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nyqvististhefuture

Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

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Players say that stuff all the time. Plus, I'd take the Toronto "news" with a grain of salt. Unless, of course you're trying to win an arguement.

I agree with you about Kronwall.

Also, it's very naive to think they can just rid themsleves of bad contracts like Phanuef's in order to keep the guys they want. Again, I suspect you're just trying to make your point.

Nope ... Watch hockey central daily , they've mentioned a few times how teams like l.a are interested in Phaneuf (sutter coached him calgary) and with voynov most likely being gone for good it also makes sense

Deals like that are easier to do in the off season ... And as I said before if you really love a player and he's that good you won't just let them go

If we were gonna lose say a Tatar right now we wouldn't trade someone to make room for him? We find a way to keep our best assets

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Nope ... Watch hockey central daily , they've mentioned a few times how teams like l.a are interested in Phaneuf (sutter coached him calgary) and with voynov most likely being gone for good it also makes sense

Deals like that are easier to do in the off season ... And as I said before if you really love a player and he's that good you won't just let them go

If we were gonna lose say a Tatar right now we wouldn't trade someone to make room for him? We find a way to keep our best assets

The same Hockey Central that insists Babcock is going o Toronto?

Again, the Toronto media will invent trade and player movement fantasies just to keep themselves employed and to keep Leaf fans off the ledge.

I almost have more faith in Eklund at this point.

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I said I would take him as a rental not longterm at the price it would cost which is what you said 5-5.5 for 5-6 years ... No Thanks

And no offence but just cause you say he's absolutely a 2nd or 3rd nhl defensemen doesn't mean is ... It's your opinion just like my opinion that he's nowhere near a number 2 or 3 ... More like 4-5 on a good team (my opinion)

I love these logics of how the leafs are giving up on franson because there the leafs ... If he's a number 2 they do everything in there power to keep him ... Leafs or not

He reminds me of a james wizniewski ... I recall a lot of people wanted him and he ended up going to Columbus for around 5 per for 5 years? He's not worth the contract and neither will franson , and he will end up on a team that will overpay and a team that has a hard time attracting free agents

If he's traded to the wings at the deadline I see him going with dekeyser on the 2nd pairing ...again personally I'm not willing to give him 5+ Longterm

That's pretty much what gritty O-dmen of their caliber go for these days

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Your kidding right? It's all over the sports news all the time here how he loves toronto and how toronto isn't willing to budge from the 4 mill per ballpark , it has nothing to do with past 1 year offers ... if they realize how amazing he is they'd just give him the 5 per longterm and be done with it

And why even bring up kronwall? Kronwall is also what? 7 years older? And he's much better overall than franson is

If he's as good as you think he is they do anything to keep him and trade say a Phaneuf in the off season

Right, because trading Phaneuf and his massive (and undeserved) contract will be super duper easy to move.

I'm not sure what's so hard to believe here. Toronto mismanaged their team and now can't afford to keep a good player? Good teams do it all the time, why is it so hard to believe a bad team (Toronto) couldn't do it too?

I'll give you examples:

1. Boston couldn't afford to keep Iginla or Boychuk, but they aren't bad players.

2. Chicago couldn't afford to keep Campbell, Versteeg, Ladd, or Byfuglien, but they aren't bad players.

3. Detroit only offered Marian Hossa 4 million dollars to stay, but he's not a bad player.

Sometimes, cap constraints mean you'll lose guys (or lowball guys) that you'd prefer to keep. It happens...a lot.

Get over it. He's a good offensive defenseman. You don't have to like him. You don't have to want him on the team. But your continued insistence that he must not be good because the Toronto Maple Leafs organization can't retain him (at market value), is absurd. Completely and totally absurd.

Is it really so hard to believe that that Maple Leafs are wrong? Or stupid? Or poorly run? They've been wrong, stupid, and poorly run for the last 65 year!

