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nyqvististhefuture

Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

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I think realistically were gonna end up going for a low cost veteran d like josh gorges

Also won't happen since we have a ton of depth upfront but if he's getting traded and won't cost a lot I'd go for chris neil , not as young anymore but he's the type of guy we'd need in the playoffs and hopefully would help give us a run like dallas drake did in 08

Gorges is nothing like what we need.

Chris Neil is not what we need... but I get it...the mythical, the immortal. DALLAS DRAKE.

Look, I'm not going to try to say that he wasn't helpful, but lets not pretend that adding one gritty veteran is what puts a team over the top.

How many times, with how many teams is a depth, veteran grit type player added to a team and it does NOTHING for them?

More often than the adding of such player does. Plain and simple. So let's wash away the pretense of this idea.

HATE THE DRAKE.

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The thing is, where most fans and even a lot of GM's look at what will benefit the team this season, Ken Holland is looking at this season, as well as 5+ years from now.

Ken Holland traded a first-round pick for Kyle Quincey.

Ken Holland threw crazy money at Zach Parise and Ryan Suter. Had we signed them, "5+ years from now" wouldn't have been a thing anymore. We would've spent the duration of those enormous contracts living year-to-year, selling off young, homegrown assets when they became too expensive to hold on to. (Not necessarily saying it wouldn't have been worth it. Just saying.)

Ken Holland traded one of our better prospects and a second-round pick for a rental so that we could limp into the playoffs and keep The Streak alive.

Ken Holland courted Stephane Robidas, who was injured at the time and, as he's failed to establish himself as a regular on the Maple Leafs' blue line, is pretty clearly washed up.

Ken Holland has pursued Rick Nash, Alex Edler, Jarome Iginla, and probably every other big name under the sun. Eventually, we're going to land one of those big names. Because, at some point, you have to. We added Rafalski in the summer of '07 and Stuart in February of '08. The Kings added Williams and Richards and Carter, and then Gaborik. The Blackhawks added Sharp and Oduya and Hossa.

That's half the reason why you stockpile assets in the first place - so that you can trade them. You don't wait to see how each and every one of your promising prospects pans out. If you have your seven D slots filled, and you've got as many as five really good D prospects in the pipeline, and you're a Keith Yandle away from being a Cup favorite, and Keith Yandle is - for the first time ever - known to be available, and you have three more years left with Datsyuk...do you really say, "Well, we have to think about 5+ years from now"? I mean, sure, of course the future's a consideration. But, um, I'm personally not willing to wait 3-to-5 years to see if one of our prospects (at least two of whom inevitably won't be Red Wings, if only because we're not going to have enough room) becomes as good and valuable as Yandle is right now. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough and doesn't produce enough offense. Smith isn't producing. Ouellet doesn't have Yandle's offensive upside. Marchenko is a shutdown defenseman. Sproul is a couple years away from being a regular, never mind an impact player. You're telling me we can't afford to part with any of these players, even if we're getting a top-pairing defenseman who can score 50 points for the scoring-challenged Coyotes?

We need a Rafalski, and we need him while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still dominant players. We're going to have to give to get him. If we're going to wait to see if one of our prospects becomes a Rafalski, we're taking a bigger risk than the one we'd be taking if we acquired that player. Because, we don't know where we're going to be 5+ years from now (though, we do know Datsyuk will be gone and Zetterberg will be a shell of the player we have today and Nyquist and Tatar and DeKeyser will be making serious money). I'm not saying we should trade one of our untouchables. I'm assuming we can add a Yandle without having to part with one of our crown jewels. Which is one of the perks of having a ton of assets. You can afford to part with a couple pieces. Pulkkinen isn't a key roster player for us right now, nor is Jurco, nor is Smith, nor is Ouellet, nor is Marchenko, nor is Sproul, nor is the pimple-faced 18-year-old we'd draft with our mid-to-late first-round pick. Remove two or three of these pieces and we're still a contender, and our future is still extremely bright, especially with a top-end defenseman in the prime of his career being added to the fold.

