Are the Wings a Contender?

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Well you're certainly free to speculate about what he could or couldn't do. But we've already established that he's not going to come up as a result of his waiver status, so I'm not really sure why you've chosen to play the contrarian on this particular talking point.

He cleared to go down originally. From the CBA:

"the Player has not played in ten (10) or more NHL Games cumulative since

Regular Waivers on him were last cleared, and more than thirty (30) days cumulative on an NHL

roster have not passed since Regular Waivers on him were last cleared." In that case he does NOT have to clear waivers again. In other words, if they do end up putting Abdelkader on IR, they can recall Callahan, let him play a couple games, and send him down without clearing waivers.

[number9 3,297]

I know you're joking (as always) so maybe I shouldn't point this at you... but I don't get why people in this thread are saying he's overrated, overhyped, etc. The only opinions I've seen is some saying that he should be in the lineup over Kindl. That's not really a grand statement - it is also Babcock's opinion as well. XO's shown himself to be quite ready in his call-ups and is the most ready of our AHL Dmen.

I don't think Kindl has been all that bad, but he is often a defensive liability. Ouellet could realistically be more solid.

Now, if someone has called him the second coming of Lidstrom and I didn't see it - my apologies.

I think he should be in the lineup too, I just think people around here get their expectations way too high and then turn on the kid down the road when he doesn't have 30 pts or isn't hospitalizing people. Like Ericsson.

EDIT: i don't think others think he's Lidstrom, i expect others think he's better than Quincey though and he may not be yet or for a while.

Edited December 3, 2014 by number9

[krsmith17 7,191]

Dickie, I'm not sure if you're understanding that correctly. I'm by no means a waiver guru or anything, so if anyone else wants to chime in, by all means. I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Callahan would have to pass through waivers again. He was sent down at the beginning of the season, having to pass through and he cleared. It is now well over 30 days since he last cleared so my understanding is that if we called him up, he would have to be exposed once again to be sent back down.

My thing is, I think he should be called up with full intention to keep him up full time. Get rid of Andersson. Please...

In my mind, Andersson and Kindl are our only two weak links right now. Get them off this roster and we'll see what this team is really capable of.

[e_prime 1,936]

Cap geek says he's gotta pass through waivers again.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Cap geek says he's gotta pass through waivers again.

I thought so too, but I have no idea how waivers work when the player is waived before the start of the NHL regular season (if that even matters at all).

[DickieDunn 2,571]

The way I understand it unless he's been on the NHL roster for 30 days or 10 games he does not have to clear waivers. The rule states 30 days on an NHL roster, not 30 days since clearing waivers.

[TigerDan 20]

Hey Dickie, it's been awhile since I've posted, so I would expect its a coincidence, but, did you steal my handle?

Or were you just doing your job as a reporter? "Dickie Dunn wrote this, it has to be true"

As for the topic at hand: yes, the wings are a contender. Especially in today's NHL. A team of this stature 10 years ago? Not so much. But these days, it just takes making the playoffs. There's a lot of parity in the league and it all boils down to who's playing best in April / May. That said, a top 4 RH dman wouldn't hurt.

[e_prime 1,936]

The way I understand it unless he's been on the NHL roster for 30 days or 10 games he does not have to clear waivers. The rule states 30 days on an NHL roster, not 30 days since clearing waivers.

...but he's had 4 years of NHL waiver eligibility in which the Wings called him up for exactly, one game. His entry level deal expired last year and he re-signed with the Wings... so, with the way the new CBA works, his waiver exemption is OV-AH!

He can be called up without being claimed as re-entry waivers have been eliminated, but if they want to send him back down. He will have to clear waivers.

For clarity, let's use a Red Wings player that's waiver exempt, and one that wasn't waiver exempt (but for a different reason all together) for clarity. Just so that we're clear.

Our Red Wings player that's waiver eligible:

Xavier Oullet -

Even though his eligibility can run through 2015-16, he's only 5 games shy of being ineligible for waivers according to the new eligibility rules of the CBA.

(Capgeek readily admits, with a disclaimer, that their waiver calculator is slightly off)

CAPGEEK: Xavier Ouellet's waiver exemption of 4 year(s) and 160 games remains in place through to the end of the 2015-16 season. However, that exemption will end immediately when he appears in 160 career NHL regular season and playoff game(s). He has played in 10, meaning he is 150 away from his exemption ending.

Our example of a Red Wing player that didn't have eligibility, even though he hasn't re-upped a contract:

Andrej Nestrasil

CAPGEEK: Andrej Nestrasil's waiver exemption of 3 year(s) and 138 career NHL regular season and playoff game(s) has ended. He has been credited with 3 year(s) and 18 career game(s).