Edited by kipwinger

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Getting Franson, Green, Yandle, Myers, or OEL, long-term really only makes sense if he's replacing Ericsson. We're not exactly overflowing with cap space or roster spots.

Fixed

Edited by number9

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nyquististhefuture, you may not want him here under such a contract, but I'm willing to bet you're one of the only ones here that wouldn't... Not to mention the 30 GM's in the league that would love to have a player like Cody Franson on their team long term (yes, I am including his current team, that believe it or not, does still want him, just can't afford him)...

By the way James Wisniewski is another player that would do great on this team, so I'm not sure what that comparison was all about.

Explain to me what doesn't make Franson a second pairing defenseman? That statement is ludicrous... He would be a second pairing guy on just about any team in the league and would be a borderline top pairing guy here...

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He reminds me of a james wizniewski ... I recall a lot of people wanted him and he ended up going to Columbus for around 5 per for 5 years? He's not worth the contract and neither will franson , and he will end up on a team that will overpay and a team that has a hard time attracting free agents

James Wisniewski isn't worth his contract? He's a top four offensive defenseman and powerplay quarterback. Since he's been with Columbus he's scored 115 points in 199 games. He also averages over 20 minutes a night. He's been top ten in defense scoring twice in the four years he's been there, and has contributed 14 powerplay goals and 47 powerplay points since then.

What would he need to do to be worth his contract if he's not doing it already? Learn to fly? Do the team's taxes as well?

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Whoever said we don't have space for a big contract is wrong. We've got $8 million in space right now. And we are relying on cheap drafted players for the future. We've got plenty of cap space moving forward.

Agreed. Plus, I think it's understood that if we signed a guy like Franson long term, we'd probably be letting Quincey walk after next season. Just a guess, but seems like a reasonable one.

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The same Hockey Central that insists Babcock is going o Toronto?

Again, the Toronto media will invent trade and player movement fantasies just to keep themselves employed and to keep Leaf fans off the ledge.

I almost have more faith in Eklund at this point.

They never said Babcock is coming ...babcocks is there first choice as a new coach ... Do you blame them?

That's pretty much what gritty O-dmen of their caliber go for these days

And they always end up going to teams that have a had time attracting free agents ... Wonder why

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Right, because trading Phaneuf and his massive (and undeserved) contract will be super duper easy.

I'm not sure what's so hard to believe here. Toronto mismanaged their team and now can't afford to keep a good player? Good teams do it all the time, why is it so hard to believe a bad team (Toronto) couldn't do it too?

I'll give you examples:

1. Boston couldn't afford to keep Iginla or Boychuk, but they aren't bad players.

2. Chicago couldn't afford to keep Campbell, Versteeg, Ladd, or Byfuglien, but they aren't bad players.

3. Detroit only offered Marian Hossa 4 million dollars to stay, but he's not a bad player.

Sometimes, cap constraints mean you'll lose guys (or lowball guys) that you'd prefer to keep. It happens...a lot.

Get over it. He's a good offensive defenseman. You don't have to like him. You don't have to want him on the team. But your continued insistence that he must not be good because the Toronto Maple Leafs organization can't retain him (at market value), is absurd. Completely and totally absurd.

Is it really so hard to believe that that Maple Leafs are wrong? Or stupid? Or poorly run? They've been wrong, stupid, and poorly run for the last 65 year!

Different situations All those teams you mentioned did it in order to keep star players

Kane toews Keith hossa

Chara bergeron rask krejci

Zetterberg datsyuk lidstrom (unfortunetly Franzen over hossa)

Leafs have what kessel? Maybe van riemsdyk? Who else do they have that they aren't willing to part with that make big money to keep a key piece?