We're contenders. Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall and Nyquist and Tatar and Sheahan and DeKeyser have all avoided major injury this season. The Eastern Conference crown has never been so up-for-grabs. We should make a push. Why say, "Well, it's great that we're contenders, but what about 5+ years from now?" Well...maybe we're contenders 5+ years from now. But...we're contenders...right now...? I'm not talking about selling the farm. I'm talking about moving a D prospect plus Pulkkinen/Jurco. If that's completely out of the question, then we're never going to make a meaningful trade and this team is never going to reach its full potential. We draft and develop well, but not well enough that we can say, "Y'know what, let's try to win with an entirely homegrown roster." Why would we make that a thing? Even if it's possible, it's certainly not realistic. Every Cup-winning team that has ever been has needed some outside help.

Edited by Dabura

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FWIW: Buffalo scouting GRs

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/buffalo-sabres-scouting-grand-rapids-griffins

Elliotte Friedman was on Calgary’s Sportsnet 960 on Friday morning.

On what he’s working on for Saturday:

“A lot of the teams are finishing up their scouting meetings. I understand that Buffalo has been scouting Grand Rapids, which is Detroit’s American Hockey League team, quite a bit. So who knows what’s going on there. But a few people who have been through and around Grand Rapids have been saying they’ve seen a lot of Buffalo guys there. In the past, the Sabres and Red Wings have kind of been linked on talks, so you never know what that’s about.”

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Ken Holland traded a first-round pick for Kyle Quincey.

Ken Holland threw crazy money at Zach Parise and Ryan Suter. Had we signed them, "5+ years from now" wouldn't have been a thing anymore. We would've spent the remainder of those enormous contracts living year-to-year, selling off young, homegrown assets when they became too expensive to hold on to. (Not necessarily saying it wouldn't have been worth it. Just saying.)

Ken Holland traded one of our better prospects and a second-round pick for a rental so that we could limp into the playoffs and keep The Streak alive.

Ken Holland courted Stephane Robidas, who was injured at the time and, as he's failed to establish himself as a regular on the Maple Leafs' blue line, is pretty clearly washed up.

Ken Holland has pursued Rick Nash, Alex Edler, Jarome Iginla, and probably every other big name under the sun. Eventually, we're going to land one of those big names. Because, at some point, you have to. We added Rafalski in the summer of '07 and Stuart in February of '08. The Kings added Williams and Richards and Carter, and then Gaborik. The Blackhawks added Sharp and Oduya and Hossa.

That's half the reason why you stockpile assets in the first place - so that you can trade them. You don't wait to see how each and every one of your promising prospects pans out. If you have your seven D slots filled, and you've got as many as five really good D prospects in the pipeline, and you're a Keith Yandle away from being a Cup favorite, and Keith Yandle is - for the first time ever - known to be available, and you have three more years left with Datsyuk...do you really say, "Well, we have to think about 5+ years from now"? I mean, sure, of course the future's a consideration. But, um, I'm personally not willing to wait 3-to-5 years to see if one of our prospects (at least two of whom inevitably won't be Red Wings, if only because we're not going to have enough room) becomes as good and valuable as Yandle is right now. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough and doesn't produce enough offense. Smith isn't producing. Ouellet doesn't have Yandle's offensive upside. Marchenko is a shutdown defenseman. Sproul is a couple years away from being a regular, never mind an impact player. You're telling me we can't afford to part with any of these players, even if we're getting a top-pairing defenseman who can score 50 points for the scoring-challenged Coyotes?

We need a Rafalski, and we need him while Datsyuk and Zetterberg are still dominant players. We're going to have to give to get him. If we're going to wait to see if one of our prospects becomes a Rafalski, we're taking a bigger risk than the one we'd be taking if we acquired that player. Because, we don't know where we're going to be 5+ years from now (though, we do know Datsyuk will be gone and Zetterberg will be a shell of the player we have today). I'm not saying we should trade one of our untouchables. I'm assuming we can add a Yandle without having to part with one of our crown jewels. Which is one of the perks of having a ton of assets. You can afford to part with a couple pieces. Pulkkinen isn't a key roster player for us right now, nor is Jurco, nor is Smith, nor is Ouellet, nor is Marchenko, nor is Sproul, nor is the pimple-faced 18-year-old we'd draft with our mid-to-late first-round pick. Remove two or three of these pieces and we're still a contender, and our future is still extremely bright, especially with a top-end defenseman being added to the fold.

