Do we need a trade to get our offence going ?

[number9 3,297]

that's fine I'm not willing to just give away frk at this point regardless(meaning a late pick , if adding him in part of a big deal lands us a big player then obviously I would )

Not nhl xbox hey ... Where the hell did I ever say we can trade turgeon and get a roster player? I clearly said since we used up 2 3rd rounders to draft him then I'd have to think we can get a 3rd rounder for him and then mentioned jensen going for a 4th or 5th

And yes players have there own value on what you can get in return but I'm not gonna budge from where I PERSONALLY rank prospects on our team ... You don't like that I consider some certain guys middle of the pack and that's just fine it's my opinion just like you have your own

Now if you haven't noticed we basically scared everyone off from the thread and since the trade deadline is fast approaching I'd rather get some talks going on about that and get other peoples opinions involved as well

FINALLY, after pages of you avoiding the issue you admit at least 2 of the 4 have different values. Probably the wrong values, but I'll take it.

Why would another GM care how many draft picks WE used on a player? That makes no sense.

[kipwinger 8,522]

My least favorite part of trade deadline/free agency you (nobody) asked?

Idiots speculating on asking prices and inflating the s*** out of them.

Case in point: George Malik (dummy) makes a fairly reasonable assertion that "the Red Wings would have to pay a inter-division premium" to get Cody Franson from Toronto. Ok, sure. How much George? Well, the regular asking price seems to be hovering around a second round pick and (maybe) a prospect. So George, of course, speculates that it will take a 1st, and a roster player OR a "prospect or two".

Elsewhere, Khan speculates that Toronto could refuse to trade with Detroit, so that the latter will lose early in the playoffs, and in doing so make Toronto (a non playoff team) a better option for Babcock in the offseason. Because Brendan Shanahan would prioritize making someone else's team worse over making his team better. And because losing early in the playoffs is somehow worse than not making them. And because Babcock is clinically insane.

And Helen St. James thinks it'll take Tatar to land Myers.

And Ansar Khan thought Matt Niskanen would get close to 7 million per.

And every single speculated trade involving the Red Wings starts with Mantha, and a 1st.

Stupid.

[Dabura 12,207]

My least favorite part of trade deadline/free agency you (nobody) asked?

Idiots speculating on asking prices and inflating the s*** out of them.

Case in point: George Malik (dummy) makes a fairly reasonable assertion that "the Red Wings would have to pay a inter-division premium" to get Cody Franson from Toronto. Ok, sure. How much George? Well, the regular asking price seems to be hovering around a second round pick and (maybe) a prospect. So George, of course, speculates that it will take a 1st, and a roster player OR a "prospect or two".

Elsewhere, Khan speculates that Toronto could refuse to trade with Detroit, so that the latter will lose early in the playoffs, and in doing so make Toronto (a non playoff team) a better option for Babcock in the offseason. Because Brendan Shanahan would prioritize making someone else's team worse over making his team better. And because losing early in the playoffs is somehow worse than not making them. And because Babcock is clinically insane.

And Helen St. James thinks it'll take Tatar to land Myers.

And Ansar Khan thought Matt Niskanen would get close to 7 million per.

And every single speculated trade involving the Red Wings starts with Mantha, and a 1st.

Stupid.

I've been meaning to say something along these lines.

[VM1138 1,921]

I really don't think the intra division premium applies to this Franson situation. They need to unload him. They're rebuilding. It'll be a long time before they are competitive and we have better prospects than most. Our draft picks won't be worth much so I'm betting they'd part with him for one of our defense prospects and a low pick just to add some extra value. Maybe a roster player, which I'd be okay with since we have so many. Kindl, a 3rd, and maybe a lower ranked defense prospect should do it.

Edit: that's the starting point. If another team offers more obviously we go up from there.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I really don't think the intra division premium applies to this Franson situation. They need to unload him. They're rebuilding. It'll be a long time before they are competitive and we have better prospects than most. Our draft picks won't be worth much so I'm betting they'd part with him for one of our defense prospects and a low pick just to add some extra value. Maybe a roster player, which I'd be okay with since we have so many. Kindl, a 3rd, and maybe a lower ranked defense prospect should do it.

Edit: that's the starting point. If another team offers more obviously we go up from there.

Honestly, I think the starting point is a 2nd + decent prospect. The winner will most likely be the one to offer the best prospect, or (if they're really after Franson) even a 1st rounder. I seriously think he's going to command more than Kindl, 3rd + D prospect.