If he was really as valuable as you claim he is they wouldn't just let him go, they do everything and anything to keep him ... Everyone knows they will have to buy out clarkson , a chunk of his money would go to franson, they could trade a bozak or lupul ... Whomever

They don't have star studded guys like the teams you mentioned who they would never consider trading

Yes the leafs were poorly run for along time but do we really think shanahan is an idiot ? I'm convinced he's doing everything to give he leafs the best chances to get Connor mcdavid by hiring these idiots to coach the team , so if Phil kessel got dealt at the deadline it wouldn't surprise me

Anyways back to franson ... We'll just have to wait and see what happens

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They never said Babcock is coming ...babcocks is there first choice as a new coach ... Do you blame them?

And they always end up going to teams that have a had time attracting free agents ... Wonder why

Ok, let's be more systematic about this. What holes do you see in Franson's game that make you think he's not worth that kind of money and term? And can you think of any comparable defensemen/comparable contracts that you think are more realistic for a guy like him?

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...and yet here they are tied for the league lead, with more points than the Wings, in the "tougher" Western Conference.

Guess they must be doing sumpthin' right.

You mean the conference that Detroit is like 10-1-2 against so far this season? Is that the 'tougher' conference of which you speak?

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nyquististhefuture, you may not want him here under such a contract, but I'm willing to bet you're one of the only ones here that wouldn't... Not to mention the 30 GM's in the league that would love to have a player like Cody Franson on their team long term (yes, I am including his current team, that believe it or not, does still want him, just can't afford him)...

By the way James Wisniewski is another player that would do great on this team, so I'm not sure what that comparison was all about.

Explain to me what doesn't make Franson a second pairing defenseman? That statement is ludicrous... He would be a second pairing guy on just about any team in the league and would be a borderline top pairing guy here...

Well apparently not all 30 teams cause toronto are stupid and I want to let him go ... Seriously though would a lot of teams want franson? Maybe but there's a salary cap now that everyone has to work with so you just can't throw money at whoever without thinking about it

Wisniewski comparison is he's another player everyone wanted here as you just said and I think is over priced and went to a team that no one wants to go to and can only attract free agents by over paying them(which is what I predict what will happen) say a Edmonton or whomever

As I've said before if we get him as a rental at the deadline ... Good .... I'm just not willing to give him 5-5.5 per year for 5-6 yrs ... I don't think he's done nearly enough to warrant that money

James Wisniewski isn't worth his contract? He's a top four offensive defenseman and powerplay quarterback. Since he's been with Columbus he's scored 115 points in 199 games. He also averages over 20 minutes a night. He's been top ten in defense scoring twice in the four years he's been there, and has contributed 14 powerplay goals and 47 powerplay points since then.

What would he need to do to be worth his contract if he's not doing it already? Learn to fly? Do the team's taxes as well?

He plays with columbus ... Who exactly are they gonna give all the ice time to? There's a reason why top teams didn't give him all that money Edited by nyqvististhefuture

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Different situations All those teams you mentioned did it in order to keep star players

Kane toews Keith hossa

Chara bergeron rask krejci

Zetterberg datsyuk lidstrom (unfortunetly Franzen over hossa)

Leafs have what kessel? Maybe van riemsdyk? Who else do they have that they aren't willing to part with that make big money to keep a key piece?

If he was really as valuable as you claim he is they wouldn't just let him go, they do everything and anything to keep him ... Everyone knows they will have to buy out clarkson , a chunk of his money would go to franson, they could trade a bozak or lupul ... Whomever

They don't have star studded guys like the teams you mentioned who they would never consider trading

Yes the leafs were poorly run for along time but do we really think shanahan is an idiot ? I'm convinced he's doing everything to give he leafs the best chances to get Connor mcdavid by hiring these idiots to coach the team , so if Phil kessel got dealt at the deadline it wouldn't surprise me

Anyways back to franson ... We'll just have to wait and see what happens

Here's a quick breakdown of Toronto's salary structures. They already committed prime time money to crappy players. Which is why they can't afford to keep Frason.

Toronto is paying Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, and Clarkson more than Chicago gave to Toews, Kane, Keith, and Hossa on their last deals (the ones they cleared Ladd et. al. to keep). They're paying them more than we paid Lids, Z, Dats, Franzen when we lost Hossa. They're paying them nearly as much as Chara, Bergeron, Kreci, and Rask.