We're contenders. Datsyuk and Zetterberg and Kronwall and Nyquist and Tatar and Sheahan and DeKeyser have all avoided major injury this season. The Eastern Conference crown has never been so up-for-grabs. We should make a push. Why say, "Well, it's great that we're contenders, but what about 5+ years from now?" Well...maybe we're contenders 5+ years from now. But...we're contenders...right now...? I'm not talking about selling the farm. I'm talking about moving a D prospect plus Pulkkinen/Jurco. If that's completely out of the question, then we're never going to make a meaningful trade and this team is never going to reach its full potential. We draft and develop well, but not well enough that we can say, "Y'know what, let's try to win with an entirely homegrown roster." Why would we make that a thing? Even if it's possible, it's certainly not realistic. Every Cup-winning team that has ever been has needed some outside help.

I don't necessarily agree with the idea of trading certain people, but I am always amused by how easily people forget what Holland has tried to do again and again over the last several years. When he fails to do what he is attempting to do, we ended up signing a lot of s***. Then when the s*** breaks down, our prospects get called up and prove themselves.

Suddenly Holland is a genius who knew what he had in Grand Rapids and that's why he stood pat.

Wait, what?

If Holland had accomplished some of the things he's tried to accomplish over the last few years in free agency, this team would look very different. Based on what he did accomplish in free agency, it's reasonable to say we're probably lucky Holland struck out more often than not. The kids are legit, and I'll give all the credit in the world to Holland and his team for great drafting and development. But Holland tried hard to do something that would give this team a very, very different look than they have now. Maybe it would've worked out, and maybe not, but it is absurd to suggest that this was the plan all along and Holland knew what he was doing.

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I don't necessarily agree with the idea of trading certain people, but I am always amused by how easily people forget what Holland has tried to do again and again over the last several years. When he fails to do what he is attempting to do, we ended up signing a lot of s***. Then when the s*** breaks down, our prospects get called up and prove themselves.

Suddenly Holland is a genius who knew what he had in Grand Rapids and that's why he stood pat.

Wait, what?

If Holland had accomplished some of the things he's tried to accomplish over the last few years in free agency, this team would look very different. Based on what he did accomplish in free agency, it's reasonable to say we're probably lucky Holland struck out more often than not. The kids are legit, and I'll give all the credit in the world to Holland and his team for great drafting and development. But Holland tried hard to do something that would give this team a very, very different look than they have now. Maybe it would've worked out, and maybe not, but it is absurd to suggest that this was the plan all along and Holland knew what he was doing.

Holland has consistently refused to trade highly touted prospects and high draft picks. He's repeated his mantra of "building from within" soooo often that I've wanted to punch him. Presumably he has this point of view because he believes it's the right way to build and team. And what do you know, it's paying off. Not really sure how you can be critical of him right now? And if the roster management (and it's current successes) aren't attributable to Holland, who does get the credit? Luck? Babcock? Dan Cleary?

Edited by kipwinger

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Dabura - Whether people want to admit it or not, Quincey is a solid player, and whether or not he's worth a first round pick is debatable. I think he is, or a 2nd at that very least. I mean, you're the one that doesn't seem to put much stock into draft picks, talking about that 18 year old, pimple faced kid, that we'd draft in the mid to late round, wouldn't get a shot for 5+ years anyway, if he even makes it...

Even if we signed Sutter and / or Parise, Holland would still be looking 5+ years into the future... I don't get how that would change. Parise is definitely over-paid but Sutter is one of the top defenders in the league. Any team would take him, even at that cap-hit.

He traded one of our better prospects because Joakim Andersson was our number one center. Did he over-pay? Absolutely. Was it necessary? I believe it was. The streak may not mean much to you or many other fans, but it sure as hell means a lot to the players, management, the Ilitch's, and the appreciative fan base.

Holland has pursued a lot of UFA's but has never been willing to overpay for them. If he really wanted any of the players you listed, he could have had them by simply over-paying like every other GM had to do to get them. But he chose not to pay ridiculous prices because like I've been saying, he was focused on the future and did not want to handicap the team going forward.

I have no problem trading away one of our promising defense prospects like Ouellet in a package, but it has to be at the right time and for the right player. Like I said, I don't think we're a Yandle away from being a true contender... yet. I think we will be there this time next year. So for this year, I go after one of the smaller fish like Petry or Michalek, that would only cost a pick and or a middling prospect.

Eventually we're going to land one of these big names in Free Angency, but not simply because it's our time, and eventually you have to. It's because, like I previously stated, after this season, seeing what this team is capable of, players will be wanting to sign here. It's not that easy to get the biggest name guys to sign with your team when you've been struggling to make the playoffs for a few years in a row...