Prices are super high right now. As a matter of Bobby Mac's opinion, Franson might command a low 1st rounder:

https://twitter.com/TSNBobMcKenzie/status/565309487402459136

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jesusberg

[rick zombo 3,739]

The deadline is quickly becoming a "generally" unreliable option for improving a team. I say "generally" because although 16 teams make the playoffs, only a few teams a year get a real ugrade at the deadline. Same thing can be said for UFA time in early July.

More and more it seems like Holland's right: the only reliable way to build your team and the only way you're not at the mercy of other GMs, agents, supply and demand, etc, is to draft and develop from within.

[kipwinger 8,522]

The deadline is quickly becoming a "generally" unreliable option for improving a team. I say "generally" because although 16 teams make the playoffs, only a few teams a year get a real ugrade at the deadline. Same thing can be said for UFA time in early July.

More and more it seems like Holland's right: the only reliable way to build your team and the only way you're not at the mercy of other GMs, agents, supply and demand, etc, is to draft and develop from within.

I don't agree with this at all. I think that no team can be successful if they can't draft and develop, but I'd hardly say that's sufficient for building a championship caliber team. Look at the two teams in the finals last year. Martin St. Louis, Rick Nash, Derrick Brassard, Brad Richards, Anton Stralman, Benoit Pouliot, Justin Williams, Jeff Carter, Marian Gaborik, Robyn Regehr, Mike Richards, and Jarret Stoll were all drafted and developed elsewhere and contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to their teams' success.

In other years, the opposite is probably true of the two teams in the finals. I honestly don't believe there's one right way to build a contender. I think Holland's way works for Holland, because he and his team are REALLY good at developing players (so it's usually good to keep them). But I don't think hanging on to your own prospects and picks would help Edmonton, Calgary, Columbus, Ottawa, etc. much. Because those teams are awful at developing their own talent.

[krsmith17 7,191]

That is steep for a potential rental, however, I believe that Franson could be the type of guy that would want to re-sign with us in the offseason (if we land him). If we finish in the top of the standings and go on a decent run, I think he would be foolish not to re-sign (assuming Holland offers him a fair contract). Our blue line would look significantly better with him back there, and I'd consider going as high as a 2nd and Ouellet in a trade, and then do everything we can to lock him up after this season.

[kipwinger 8,522]

I know you won't like this, but hear me out. I'd trade Smith for Franson (obviously with the assurance that he's interested in re-signing). Here's why.

Assuming Franson is brought in to play in the top four (which has been clearly stated), if you trade Ouellet, then Marchenko becomes your 7th defenseman. And Quincey and Smith become your third pair. But as we've seen over the last few games, having Marchenko on that pair improves it dramatically. Ideally, you don't want this kid on the bench because he's going to make whomever he's paired with better by allowing them to play their correct side. But Babs is certainly not going to make Smith or Quincey the 7th D (nor should he). So we're left with that pair, which has been (and likely still is) a total dumpster fire.

I'd rather see this, any other scenario end with a veteran on the bench (not going to happen), or Marchenko on the bench (shouldn't happen).

Kronwall-E

Franson-Dekeyser

Quincey-Marchenko

Ouellet

Sure it's probably a little bit of an over payment for a guy on an expiring contract, BUT any "future" or "potential" you lose trading Smith you gain by resigning Franson so it's a wash.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

That is steep for a potential rental, however, I believe that Franson could be the type of guy that would want to re-sign with us in the offseason (if we land him). If we finish in the top of the standings and go on a decent run, I think he would be foolish not to re-sign (assuming Holland offers him a fair contract). Our blue line would look significantly better with him back there, and I'd consider going as high as a 2nd and Ouellet in a trade, and then do everything we can to lock him up after this season.

And this is probably the reality of what he's going to command. If Toronto really is starting at a 1st + prospect, and teams are (likely) offering a 2nd rounder, they're likely to meet halfway. If that means a 1st or a 2nd + good prospect, then Detroit's going to have to toss out a 2nd + Ouellet/Pulkkinen/Athanasiou to compete with some of other offers out there.

I don't think all of those guys have the exact same value, but I think they're in the same ballpark. Not our highest end guys, and not players most fans would be comfortable giving up. I'm not sure I pull the trigger on that - meh. The trade deadline has my love and hate.

Edit: If moving Smith for Franson was possible, I would rather go that route. I'm not sure how much interest Toronto would have in Smith, though (if they're looking for picks and prospects). Guess we'll have to see.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jesusberg

[kipwinger 8,522]

And this is probably the reality of what he's going to command. If Toronto really is starting at a 1st + prospect, and teams are (likely) offering a 2nd rounder, they're likely to meet halfway. If that means a 1st or a 2nd + good prospect, then Detroit's going to have to toss out a 2nd + Ouellet/Pulkkinen/Athanasiou to compete with some of other offers out there.