Kessel: 8 million cap hit

Phaneuf: 7 million cap hit

Lupul 5.2 million cap hit

Clarkson: 5.2 million

Van Reimsdyk: 4.2 million

Bozak: 4.2

Gardiner: 4

Robidas: 3

Komorov: 2.9

Kadri: 2.9

Bernier: 2.9

Polak: 2.7

Reimer: 2.3

Edited by kipwinger

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Your kidding right? It's all over the sports news all the time here how he loves toronto and how toronto isn't willing to budge from the 4 mill per ballpark , it has nothing to do with past 1 year offers ... if they realize how amazing he is they'd just give him the 5 per longterm and be done with it

The Leafs are in hockey hell. They have to rebuild. To that end, they need to move out some big contracts and stockpile futures. So, Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years doesn't necessarily make sense for them. They're already up against the cap ceiling, even without a Franson extension.

Even if Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years does make sense for them, Shanahan shouldn't be in this position in the first place. Franson should be on an affordable, manageable multi-year deal that takes him into the second or third year of his UFA years. His cap hit this season and next season and maybe even the season after that should be something like $3M, which would be a great value and would give them flexibility in terms of $ and term as well as trade options, as opposed to a huge $5.5M x 7 years deal that takes him from age 27 to age 34 and puts them in an even deeper hole in terms of their ability to wipe the slate clean and start over with only one or two big contracts on the books (one of them being Clarkson, who pretty much can't be moved). My point being, I could see Shanahan saying, "I'm not paying for a Nonis mistake unless I absolutely have to. We need to get out from under the mistakes of previous regimes, not double down on them in the first year of our rebuild."

As for Kronwall - our D corps doesn't generate enough offense. Kronwall is the only defenseman we have who can give us eight goals and 45 points. A truly elite team should have at least two guys like that. When we won the Cup, we had Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall. Now? We have a 34-year-old Kronwall and three "defensive defensemen" in Ericsson, DeKeyser, Quincey. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough, struggles to hit the net with shots from the point, and, again, just doesn't give us the production we need.

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Well apparently not all 30 teams cause toronto are stupid and I want to let him go ... Seriously though would a lot of teams want franson? Maybe but there's a salary cap now that everyone has to work with so you just can't throw money at whoever without thinking about it

Wisniewski comparison is he's another player everyone wanted here as you just said and I think is over priced and went to a team that no one wants to go to and can only attract free agents by over paying them(which is what I predict what will happen) say a Edmonton or whomever

As I've said before if we get him as a rental at the deadline ... Good .... I'm just not willing to give him 5-5.5 per year for 5-6 yrs ... I don't think he's done nearly enough to warrant that money

He plays with columbus ... Who exactly are they gonna give all the ice time to? There's a reason why top teams didn't give him all that money

Says the guy who think it would be so easy to unload Phaneuf in the off-season... :lol:

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I didn't say otherwise.

My point is that Poile wants to upgrade a D corps that's already significantly better than ours and is arguably tops in the league. Poile should probably just be happy to be making the playoffs and being a top team. Instead, he wants to make his team even better, because why not. He wants to Go For It, because why not. Strike while the iron is hot, because why not. That's the approach I feel the Wings should be taking. We've liked our team for several years now, but we haven't made it past the second round in several years. This is the best team we've had in several years and I think we should Go For It, because why not.

I want that top-three defenseman. Without him, we can't win the Cup. Ouellet, Marchenko, and Sproul are all very promising, but not one of them is ready to be that gamechanging piece that puts us over the top.

Just for the sake of argument - I suppose the best answer to your question of 'why not?' for the Predators would be 2012....

Traded 2012 1st round pick for Paul Gaustad

Traded 2012 2nd round pick plus Geoffrion/Slaney for Hal Gill

Traded 2013 2nd round pick for Andrei Kostitsyn....