Yandle is for the first time ever, known to be available? Really? He has been in rumors leading up to the trade deadline for the past what? Three seasons? Every year, the Wings are going to trade for Keith Yandle. Well guess what? It hasn't happened the past few years and I guarantee it won't happen this year either.

I wouldn't trade away assets this season, and I'd hold out hope that we can land Franson in the offseason. I think he's a real possibility for us and he's the type of player Holland should go all-in after, within reason of course...

It's funny how you bring up the fact that in 5+ years Datsyuk won't be here, Zetterberg will be a shell of the player he is today, and Nyquist, Tatar and DeKeyser will be making serious money, but fail to point out the growth of Nyquist, Tatar and DeKeyser as well as all the other kids in that time, not to mention Datsyuk's cap coming off the books. I get it, Pav and Hank are elite players and they will be tough to replace, but I think we have a few guys that are capable of filling their skates, and even if they don't quite get to that elite status, we should have a much deeper team that we can fill the void by committee... We lost Lidstrom right? No one thought we'd get through that loss, but the Red Wings keep proving everyone wrong, even much of their fan base...

No, none of those players are key contributors for us right now, but almost all of them will be in the future. I'm okay with trading Marchenko, but no way do I trade Sproul, which is the player they would want. I also wouldn't be surprised if Maloney said it's Mantha or Larkin or no Yandle, which is when I hang up the phone.

I do believe we can win a Cup with mostly a fully home-grown roster, and I bet Holland does too. Why would we want to make that a thing? Why wouldn't we?...

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Holland has consistently refused to trade highly touted prospects and high draft picks. He's repeated his mantra of "building from within" soooo often that I've wanted to punch him. Presumably he has this point of view because he believes it's the right way to build and team. And what do you know, it's paying off. Not really sure how you can be critical of him right now? And if the roster management (and it's current successes) aren't attributable to Holland, who does get the credit? Luck? Babcock? Dan Cleary?

Did you miss the part where I said "I'll give all the credit in the world to Holland and his team for great drafting and development"?

But yes, I would say that our current success on many levels boils down to luck, though by my definition, on many levels, you make your own luck. We help our chances of getting lucky by having good drafting and more importantly, good development. But if we're being reasonable, we have to admit that the kids are playing a lot better than what could reasonably have been expected of them. It wasn't expected that they'd be this good, not just by outsiders, but even internally in many cases. Hence, why Holland has tried so hard for some time now to change the look of this team in the off-season.

Again, my point is that if Holland had accomplished some of the things he's set out to do the last few years, this team would not look like they do right now. This team is not part of Holland's master plan. When Holland has been successful at accomplishing more to directly shape the look of this team lately, it has not gone well at all. I'm not trying to s*** on him, and again, all credit in the world to he and his team when it comes to drafting and development, but I'm not about to start praising him after five years of his continually dropping the ball in free agency.

If anyone's truly lucky, it's him. Had these kids not turned out as well as they seem to be, which was absolutely a very real possibility, this team would be in a lot of trouble. And to be fair, even our current luck with the kids is a tenuous situation; we've seen guys start out great and disappear before.

If the team flounders again in the playoffs and some of our kids don't get off to such a great start next year, will you still be so peachy on the whole situation? I don't think so. I'm not saying I want that or even think it's going to happen, and if you've followed any of my posts this year, you'd know I'm pretty high on this team right now and optimistic about the future. But I've been around long enough to know that when it comes to young players, a lot can change in a short time.

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gcom007, I usually agree with you for the most part but I think you're way off base here... How does it still come down to luck? I mean, after drafting and developing player after player with optimal success year after year, at some point it needs to be considered a skill, and not just dumb luck. Our scouts are always looking for steals in the draft, and they've been very successful in doing so, but it comes down to how we develop our players. No team in the entire league develops their players as well as the Red Wings.

Holland wasn't trying to make these UFA signings because he didn't think the kids would work out, he was trying to make them in case they didn't work out as well as projected. It also never hurts to pick up players for free in the summer and still have the extra assets to move later if need be. It's a little naïve to think that Holland and co. had no idea the kids were good players, don't ya think? Sure, some of them have exceeded expectations but we've had a very deep prospect pool for a few years now and I think the man ahead of it all, had a slight idea what was going on...