While he's only three years into his entry-level contract -- so technically, he had another year of eligibility depending on number of games played or days on the roster -- Nesty played 13 games with the Wings this year, making him ineligible for waivers when they tried to send him down to Grand Rapids.

I'm much too lazy to find an example that's exactly like Callahan's, and I'm not sure that ANY player has fallen into that category on ANY team YET this season. ...but hopefully Callahan won't be the first casualty.

EDIT: For clarity. /sarcasm

EDIT 2: Somebody please bookmark this post. It was a pain figuring this s*** out.

Edited December 4, 2014 by e_prime

[cnot19 191]

I think they're definitely a contender in the east idk about the west but if you win the east you're no doubt a contender

[Echolalia 2,961]

I think they're definitely a contender in the east idk about the west but if you win the east you're no doubt a contender

The Wings are 4-1-0 against the West this year, all against teams currently in playoff positions. Their only loss came against Anaheim at the beginning of the year.

[rick zombo 3,739]

The Wings are 4-1-0 against the West this year, all against teams currently in playoff positions. Their only loss came against Anaheim at the beginning of the year.

And that was an asterisk game.

[nawein 324]

E_prime, but I'm almost 100% positive that you're wrong on the reasoning with your examples. I'm at work now but I'll post more and explain later

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Dickie, I'm not sure if you're understanding that correctly. I'm by no means a waiver guru or anything, so if anyone else wants to chime in, by all means. I may be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Callahan would have to pass through waivers again. He was sent down at the beginning of the season, having to pass through and he cleared. It is now well over 30 days since he last cleared so my understanding is that if we called him up, he would have to be exposed once again to be sent back down.

My thing is, I think he should be called up with full intention to keep him up full time. Get rid of Andersson. Please...

In my mind, Andersson and Kindl are our only two weak links right now. Get them off this roster and we'll see what this team is really capable of.

You're misunderstanding. Capgeek calculates whether or not a player is exempt from having to go through waivers. From capgeek: However, the waiver calculator does not account for players who have already cleared waivers during the 2014-15 season (ie. prior to opening day) and, since then, have not played in 10 or more NHL games cumulative and not spent more than 30 days cumulative on an NHL roster. In these cases, players will appear to require waivers when they are exempt.

Callahan and Ferraro both have cleared waivers already. Until they have spent 30 days or 10 games on the Red Wings roster, they do not have to clear waivers again. They can call them up, have them on the team for 9 games and 29 days, then send them down without waivers. Or they can call them up 9 times to play one game each time, and send them down after the game each time without clearing waivers.

Callahan would probably have been in line for a call up but he had a terrible training camp when he was playing against NHL players instead of minor leaguers. He was slow, soft, looked lost with the puck, and didn't put forth great defensive effort. It's going to take a lot more than some good games in GR to overcome that. He has shown absolutely nothing to suggest that he's better than Andersson or anyone else in the NHL.

Hey Dickie, it's been awhile since I've posted, so I would expect its a coincidence, but, did you steal my handle?

Or were you just doing your job as a reporter? "Dickie Dunn wrote this, it has to be true"

As for the topic at hand: yes, the wings are a contender. Especially in today's NHL. A team of this stature 10 years ago? Not so much. But these days, it just takes making the playoffs. There's a lot of parity in the league and it all boils down to who's playing best in April / May. That said, a top 4 RH dman wouldn't hurt.

Handle or sig? Either way, no. Slapshot is just a great movie.

[e_prime 1,936]

This topic totally got derailed by the ******* CBA. The Thing is way too confusing.

I'll stand by my interpretation, and if I'm wrong... I'll certainly give a big pat on the back to whomever figures it out.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

This topic totally got derailed by thef****** CBA. The Thing is way too confusing.

I'll stand by my interpretation, and if I'm wrong... I'll certainly give a big pat on the back to whomever figures it out.

I'm not sure what's confusing about it. Player clears waivers and he doesn't need to clear again unless he's been on the NHL roster for 10 games or 30 days. Callahan cleared waivers this year already. He hasn't been on the NHL roster at all. If they recall him for a week, he can go back to GR without clearing waivers. It's very simple.