....lost to Phoenix 4 games to 1 in the conference semis.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I think that's my best shot at an answer.

Edited by barabbas16

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Ok, let's be more systematic about this. What holes do you see in Franson's game that make you think he's not worth that kind of money and term? And can you think of any comparable defensemen/comparable contracts that you think are more realistic for a guy like him?

If we give him 10 mill 2 years fine ... Not willing to go the 6 yrs it will take when we got ouellet sproul backman marchenko jensen in our system and a lot of top names being dangled out there(so they say)

I don't think getting 2 30-35 pt seasons for a defenseman should mean he automatically gets big money longterm and yes he logs a lot of ice time but I think we have to see everyone's situation differently .... He's in toronto , who else will they give allot of ice time beside he and Phaneuf? Gardiner is a bust and reilly is a kid... Polak?robidas?

This reminds me of weiss who I didn't like when we signed him and said he was overrated and got all those pts with florida cause they had no one else and got s*** on... You can give all the excuses that he's been hurt and this and that but whatever the case but so far he's been a clear bust

Is it hard to fathom if he went to a good team and given more responsibilities he might just not cut it?

Here's a quick breakdown of Toronto's salary structures. They already committed prime time money to crappy players. Which is why they can't afford to keep Frason.

You mention Toews and Kane as reasons why Chicago couldn't keep Ladd, Versteeg, Byfuglien, etc. Toronto is paying Kessel and Phaneuf more than Chicago gave to Toews and Kane on their last deals (the ones they cleared Ladd et. al. to keep).

Phil Kessel

$8,000,000

$10,000,000

$10,000,000

Dion Phaneuf

$7,000,000

$8,000,000

$8,000,000

Joffrey Lupul

$5,250,000

$5,250,000

$6,750,000

David Clarkson

$5,250,000

$4,750,000

$5,500,000

James Van Riemsdyk

$4,250,000

$4,500,000

$4,750,000

Tyler Bozak

$4,200,000

$4,000,000

$5,000,000

Jake Gardiner

$4,050,000

$4,050,000

$4,050,000

Cody Franson

$3,300,000

$3,300,000

UFA

Stephane Robidas

$3,000,000

$4,000,000

$3,000,000

Leo Komarov

$2,950,000

$2,950,000

$2,950,000

Nazem Kadri

$2,900,000

$3,100,000

RFA

Jonathan Bernier

$2,900,000

$3,400,000

RFA

Roman Polak

$2,750,000

$3,100,000

$3,100,000

James Reimer

$2,300,000

$2,600,000

$2,000,000

Morgan Rielly

$1,744,000

$925,000

$833,000

Mike Santorelli

$1,500,000

$1,500,000

UFA

Daniel Winnik

$1,300,000

$1,300,000

UFA

Petri Kontiola

$1,100,000

$1,100,000

UFA

David Booth

$1,100,000

My point was besides kessel and maybe van riemsdyk who do they have that they aren't willing to trade or buy out with to wanna keep such a key piece? Nobody in my eyes ... Clarkson will get bought out for sure

Chicago and the players I mentioned there was 0 chance they were willing to part with any of them to keep the guys they let go

The Leafs are in hockey hell. They have to rebuild. To that end, they need to move out some big contracts and stockpile futures. So, Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years doesn't necessarily make sense for them. They're already up against the cap ceiling, even without a Franson extension.

Even if Franson @ $5.5M x 7 years does make sense for them, Shanahan shouldn't be in this position in the first place. Franson should be on an affordable, manageable multi-year deal that takes him into the second or third year of his UFA years. His cap hit this season and next season and maybe even the season after that should be something like $3M, which would be a great value and would give them flexibility in terms of $ and term as well as trade options, as opposed to a huge $5.5M x 7 years deal that takes him from age 27 to age 34 and puts them in an even deeper hole in terms of their ability to wipe the slate clean and start over with only one or two big contracts on the books (one of them being Clarkson, who pretty much can't be moved). My point being, I could see Shanahan saying, "I'm not paying for a Nonis mistake unless I absolutely have to. We need to get out from under the mistakes of previous regimes, not double down on them in the first year of our rebuild."