People keep insisting that this wasn't Holland's plan just because he "tried" to sign other players. But let's be honest, if Holland wanted these players and he was willing to overpay, and if there weren't a salary cap, he would have whichever players he wanted. There is a salary cap and he has to be tighter with his money. Holland refused to overpay for free agents and kudos to him for that.

Who has Holland really gone hard after in the past few years? Suter? If we landed Suter, who wouldn't be here right now realistically? DeKeyser and Quincey? Instead we would have Suter and Ouellet? I love DeKeyser and I like Quincey but I pick the second pair every day. I don't think any of our forward core changes with that signing... Since then it's been a lot of swing and missing on defensemen, defensemen we wouldn't have gone after if we landed Suter...

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Did you miss the part where I said "I'll give all the credit in the world to Holland and his team for great drafting and development"?

But yes, I would say that our current success on many levels boils down to luck, though by my definition, on many levels, you make your own luck. We help our chances of getting lucky by having good drafting and more importantly, good development. But if we're being reasonable, we have to admit that the kids are playing a lot better than what could reasonably have been expected of them. It wasn't expected that they'd be this good, not just by outsiders, but even internally in many cases. Hence, why Holland has tried so hard for some time now to change the look of this team in the off-season.

Again, my point is that if Holland had accomplished some of the things he's set out to do the last few years, this team would not look like they do right now. This team is not part of Holland's master plan. When Holland has been successful at accomplishing more to directly shape the look of this team lately, it has not gone well at all. I'm not trying to s*** on him, and again, all credit in the world to he and his team when it comes to drafting and development, but I'm not about to start praising him after five years of his continually dropping the ball in free agency.

If anyone's truly lucky, it's him. Had these kids not turned out as well as they seem to be, which was absolutely a very real possibility, this team would be in a lot of trouble. And to be fair, even our current luck with the kids is a tenuous situation; we've seen guys start out great and disappear before.

If the team flounders again in the playoffs and some of our kids don't get off to such a great start next year, will you still be so peachy on the whole situation? I don't think so. I'm not saying I want that or even think it's going to happen, and if you've followed any of my posts this year, you'd know I'm pretty high on this team right now and optimistic about the future. But I've been around long enough to know that when it comes to young players, a lot can change in a short time.

I should apologize. I had a really hectic day and life has been kicking my ass lately. Which is to say: 1) my responses were rush jobs (at least by my standards), and 2) if there's an undercurrent of pissiness, it's not directed at you (or anyone, for that matter).

I'll be posting a non-discourteous, more Dabura-like take.

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So here's my thoughts on stuff, non-rush job edition.

If I offered you $1,000,000 today OR $0.01 today, doubling each day for 30 days... Which would you take?... 95% of LGWers take the million up front, I'm just glad Holland would take the penny...

Holland wouldn't make any combination of a deal there. Sure, making that deal makes us better today, but we take a huge hit in the future...

My point is that Holland wouldn't necessarily choose the penny. That is to say, he's not categorically opposed to trading high-end assets. If moving Smith, Pulkkinen, and a first-round pick could get him the right player, he'd do it. In recent years, the main stumbling block has been our system's sheer lack of young, desirable assets, the kind of players that teams would want in return for their big-name players. But now we have a wealth of young talent, far more than we're ever going to be able to fit on the roster. I mean, look at our D situation: we've got Ouellet, Marchenko, Sproul, Jensen, (Almqvist), (Backman), Marshall, and Hicketts in the pipeline, and we have to assume that Kronwall, Ericsson, and DeKeyser are in it for the long haul and that Quincey will either be extended or replaced with a free agent pickup. And, further, let's assume Smith doesn't get traded. That leaves...one roster spot, and the #7 role. Point being, assets will have to be moved. And it's the same kind of deal with the forward corps. So, if a trade is inevitable, why not sell high on a couple pieces and get what we really need right now, which is an elite defenseman who can score 50+ points and elevate this team to "powerhouse" status.