I don't think all of those guys have the exact same value, but I think they're in the same ballpark. Not our highest end guys, and not players most fans would be comfortable giving up. I'm not sure I pull the trigger on that - meh. The trade deadline has my love and hate.

Edit: If moving Smith for Franson was possible, I would rather go that route. I'm not sure how much interest Toronto would have in Smith, though (if they're looking for picks and prospects). Guess we'll have to see.

I agree with your sentiments, and overall statement completely. However, I would say that (although most people don't know it yet) Andreas Athanasiou is our best prospect not named Petr Mrazek. He's flown under the radar because of his injury, but this kid is a monster. He's better than Mantha, he's better than Ouellet, he's better than Sproul, and though he's not currently better than Pulkkinen he will be a better NHLer.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I agree with your sentiments, and overall statement completely. However, I would say that (although most people don't know it yet) Andreas Athanasiou is our best prospect not named Petr Mrazek. He's flown under the radar because of his injury, but this kid is a monster. He's better than Mantha, he's better than Ouellet, he's better than Sproul, and though he's not currently better than Pulkkinen he will be a better NHLer.

Mantha's stock has fallen because of his injury. He's in the same boat as AA.

Larkin's the best prospect not named Mrazek.

I don't agree with this at all. I think that no team can be successful if they can't draft and develop, but I'd hardly say that's sufficient for building a championship caliber team. Look at the two teams in the finals last year. Martin St. Louis, Rick Nash, Derrick Brassard, Brad Richards, Anton Stralman, Benoit Pouliot, Justin Williams, Jeff Carter, Marian Gaborik, Robyn Regehr, Mike Richards, and Jarret Stoll were all drafted and developed elsewhere and contributed SIGNIFICANTLY to their teams' success.

In other years, the opposite is probably true of the two teams in the finals. I honestly don't believe there's one right way to build a contender. I think Holland's way works for Holland, because he and his team are REALLY good at developing players (so it's usually good to keep them). But I don't think hanging on to your own prospects and picks would help Edmonton, Calgary, Columbus, Ottawa, etc. much. Because those teams are awful at developing their own talent.

I'm not talking right vs wrong. I'm talking reliability. There's a difference.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Mantha's stock has fallen because of his injury. He's in the same boat as AA.

Larkin's the best prospect not named Mrazek.

I'm not talking right vs wrong. I'm talking reliability. There's a difference.

Difference noted. But I still submit that its only reliable because we are good at it. It wouldn't be the most reliable way for Toronto to improve, because they can't develop players for s***.

[rick zombo 3,739]

Difference noted. But I still submit that its only reliable because we are good at it. It wouldn't be the most reliable way for Toronto to improve, because they can't develop players for s***.

Of course. Agreed.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, I already said that I would trade Smith for Franson, IF he would definitely, without question re-sign with us in the off-season. Of course, I do think it's an overpayment for a UFA so I doubt it happens, but if it were a sign and trade I would do it. Although, even if we were 100% able to re-sign him, I don't think that is the only option for us. In my scenario where we lose Ouellet and a 2nd, we could go with... Kronwall - Ericsson, Smith - Franson, DeKeyser - Quincey, or rearranged however. The reason Marchenko has looked so good is because of his handedness being paired with Smith, allowing him to play his natural side, which has formed a very solid pairing. But if you pair Smith with Franson and leave the other two pairings intact, which have been great all year, it makes us much deeper back there in my opinion...

I know you like to give me s*** about Smith, but honestly, do you believe Ouellet is an upgrade right now, or ever will be? I honestly don't see it. Smith is finally starting to round out his game and I still say it would be a mistake to trade him, especially for a rental...

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I agree with your sentiments, and overall statement completely. However, I would say that (although most people don't know it yet) Andreas Athanasiou is our best prospect not named Petr Mrazek. He's flown under the radar because of his injury, but this kid is a monster. He's better than Mantha, he's better than Ouellet, he's better than Sproul, and though he's not currently better than Pulkkinen he will be a better NHLer.

