Smith and Ericcsson?

[Guest DeGraa55]

I'm not gonna lie.

I'd probably still watch that.

I mean, I still watch baseball.

Lol....even as a baseball fan you still made

Me chuckle.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Lol....even as a baseball fan you still made

Me chuckle.

I laughed really hard picturing a bunch of grown men about to fight, then play being stopped and tables and chairs get brought out and a civilized debate ensues over a high stick and a concussed bleeding man tries to put his frustrations into words.

[Mckinley25 677]

Actually I said witch with a b. But sorry censored I know.

And basically all you told me is you're the liberal telling your kids it's ok that he mocks you honey just go tell your teacher!

in the world of hockey and other sports you don't have time to sit down and talk about things like intelligent human beings lol. What do you want them to do stop the game every five minutes so we can have a great debate of intelligent human beings. This way instead of a dirty hit, or fight or whatever we can just sit there and talk about it! Now that's good television!!

Well that's not exactly what I was saying, but I'll accept that without offense as explaining how things aren't that black and white seems futile.

I'd rather them stop the game for that than a fight, the point is if they avoided the unnecessary fight the game wouldn't stop at all for pointless theatrics.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Well that's not exactly what I was saying, but I'll accept that without offense as explaining how things aren't that black and white seems futile.

I'd rather them stop the game for that than a fight, the point is if they avoided the unnecessary fight the game wouldn't stop at all for pointless theatrics.

How is it an unnecessary fight with theatrics? You realize most men have a greater respect for eachother that'll stand up for themselves and their teammates.

Look up people's comments about Crosby and Franzen. People hate them because of that very reason.

Also with fighting you at least put yoursekf on the line. Better then just slashing someone on breaking their wrist(Crosby and giroux). Or running your mouth ALL GAME LONG and never backing it up(Franzen).

Edited November 21, 2014 by DeGraa55

[Mckinley25 677]

As detailed above, it was unnecessary because it served no purpose therefore just theatrical.

How is it an unnecessary fight with theatrics? You realize most men have a greater respect for eachother that'll stand up for themselves and their teammates.

Look up people's comments about Crosby and Franzen. People hate them because of that very reason.

Also with fighting you at least put yoursekf on the line. Better then just slashing someone on breaking their wrist(Crosby and giroux). Or running your mouth ALL GAME LONG and never backing it up(Franzen).

I'm certainly not going to defend trash talk either, and as far as the respect part I'm not sure what you mean.

[Guest DeGraa55]

As detailed above, it was unnecessary because it served no purpose therefore just theatrical.

Showing that you have a backbone isn't unnecessary.

[Mckinley25 677]

Showing that you have a backbone isn't unnecessary.

I agree with you if only because I recognize what your desired outcome of that action is, but where we differ is I wish to see another result.

[Guest DeGraa55]

I agree with you if only because I recognize what your desired outcome of that action is, but where we differ is I wish to see another result.

I just don't understand that mindset. I guess I never will.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I agree with DeGraa on this one. I don't understand how people think this was selfish. Smith took exception to a hit he felt was a little on the dirty side, and wanted to drop the gloves. Big deal... If he knew that fight was going to result in him missing a week (minimum), I'm sure he would have thought otherwise, but the likelihood of an injury, especially an infection, was extremely slim. The chances of injury were likely smaller than what "could" have happened in that hit from behind by Foligno. Hockey is the fastest, most physical sport on the planet, in my opinion, even more so than football / rugby / lacrosse because of the speed of the game. Guys are going to get hurt, and fighting is probably the least likely cause of injury in the NHL.

Were you people upset when Ericsson stood up for Helm when he took a dirty hit from Nolan in the LA game? I personally loved it, and I wish more of our guys would do it. I'm not saying I want a pure goon on our team that can barely skate either, I just wouldn't mind to see some more overall team toughness, and see guys sticking up for one another. I'm by no means, a huge fighting advocate but I do think it definitely belongs in the game.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Per usual on LGW, both "sides" of this debate are correct at the same time. Smith wasn't being negligent, or selfish. But he also didn't do his team any favors either. This would be a footnote in an otherwise dominant game if not for Nick Foligno's dirty monkey germs. Without this weird infection setting in, NOBODY would care that Smith fought or that he was put back on the ice afterward. It would have been like every other thing that happens when you're beating someone 4-0...meaningless.

[Richdg 267]

LOL, some thought it was selfish for guys to want to play for their countries in the Olympics. How about the AS game? Charity game? is it selfish for a hockey player to go hunting where he could get shot? Ride a motorcycle? get out of the tub? There is risk in everything that everyone does everyday. Lets give it a rest already.

[Mckinley25 677]

Per usual on LGW, both "sides" of this debate are correct at the same time. Smith wasn't being negligent, or selfish. But he also didn't do his team any favors either. This would be a footnote in an otherwise dominant game if not for Nick Foligno's dirty monkey germs. Without this weird infection setting in, NOBODY would care that Smith fought or that he was put back on the ice afterward. It would have been like every other thing that happens when you're beating someone 4-0...meaningless.