Three months ago, I might've said we should wait until next year to make a big move. But this team has exceeded my expectations and is performing about as well as it possibly can without that elite defenseman. And with Eastern Conference supremacy being up for grabs (if the Isles win the East becaue they landed Boychuk and Leddy, I will s*** bricks), and, again, Datsyuk and Zetterberg (and Kronwall) having only so many postseason runs left in them, and with things being so crazy that Don Maloney has come out and said that every Coyote not named Shane Doan is available...I don't really get how someone could say, "Pulkkinen, Smith, and a 1st for Yandle? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Sure, we might win a Cup, but at what cost?!" Like, again - Quincey and a couple months of Legwand cost us two first-round picks and one of our better prospects. And if we want to talk about prospering in the present but suffering in the future, Suter and Parise would've been the ultimate Cup-or-bust signings. You think two or three good pieces for Yandle is insane? Parise and Suter would've made it very, very, very hard to hold on to all of Nyquist, Tatar, DeKeyser, Sheahan, et al. past their first or second contracts. We would've been handcuffed for years.

But, at the end of the day, the Cup is everything. You're either rebuilding/retooling, or you're scraping and clawing for the Cup. If there's a chance Holland can get a top-pairing defenseman at a price he can live with, he needs to consider it. And I've no doubt that he is, in fact, making calls and weighing his options.

Edited by Dabura

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Dabura, have you even been reading what I've been saying? I don't believe this team is a Keith Yandle away from winning the cup. I don't think losing Smith, Pulkkinen and a first puts us that much further ahead this season, that we're all of a sudden a favorite. I think it is a trade we lose in 3-5 years from now, therefore I don't make the trade. But not only am I saying that I wouldn't make the trade and I don't think Holland would make that trade, I really don't think Maloney would make that trade... I think the asking price is going to be Mantha / Larkin or no Yandle, and I think Arizona would be able to get a top end prospect of their calibre from another team.

I don't get why so much time and effort is being spent on this Yandle debate anyway. I'd give it about a 25% likelihood that Yandle gets traded before this years deadline and about a 0.5% he gets traded to Detroit... Really, what was the last major trade that Holland made, giving up multiple assets to acquire a big name player? And no, Legwand doesn't count...

Of all the defense prospects you listed, only 2 or 3 have a relatively good chance at making the NHL. I think most of the others have little to no chance, and even if they do make it some day, they hold absolutely no value as of right now. I think a 7th round pick holds as much or more value as Almquist or Marshall at this point...

I'm not apposed to moving some of the defense prospects at some point, and I'm well aware of the numbers game, but in my opinion right now isn't the time to swing for the fences, and Yandle isn't the player we need to sign this season...

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And with Eastern Conference supremacy being up for grabs (if the Isles win the East becaue they landed Boychuk and Leddy, I will s*** bricks)

The Isles won't win the East because of Boychuk and Leddy. ...but I get what you are saying.

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Honestly, I think some of our prospects are being grossly overvalued. Right now this defense corps consists of two legitimate Top 4 guys, with perhaps Quincey on the edge of that.

Here's the thing... Cup contention or not, right now this team's got nothing in the way of defenders to help with a transition from the vets to the prospects. When you look up front, you've got guys like Nyquist and Tatar who are going to hold things down before Mantha and Larkin (hopefully) transition into solid players. Kindl and Smith should be the guys helping with that transition on the back end, but they're just not good enough. DeKeyser by himself isn't enough.

I definitely think Detroit has something in guys like Ouellet and Sproul, but who's holding down the fort as they progress? You can only pile so much on Kronwall. If you can pull the trigger on Smith, Pulkkinen and a 1st for a legitimate offensive threat between the ages of 25-30, you do it. I wouldn't go as far as to say that those guys are replaceable, but they are most definitely expendable. As much as I enjoy Pulkkinen's possible upside, he's more of the same on this team. We've got the smaller skilled goal scorers in Tatar and Nyquist, with Mantha on his way soon. Without coming down on the guy too much, I do think that Ouellet is more than capable of doing the job Smith is doing now, and has better upside.

It isn't about adding a piece to put this team over the edge. It's about adding a piece to make real improvements to this team so that they can remain successful. I'd rather not find out the answer to, "Can Ouellet, Sproul, Marchenko, etc. progress fast enough to offset Kronwall slowing down?" Waiving Lashoff was a proactive move by Holland, and I hope he's willing to make another one with some of the assets in the system now.

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A guy that can help the transition between the vets and the youth on the back end can be picked up in the offseason (Cody Franson or Mike Green), until then I make a trade for a lower end defender (Petry, Mechalek or Zidlicky) that won't cost us near as much in assets. Franson > Yandle every day for me, and if we can pick him up in the offseason, without giving up Smith or Pulkkinen, that's what I go for. Of course it's not just a matter of telling Franson to sign and he's here, but I think we would have a real shot at landing him this summer. We're building up a contender and players are taking notice, we have one of the best run organizations in all of sports, and Detroit is right next door to where he currently resides in Toronto...

