in the same breath, those of you who don'tthink Helm, Smith and Pulks are anywhere near worth Taylor Hall, are saying Hall is worth Nyquist, Mantha, Dekeyser and a 1st round draft pick... :hysterical:

at least Helm, Smith, Pulks is more realistic. You will be surprised if he is traded what Edmonton gets back.

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Nobody would get that. Think of all the high profile players that get traded, and NONE of them went for a package of a teams best young scorer and two top prospects. None of Spezza, Kesler, Ryan, Seguin, Nash, Gaborik, Iginla, Carter, etc. etc. etc. moved for a package like that. None. So why would anybody think that's what it would take to get Hall? Because he's so much better? He isn't.

Everybody always thinks that to get a good player the Wings would have to give the world. But the very fact that a guy is being traded means his value is diminished. The only guys that would require Nyquist, Mantha, Mrazek TOO START are truly elite guys (Toews, Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos). And those guys don't get traded.

Unless you're one of those who consider Mantha and Mrazek as sure-thing future stars, that package is not all that different from Carter to CBJ, nor too different from the Kessel or Seguin deals (value-wise). Not really that much more than Ott gave up for Ryan either.

Sure, it's not uncommon for a good player to go cheaper than that, but it's not that outrageous for a young star either.

I still say it's just not the kind of package Edm would be looking for. They already have plenty of young players with uncertain futures. It's not a typical sell-everything-for-kids rebuild situation. I could see something like the Nash deal, couple good roster players in their prime to balance out the lineup, plus a little extra. Or I could see a Seguin-type deal where they try to get a proven veteran star. Or maybe try to land a stud goalie.

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I've heard that Hall walks into bars in Edmonton and literally says "Who's gonna F*** me tonight???"

Forgot where I heard this, heard it like a year ago, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. He's probably the biggest star in the entire city.

I heard last time the Pens were there Crosby stood up and yelled "me! Me!"

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As good as Nyquist is Hall is in a different class, the guy has no help in Edmonton, plays for his 5 coach in only 4 years that's tough no matter what.

Hall is one of the best wingers in the game give him a great center and the guy who's put up huge numbers. If other teams want they'll have to pay a lot for him.. If I'm MacT and Hall only nets me Smith, Pulkinen and an unproven goaltender I'll simply look somewhere else. Good that people brought up the Seguin trade I think the trade did set a precedent on how to not act.

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Unless you're one of those who consider Mantha and Mrazek as sure-thing future stars, that package is not all that different from Carter to CBJ, nor too different from the Kessel or Seguin deals (value-wise). Not really that much more than Ott gave up for Ryan either.

Sure, it's not uncommon for a good player to go cheaper than that, but it's not that outrageous for a young star either.

I still say it's just not the kind of package Edm would be looking for. They already have plenty of young players with uncertain futures. It's not a typical sell-everything-for-kids rebuild situation. I could see something like the Nash deal, couple good roster players in their prime to balance out the lineup, plus a little extra. Or I could see a Seguin-type deal where they try to get a proven veteran star. Or maybe try to land a stud goalie.

That's a legit point, and admittedly I do consider Mantha and Mrazek sure-thing future stars. I base that assumption off two things, A) they've excelled at every single level they've played at, and B) our organization is excellent at prospect development. I can only compare them on their body of work so far, and in every way they've been exceptional.

I heard last time the Pens were there Crosby stood up and yelled "me! Me!"

Oh, I get it, because he's a homosexual. Hilarious.

Edited by kipwinger

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Here is an interesting article up about this:

http://thehockeywriters.com/trade-talk-shopping-taylor-hall/

They give a proposal from a few teams, and I think this is much more accurate then the extreme's on both ends posted in this thread.

For Detroit, here is their proposal and analysis:

To Detroit Red Wings = Taylor Hall and Jeff Petry

To Edmonton Oilers = Riley Sheahan, Anthony Mantha, Teemu Pulkkinen and Ryan Sproul

ANALYSIS: There is both quantity and quality in this return package. Sheahan is a top-nine centre with size, Mantha is one of the best power-forward prospects in the league, Pulkkinen is leading the AHL in scoring and a sniper at that level, and Sproul is a gifted offensive defenceman. Detroit is the only team in the league that could afford to move four top prospects like that without totally depleting its pipeline. The Red Wings know Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg don’t have many years left, not to mention coach Mike Babcock’s contract is expiring, so they might be willing to go all-in for another Cup run. Adding Hall up front would be huge and Petry would fit the bill as that right-handed defenceman Detroit has been searching for, plus he’s a Michigan native who would almost certainly re-sign with the Red Wings.