As for Kronwall - our D corps doesn't generate enough offense. Kronwall is the only defenseman we have who can give us eight goals and 45 points. A truly elite team should have at least two guys like that. When we won the Cup, we had Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall. Now? We have a 34-year-old Kronwall and three "defensive defensemen" in Ericsson, DeKeyser, Quincey. Our blue line doesn't move the puck well enough, struggles to hit the net with shots from the point, and, again, just doesn't give us the production we need.

Yes but I'm saying if he's as good as everyone says he is then they wouldn't let him go no matter what ... Rebuilding or not you still need pieces

And sadly i agree our defense doesn't provide much offence but we got some promising prospects and we can always trade for a yandle or larsson type player if the chance comes

Says the guy who think it would be so easy to unload Phaneuf in the off-season... :lol:

Easy ? Nope but I think l.a could be a team that would take him in a heart beat especially if voynov is no more

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Some talk of Franson to Detroit right here

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/five-potential-trade-destinations-for-cody-franson/

The Red Wings are light on cap space, but they might make the most sense as a potential rental destination for Franson. Of course, the Maple Leafs will be looking to maximize the return on the 6-foot-5 defenceman, so the addition of Franson to an already deep Red Wings team may be little more than wishcasting for Detroit fans.

The Red Wings have a few impressive young players already in the NHL and more coming down the pipeline. Perhaps there’s a deal to be made with multiple parts involved and Franson serving as the centrepiece.

Potential trade chips: Tomas Jurco, Dylan Larkin, Xaveir Ouellet, Teemu Pulkkinen, Ryan Sproul

I might be OK with Ouellet going to Toronto. But I'd have a hard time swallowing a deal that included any of the other four players listed.

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Well apparently not all 30 teams cause toronto are stupid and I want to let him go ... Seriously though would a lot of teams want franson? Maybe but there's a salary cap now that everyone has to work with so you just can't throw money at whoever without thinking about it

Wisniewski comparison is he's another player everyone wanted here as you just said and I think is over priced and went to a team that no one wants to go to and can only attract free agents by over paying them(which is what I predict what will happen) say a Edmonton or whomever

As I've said before if we get him as a rental at the deadline ... Good .... I'm just not willing to give him 5-5.5 per year for 5-6 yrs ... I don't think he's done nearly enough to warrant that money

He plays with columbus ... Who exactly are they gonna give all the ice time to? There's a reason why top teams didn't give him all that money

What defenseman, in your opinion, is worth a 5 year 5.5 million dollar contract? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from here.

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Just for the sake of argument - I suppose the best answer to your question of 'why not?' for the Predators would be 2012....

Traded 2012 1st round pick for Paul Gaustad

Traded 2012 2nd round pick plus Geoffrion/Slaney for Hal Gill

Traded 2013 2nd round pick for Andrei Kostitsyn....

....lost to Phoenix 4 games to 1 in the conference semis.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I thinkt hat's my best shot at an answer.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Holland to make a move just for the sake of making a move. But, at the same time, I'm really, really, really, really, really tired of "We kicked some tires, but the price wasn't right. I talked to every single GM about every single one of his top-four defensemen and in each and every case the asking price was Nyquist + Tatar + Mantha + Larkin + Datsyuk + Zetterberg + Jurco + Kronwall + a first-round pick + my first-born child. So, my hands are tied. But, y'know, we like our team. We think we've got real good depth, some real good young players. A guy like Marchenko, he's been real good for the Griffins, scored a goal the other night."

AAAAARRRRGGGHHHHH

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Easy ? Nope but I think l.a could be a team that would take him in a heart beat especially if voynov is no more

LA? Seriously?

The one team with 5 players with salaries of 7 million or higher next year and another two at 6 million.

Yeah that's going to work great for them.

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