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Personally, if I'm KH, I probably sit tight right now at the deadline if the asking prices are crazy. Because this team isn't one piece (I.e a top 3 d man) away from challenging from the cup, and there's no point subtracting pieces from the roster or farm who could actually make this team better at the expense of one player. One guy doesn't make a team, especially when Datsyuk and Z are winding down, we need to hold on to some of our high end prospects. Now, don't get me wrong, they could go deep in the playoffs (theoretically, any team could, and the Wings have shown flashes of being pretty good at times) but on paper right now this isn't a cup contender this season I don't think. But I wouldn't be surprised to see them go to the ECF. I really wouldn't.

Having said all that, I just think this team needs another year of growth and experience. And then a deadline deal or something in the off season to shore up the D properly.

Think about it. Another year of growth from Tatar, Nyquist and Sheahan, and you've got two really really strong scoring lines that are defensively responsible. Miller and Glendening making up a really solid 4th line (along with say Callahan, or Andersson, or Ferraro, or a plug) and a 3rd of Jurco, Weiss, possibly Pulkkinen (who will only get better and adjust to playing in the NHL). Personally, I think the Wings will be fine up front. And when we can add Mantha and AA in the mix in a year or two, it's gonna get really interesting. I have a feeling that Weiss will be expendable in a year or two.

Really, until Sproul/Marchenko/possibly Jensen are ready to play, the stop gaps are really Quincey (which is why I think he got a 2 year deal not one) and Ericsson. Kindl, if he doesn't get traded, may end up as #7 (and there could be a lot worse 7th D men than that) and next year he'll have 2 years left

I think the future of this D lies around DeKeyser, Ouellet and Smith. Take those 3, add Kronwall and if guys play to their potential, that's a decent top 4. not world beating, but solid. Which is why we need to add in the next 2 years with a top 3 guy to solidify things. I see it happening at some point, and I don't think they necessarily have to be right handed. Not if Marchenko shows some really good things this week, and if Sproul gets a look too and they like what they see.

Edited by wings4thecup06

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A guy that can help the transition between the vets and the youth on the back end can be picked up in the offseason (Cody Franson or Mike Green), until then I make a trade for a lower end defender (Petry, Mechalek or Zidlicky) that won't cost us near as much in assets. Franson > Yandle every day for me, and if we can pick him up in the offseason, without giving up Smith or Pulkkinen, that's what I go for. Of course it's not just a matter of telling Franson to sign and he's here, but I think we would have a real shot at landing him this summer. We're building up a contender and players are taking notice, we have one of the best run organizations in all of sports, and Detroit is right next door to where he currently resides in Toronto...

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can't fathom taking Franson > Yandle. Yandle is worlds better than Cody Franson. Even giving up the assets I mentioned, I think Keith Yandle is an elite offensive defender and you pull the trigger on that move, rather than hoping you can land Franson. He`s the left handed Mike Green without the injury concerns.

Putting this stuff aside, I really do think Holland is up to something. Can't help but wonder if he's showcasing players, finding out how they fare at the NHL level with the intention of using someone, or perhaps both. Of course, I'm assuming he could be showcasing them. No real indication that he is for sure - just a guess. I think the issue with "showcasing" players is that if they look great, you don't want to give them up. If they look like crap, teams kind of sour on them.

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I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I can't fathom taking Franson > Yandle. Yandle is worlds better than Cody Franson. Even giving up the assets I mentioned, I think Keith Yandle is an elite offensive defender and you pull the trigger on that move, rather than hoping you can land Franson. He`s the left handed Mike Green without the injury concerns.

Putting this stuff aside, I really do think Holland is up to something. Can't help but wonder if he's showcasing players, finding out how they fare at the NHL level with the intention of using someone, or perhaps both. Of course, I'm assuming he could be showcasing them. No real indication that he is for sure - just a guess. I think the issue with "showcasing" players is that if they look great, you don't want to give them up. If they look like crap, teams kind of sour on them.

This is precisely what I think he's doing.

Potential is great and all. But actually assessing hands on what players can do at the NHL level is the thing that matters in terms of real evaluation.