Edited by kliq

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kliq, I agree with about 99% of your posts but I can't disagree more on that being a "much more accurate" trade proposal... I would lose my sh!t if that trade were to happen. We just lost one of my favorite young Wings (Sheahan), my (everyone's) favorite prospect (Mantha), one of the top players in the American League (Pulkkinen), and my favorite defense prospect (Sproul). Maybe we should add in Mrazek and Scrivens to top it all off. That trade would be absolute robbery by Edmonton in my opinion.

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kliq - I know that is not your trade proposal, but OMG! NO!NO!NO!NO! If the "experts" think that is fair trade value, then f*** Taylor Hall! Who the f*** is the author of that article thinking that is fair trade return? Holy s***! I wouldn't trade that package for Shea Weber, let alone Taylor Hall. These hockey writers are delusional! Listen, I know my trade was low, and I did admit that it would never happen, but really? REALLY?!?! We aren't trading for Stampkos here. I am floored! If Holland even gave one inch of a thought to trade those 4 guys, he should be drawn and quartered! Then stoned, caned, whipped and then hanged.

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Here is an interesting article up about this:

http://thehockeywriters.com/trade-talk-shopping-taylor-hall/

They give a proposal from a few teams, and I think this is much more accurate then the extreme's on both ends posted in this thread.

For Detroit, here is their proposal and analysis:

To Detroit Red Wings = Taylor Hall and Jeff Petry

To Edmonton Oilers = Riley Sheahan, Anthony Mantha, Teemu Pulkkinen and Ryan Sproul

ANALYSIS: There is both quantity and quality in this return package. Sheahan is a top-nine centre with size, Mantha is one of the best power-forward prospects in the league, Pulkkinen is leading the AHL in scoring and a sniper at that level, and Sproul is a gifted offensive defenceman. Detroit is the only team in the league that could afford to move four top prospects like that without totally depleting its pipeline. The Red Wings know Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg don’t have many years left, not to mention coach Mike Babcock’s contract is expiring, so they might be willing to go all-in for another Cup run. Adding Hall up front would be huge and Petry would fit the bill as that right-handed defenceman Detroit has been searching for, plus he’s a Michigan native who would almost certainly re-sign with the Red Wings.

Good Ole JR 1

...for Edmonton

kliq, I agree with about 99% of your posts but I can't disagree more on that being a "much more accurate" trade proposal... I would lose my s*** if that trade were to happen. We just lost one of my favorite young Wings (Sheahan), my (everyone's) favorite prospect (Mantha), one of the top players in the American League (Pulkkinen), and my favorite defense prospect (Sproul). Maybe we should add in Mrazek and Scrivens to top it all off. That trade would be absolute robbery by Edmonto in my opinion.

Robbery by Edmonton and losing our collective s*** isn't the half of it...

I like how this proposal was written pretty much as a sales pitch for Detroit acquiring Petry... when the real piece in that trade would be Hall.

...but sure, let's trade away our third best center (behind Z and Dats) our first bonafied sniper we've drafted in years, a budding prospect who's lighting it up in the AHL, and the guy who's arguably the next D call-up behind XO -- for a guy who's a secondary trade piece (such as say... Helm or Kindl would be in any trade put together by us) in Petry and a guy who's "uncoachable." Sure. That makes sense.

Also, why does every single trade proposal have to include the fact that Z and Dats don't have that many years left and Babcock might not return to the team. Nof****** s***. Does that mean we should be desperate to acquire pieces that aren't necessarily needed? Hell no. Petry isn't a top pairing D-man. We shouldn't even consider getting him unless Edmonton is willing to take Kindl going back the other way. Giving up three solid forwards in exchange for Hall isn't worth it.

Also krsmith. kilq didn't write the proposal... just posted it.

Edited by e_prime

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kliq, I agree with about 99% of your posts but I can't disagree more on that being a "much more accurate" trade proposal... I would lose my s*** if that trade were to happen. We just lost one of my favorite young Wings (Sheahan), my (everyone's) favorite prospect (Mantha), one of the top players in the American League (Pulkkinen), and my favorite defense prospect (Sproul). Maybe we should add in Mrazek and Scrivens to top it all off. That trade would be absolute robbery by Edmonton in my opinion.

lol no worries. When I say this is an accurate proposal, I dont mean this is what I would do, I mean this is what I think it would take to get Hall. I dont think Holland would ever give all this up for him.

But I guess you never know, I wouldn't think Seguin would have gone for as little as he did, but he did.

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