Well I would've cared if he fought but I realize I'm a mamby pamby liberal who wets my bed and teaches my son he has a ****** and what not.

But seriously I just think it's pointless, they're grown men though and can make their own decisions.

[Mckinley25 677]

LOL, some thought it was selfish for guys to want to play for their countries in the Olympics. How about the AS game? Charity game? is it selfish for a hockey player to go hunting where he could get shot? Ride a motorcycle? get out of the tub? There is risk in everything that everyone does everyday. Lets give it a rest already.

This is a little off point, the benefits of a charity game and arguably the Olympics are what makes those risks worth it, there are exactly zero benefits of a fight so it may not be worth the risk. And as far as riding a motorcycle, I don't know exactly how dangerous that is but when I played in high school I was not allowed to go skiing or play any sport recreationally that could endanger my participation on the team. That was high school, and I sucked. A lot.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Smith fighting Foligno there wasn't theatrics, it was a heat of the moment I'm going to kick your ass for a dirty hit fight. Two knuckle draggers who are only in the NHL to fight going at it just because they happen to be on the ice together in a blow out loss fighting is theatrics, and those are the ones that need to be gone from the game.

[Richdg 267]

This is a little off point, the benefits of a charity game and arguably the Olympics are what makes those risks worth it, there are exactly zero benefits of a fight so it may not be worth the risk. And as far as riding a motorcycle, I don't know exactly how dangerous that is but when I played in high school I was not allowed to go skiing or play any sport recreationally that could endanger my participation on the team. That was high school, and I sucked. A lot.

You can make the point for the entire sport of hockey. Does it feed the poor? educate our children? House the homeless? defend us from terrorists? Nope, none of that. Hockey and every sport is there to entertain. Thus it really is theatrics. All of it.

[kipwinger 8,522]

Well I would've cared if he fought but I realize I'm a mamby pamby liberal who wets my bed and teaches my son he has a ****** and what not.

But seriously I just think it's pointless, they're grown men though and can make their own decisions.

Look man, I agree with you. I hate fighting in the game. I think it's a side show. I do not find it redeemable in any way. I view it EXACTLY like the penalty it is, and nothing more.

Nevertheless, I don't think Smith was acting any more irresponsibly than he would have been if he'd been called for any other stupid penalty. And I don't think that anybody would really be too awful upset if he's taken a slashing or crosschecking penalty there. The game was out of reach, so it didn't cost us much. Had he not been injured in such freak way, I don't think anybody would even have remember it happened.

I offer this up to you...I've typically got very little good to say about Brendan Smith. Everyone knows this. When he's not scoring I think he's bad, and when he is scoring I think he's slightly above average. So if I could criticize him I would, or at least I wouldn't defend him unnecessarily. But he really didn't do anything worse than take a stupid penalty, far after it mattered to the game, because another (equally stupid player) hit him borderline dirty in game that was out of reach.

Edited November 21, 2014 by kipwinger

[Mckinley25 677]

You can make the point for the entire sport of hockey. Does it feed the poor? educate our children? House the homeless? defend us from terrorists? Nope, none of that. Hockey and every sport is there to entertain. Thus it really is theatrics. All of it.

Well you are of course right that hockey is entertainment, but that doesn't service the point in anyway. We are discussing hockey and how things affect hockey, not the world first and how hockey affects the world.

A pointless fight that in no way benefits the game isn't worth the risk, this is hockey in a bubble now. Activities outside of hockey that can be risky are also either not allowed (like playing recreational hockey) or frowned upon. There are some things outside of the hockey bubble that for various reasons are worth the risk of injury, like charity or the Olympics. I don't believe these are comparable to a fight because they benefit the interests of the NHL and the community. The fight did nothing for anyone and hurt a player. This of course is not just a debate we're having but one we regularly see between the various concerned parties with a vested interest in the league.

Look man, I agree with you. I hate fighting in the game. I think it's a side show. I do not find it redeemable in any way. I view it EXACTLY like the penalty it is, and nothing more.

Nevertheless, I don't think Smith was acting any more irresponsibly than he would have been if he'd been called for any other stupid penalty. And I don't think that anybody would really be too awful upset if he's taken a slashing or crosschecking penalty there. The game was out of reach, so it didn't cost us much. Had he not been injured in such freak way, I don't think anybody would even have remember it happened.

I offer this up to you...I've typically got very little good to say about Brendan Smith. Everyone knows this. When he's not scoring I think he's bad, and when he is scoring I think he's slightly above average. So if I could criticize him I would, or at least I wouldn't defend him unnecessarily. But he really didn't do anything worse than take a stupid penalty, far after it mattered to the game, because another (equally stupid player) hit him borderline dirty in game that was out of reach.