I basically threw in that "I don't think all of those guys have the exact same value, but I think they're in the same ballpark" comment, just because I knew you'd reply with this

Honestly, I can't comment too much on his value, as I've mostly only caught a few highlights. I started watching the Griffs more a few games after his injury. Has he been centering Mantha for most of the year? When you look at the recent trend with DRW prospects, not many guys have truly excelled in their first season with the Griffins, outside of Nyquist. Tatar and Jurco both took a year to settle in, so I'm not too worried about Mantha just yet. My best guess would be that both AA and Mantha have a respectable 2nd half, and absolutely blow-up next season.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jesusberg

[krsmith17 7,191]

I also agree on Athanasiou. It would be a huge mistake to trade this kid in any sort of package. He is the real deal. Although I wouldn't put him above Mantha and Larkin right now, I think he definitely has the potential to be the best of all of our prospects at any position.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Not sure it's even a big deal, but apparently Franson and Lupul aren't practicing right now. Wasn't Franson rumored to be injured this past week?

https://twitter.com/jonastsn1050/status/565548332354125824

Either way, looking at the BUF-WPG deal right now, I'm glad Detroit escaped the whole Myers thing. What an insane deal, if it all comes together.

[Dabura 12,207]

The Jets' top three is now Byfuglien, Enstrom, Meyers. That...is pretty damn decent.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Kip, I already said that I would trade Smith for Franson, IF he would definitely, without question re-sign with us in the off-season. Of course, I do think it's an overpayment for a UFA so I doubt it happens, but if it were a sign and trade I would do it. Although, even if we were 100% able to re-sign him, I don't think that is the only option for us. In my scenario where we lose Ouellet and a 2nd, we could go with... Kronwall - Ericsson, Smith - Franson, DeKeyser - Quincey, or rearranged however. The reason Marchenko has looked so good is because of his handedness being paired with Smith, allowing him to play his natural side, which has formed a very solid pairing. But if you pair Smith with Franson and leave the other two pairings intact, which have been great all year, it makes us much deeper back there in my opinion...

I know you like to give me s*** about Smith, but honestly, do you believe Ouellet is an upgrade right now, or ever will be? I honestly don't see it. Smith is finally starting to round out his game and I still say it would be a mistake to trade him, especially for a rental...

There's a lot to respond to here, so I'll try to be systematic...

1. Dekeyser is never, ever, going to be on the third pair. I know you think that it's not "technically" the third pair if you get a decent amount of minutes, but Mike Babcock (and all the other coaches in the league) don't agree. There's no benefit to acquiring a top four defenseman (Franson) and demoting one (Dekeyser) for a bottom pair guy (Smith). Mike Babcock does not believe Brendan Smith is a top four defenseman. If he was, he would be. It's not t like he's being blocked by Kronwall and Brad Stuart. He's being blocked by Kyle Quincey and younger, less experience, and undrafted stay at home defender in Dekeyser. If he was truly the better player, he'd play.

2. Marchenko has looked good because Marchenko IS good. He's playing the same side, and the same way he always does. The lefty/righty pair has disproportionately benefitted Smith's game, not Marchenko's. Put another way, Marchenko ALWAYS plays with a lefty, so playing with another one isn't a big deal. But until recently Smith NEVER played with a righty, which is why being switched has improved his game so much.

3. Xavier Ouellet has played 21 games. In that time he's shown that he's got excellent decision making, very good passing, very good work ethic, and a very good point shot. No, he's not currently better than Brenden Smith, but to suggest he won't ever be, after 21 games, is premature. If Brendan Smith was judged based off of his first 21 games he'd be flipping burgers in Ontario somewhere. Remember, this is a guy who got called out by the team captain for creating as many scoring chances for the other team as he did for his own...so don't get cocky quite yet lol.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser > Byfuglien, Enstrom, Myers... in my opinion.

Jacob Trouba is the only defender on the Jets that I would want...

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Have to imagine this drives up the price for a guy like Franson now.

[Dabura 12,207]

I'd assumed they were looking to package Kane and Bogosian together. I think I said so here or on SBNation.

Bogosian's bombed pretty hard, and everyone hates Kane, but those are basically the two pieces we're looking for - a premier power forward with serious issues (otherwise, his team wouldn't be trading him) and a right-shot defenseman who can log big minutes. So in that sense it's kind of a bummer. (Not to mention the fact that we get to see Kane five times every season now. Ugh.) But I'm assuming Cheveldayoff would've wanted Nyquist or Tatar.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Have to imagine this drives up the price for a guy like Franson now.

I don't think so. Not comparable. Myers was under contract. Franson's a UFA at the end of the year. Plus Kane's stock fell dramatically (attitude AND injury), which is why he had to be paired with Bogosian.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

I don't think so. Not comparable. Myers was under contract. Franson's a UFA at the end of the year. Plus Kane's stock fell dramatically (attitude AND injury), which is why he had to be paired with Bogosian.

Not so much of a direct comparison, but because that's one less guy off the market. I almost wonder if it'll influence Nonis to pair someone with Franson, looking to land a bigger package. I really think it's going to turn into a bidding war.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Jesusberg