Wouldn't surprise me one bit if Marchenko stays for 2-3 games and then Sproul is recalled. He's showcasing the players not only to see if they're ready, but also to potentially enhance their value in when the deadline comes round. It's smart. KH is putting himself in the strongest possible position by evaluating what he has at the right time.

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Jesusberg, well I agree that we should agree to disagree... :tounge:

If both Yandle and Franson were UFA's this offseason and they were both willing to sign with our team for the same amount of money, and we had to choose one, I pick Franson every time. Of course Yandle is not a UFA, and to get him, we have to give up assets, which would make my decision that much easier. I'm not saying Yandle isn't good by any means, he's a great player, but I think Franson is better and a better fit for the Red Wings. Franson is a year younger, much bigger and stronger, and is that coveted right handed shot. Franson hits everything that moves, 138 hits to Yandle's 29. Franson is a shot blocking machine, 95 blocked shots to Yandle's 60. Franson's giveaway to takeaway ration is much more impressive, 46/32 to Yandle's 48/17. Yandle has 2 more points than Franson, but Franson has 2 more goals than Yandle, despite Yandle getting more time on ice per game, and more power-play time...

I'll admit I haven't watched a ton of Arizona/Phoenix games the past couple years, but I do watch the scattered one and Yandle never wows me. I do however, watch a ton of Toronto games because my girlfriend is a (gulp) Leafs fan... :bag: and Franson almost always impresses me. He does all the little things right and still produces at a reasonable clip. He has a great first pass and can quarter-back a power-play. Again, I take Franson any day, and I've wanted that kid ever since he first started playing in the league with Nashville...

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The Wings are 1 point out of first in their division with a game in hand on TB. Depending on the D brought in, I think one player absolutely puts them in the upper echelon of the league as long as they don't give up a bunch of roster players to do it.

It's funny though, people bash Holland for not having balls to make a trade, but then whenever someone suggests trading anyone decent to bring in a good player like Ekman-Larson or whoever, they panic and say no way, because FUTURE!

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The Wings are 1 point out of first in their division with a game in hand on TB. Depending on the D brought in, I think one player absolutely puts them in the upper echelon of the league as long as they don't give up a bunch of roster players to do it.

It's funny though, people bash Holland for not having balls to make a trade, but then whenever someone suggests trading anyone decent to bring in a good player like Ekman-Larson or whoever, they panic and say no way, because FUTURE!

I get what you're saying, but I think some of us wouldn't deem it the right time to make a deal right now when doing so would probably hinder the team a few years down the line because some depth has been lost to acquire a player that right now, won't put the things thoroughly over the top.

Whereas, if we wait another year for growth and development to occur, that trade might actually put us over the top and give us a better chance to sustain a decent run.

Obviously, I'm not opposed to the right deal. But it has to be that, and it can't be a 'let's throw all the logs on the fire now' approach because I don't believe that this team right now, with say a Yandle added to the backend, for what we'd have to give up, would be close enough to a cup to warrant such a deal.

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The Wings are 1 point out of first in their division with a game in hand on TB. Depending on the D brought in, I think one player absolutely puts them in the upper echelon of the league as long as they don't give up a bunch of roster players to do it.

It's funny though, people bash Holland for not having balls to make a trade, but then whenever someone suggests trading anyone decent to bring in a good player like Ekman-Larson or whoever, they panic and say no way, because FUTURE!

There are just a few people over rating the prospects. I think most people understand that it will take a great offer to get a top 2 pairing guy. As mentioned in the other thread OEL would cost a lot because he brings a lot to to team. A top paring of Dekeyser and OEL? Sign me up for that. I mean regardless of what people are thinking about the cost of acquiring Myers GM know that the wings are in dire need of defensive help so Holland has to pay to get it it's just simple business.

Do I think Holland would pull something like this off? Back when he had fire and drive for sure...the current Holland would hardly do it.

I mean other than Mantha, Larkin and obviously McKee I'm sure other teams do have their own Pulkinnen, Athanasius, Ouellette... So none of them alone will return much

Edited by frankgrimes

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Couldn't agree more wings4thecup06.

Dickie, some people may bash Holland for not having balls to make a trade every year, and once again at this years deadline (if he doesn't), and some people may not want Holland to make any big trades this deadline, parting with our top end prospects... but for the most part (or at least in my case) those are not the same people... Although there definitely are some bipolar individuals on LGW...

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