Well I went to Echo's defense over an anti fighting point and like always I allowed it to snowball out of control, and I think if he didn't miss a game as a result it's not as big an issue, so admittedly the circumstances permitted a jumping off point for a broader discussion.

But yeah, I obviously don't like fighting.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Hindsight is 20/20.

Foligno was starting to take liberties against our players in an already decided game.

Smith stepped up to defend himself and in doing so took himself and Foligno off the ice for a good deal of time.

Had Smith not stepped up, Foligno could have continued taking shots at guys and possibly injured someone else.

Now I'm not saying fighting some how makes players afraid to take cheap shots. But it does take those guys out of the game.

[Mckinley25 677]

Hindsight is 20/20.

Foligno was starting to take liberties against our players in an already decided game.

Smith stepped up to defend himself and in doing so took himself and Foligno off the ice for a good deal of time.

Had Smith not stepped up, Foligno could have continued taking shots at guys and possibly injured someone else.

Now I'm not saying fighting some how makes players afraid to take cheap shots. But it does take those guys out of the game.

I actually believe an argument can be made that fighting may in some cases improve another area of the game, like reduce cheap shots. I don't know for certain if that's true, but the players themselves have talked about. My issue is that I think it's time we found another solution to these problems that's not so stupid as fighting.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

I actually believe an argument can be made that fighting may in some cases improve another area of the game, like reduce cheap shots. I don't know for certain if that's true, but the players themselves have talked about. My issue is that I think it's time we found another solution to these problems that's not so stupid as fighting.

What would you suggest? Larger fines? Longer suspensions?

Kind of getting off topic... Yay Smith and Ericcson

[kipwinger 8,522]

It's already happening. The salary cap and the influx of European players was the death knell of fighting in hockey. It's just taking a while for it to work its way out. More than fines, suspensions, etc., the thing most necessary to get rid of fighting in hockey was a change in the "fighting culture". By which I mean, a change in attitude away from fighting from the people that are in a position to do something about it.

The salary cap and Euros already have accomplished that. More and more first rate players aren't fighting because they're European, and beyond that, they can't be goaded into fighting either. Add to that the fact that because there's a salary cap each dollar and roster spot is more valuable than ever so GM's and coaches aren't willing to give a spot (or a paycheck) to a fighter who has fewer opportunities to fight, and generally a smaller skill set.

If you're like me, and you want fighting gone, just wait a while. It's an inevitability. Nothing else needs to be done to make it happen.

[number9 3,297]

It's already happening. The salary cap and the influx of European players was the death knell of fighting in hockey. It's just taking a while for it to work its way out. More than fines, suspensions, etc., the thing most necessary to get rid of fighting in hockey was a change in the "fighting culture". By which I mean, a change in attitude away from fighting from the people that are in a position to do something about it.

The salary cap and Euros already have accomplished that. More and more first rate players aren't fighting because they're European, and beyond that, they can't be goaded into fighting either. Add to that the fact that because there's a salary cap each dollar and roster spot is more valuable than ever so GM's and coaches aren't willing to give a spot (or a paycheck) to a fighter who has fewer opportunities to fight, and generally a smaller skill set.

If you're like me, and you want fighting gone, just wait a while. It's an inevitability. Nothing else needs to be done to make it happen.

I love fighting and would love to see it returned to what it was, but yes it's 100% slowly phasing itself out.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Its definitely going that way and I don't want to make it seem like I'm "pro-fighting". I'm definitely "anti-enforcer".

I'm just curious how certain scenarios would play out...

Your team is fighting for a playoff spot and a guy on the other team (also playing for playoff spot) viciously runs your star player from behind and knocks him out cold.

I don't see the victimized team doing nothing. So they punch him in the head with the gloves on? Start swinging sticks?

There is no comparable major sport where you can inflict a large amount of damage with a weapon at any time against an unsuspecting player.

Again I'm not pro-anything. I just don't think it's that simple of an issue.

[Mckinley25 677]

Its definitely going that way and I don't want to make it seem like I'm "pro-fighting". I'm definitely "anti-enforcer".

I'm just curious how certain scenarios would play out...

Your team is fighting for a playoff spot and a guy on the other team (also playing for playoff spot) viciously runs your star player from behind and knocks him out cold.

I don't see the victimized team doing nothing. So they punch him in the head with the gloves on? Start swinging sticks?

There is no comparable major sport where you can inflict a large amount of damage with a weapon at any time against an unsuspecting player.

Again I'm not pro-anything. I just don't think it's that simple of an issue.

It's definitely not simple, but I agree with Kip in that the change comes from a culture shift and that scenario you described will be an infrequent enough situation that it will resemble the other major sports which all have fighting, it's just not a problem. Baseball may not have sticks and blades but if that pitcher wants to hurt someone, I don't know of a more dangerous weapon in sports haha. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't most baseball fights start from the batter being hit with a pitch?

[kipwinger 8,522]

We already have a model for what intense, physical, fast, aggressive, win at all costs hockey looks like. It's called the playoffs. And they rarely fight.