[nawein 324]

"13.5 Waiver Expiration. The rights granted under this Article to Loan a Player(s) who is

otherwise required to clear Regular Waivers to a minor league club expire for any Player(s) who,

after clearing Regular Waivers:

(i) is not Loaned to a minor league club, or is Recalled from a minor league

club (except on emergency Recall) and remains on an NHL roster for 74

ARTICLE 13 13.6-13.9

thirty (30) days (cumulative) or plays ten (10) NHL Games (cumulative),

or

(ii) is Recalled from a minor league club on emergency Recall and plays in

ten (10) NHL Games (cumulative) while on emergency Recall. For

purposes of clarity, games played while on regular Recall shall not count

towards the ten (10) NHL Games in this subsection (ii)."

"13.2 The "Playing Season Waiver Period" shall begin on the twelfth (12th) day prior to the

start of the Regular Season and end on the day following the last day of a Club's Playing Season.

Subject to the provisions of this Article, the rights to the services of a Player may be Loaned to a

club of another league, upon fulfillment of the following conditions, except when elsewhere

expressly prohibited:

(a) Regular Waivers were requested and cleared during the Playing Season Waiver

Period; and

(b) the Player has not played in ten (10) or more NHL Games cumulative since

Regular Waivers on him were last cleared, and more than thirty (30) days cumulative on an NHL

roster have not passed since Regular Waivers on him were last cleared."

These are directly from the CBA. I'll sum it up here regarding Callahan.

This article is about loaning players to minor league clubs who cleared waivers once, and when you have to pass them through waivers again. Basically, it's about exceptions to the waiver rules. It says a few different things. First, if a player is clears waivers and isn't sent down for 30 days or plays 10 games (whichever is sooner), he must pass through waivers again. Also, as Dickie has said, if he is clears, is sent down, recalled, and stays on the NHL roster for a cumulative 30 days or plays in 10 NHL games He must pass through waivers again. So, we could call him up once this month, once next month, twice in February, and 4 times in March without having to place him on waivers again as long as he is on the roster for less than 30 cumulative days and plays less than 10 games.

Also, as far Nestrasil, age of contract signing is the key for why Nestrasil's waiver exemption expired. He got 3 years of exemption because he signed at age 20. It had nothing to do with games played.

Ouellet has played 10 games, and signed at 19 (2012), so he got 4 years of exemption. His will expire after he plays 150 more games, or in 2016.

I can't get the formatting to copy over right, but here's a link to the CBA.

http://cdn.agilitycms.com/nhlpacom/PDF/NHL_NHLPA_2013_CBA.pdf

Waivers rules start on page 71.

Also, yes, I do think we can be contenders if everything falls into place. Everyone needs to play well. If we get back to playing solid defensive hockey, we don't seem to lose that often. We don't really win convincingly, but we don't lose either. That could pay dividends in the playoffs.

Edited December 4, 2014 by nawein

[krsmith17 7,191]

I'm not able to check right now but I still don't think what you're saying is correct Dickie. I'll have a look later. As for Callahan not being ready? I have no idea why you would think that. "He was slow, soft, looked lost with the puck, and didn't put forth great defensive effort"?... Are you kidding? Are you sure it was Callahan you were watching? Number 57? Because you just described number 18 to a t, minus maybe the defensive effort... Callahan would have been an upgrade over Andersson two months ago, he would be right now, and he most definitely will be in the future.

I guess that is correct DIckie. My apologies. Thanks nawein!

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Dickie and nawein are right on this one.

If a player clears, he can be sent to the minors, kept on the NHL roster or traded to another team.

A player who clears waivers does not require waivers again until they’ve spent 30 cumulative days on an NHL roster or played in 10 NHL games since they last cleared waivers. They can be recalled to the NHL and reassigned an unlimited amount of times as long as they don’t meet those requirements. Even if they’ve started accruing NHL days or NHL games, clearing waivers “re-sets the clock” as far as their waiver eligibility goes.

It has to be 30 cumulative days on an NHL roster. Days on a minor league roster do not count.

[e_prime 1,936]

So for example, we can send Cleary down and recall him without him having to pass through waivers because he hasn't played in 10 games this season?

Is that what I'm to understand? Waivers no longer (or at least for this season) have anything to do with number of years in the league, etc.?

Interesting.

f*** it. I'm reading the CBA.

Edited December 5, 2014 by e_prime

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

Cleary been on our active roster.

So no.

He'd pass through waivers.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

So for example, we can send Cleary down and recall him without him having to pass through waivers because he hasn't played in 10 games this season?

Is that what I'm to understand? Waivers no longer (or at least for this season) have anything to do with number of years in the league, etc.?

Interesting.

Years since you signed your contract and games played determine if you have to clear waivers. Every Wing but Jurco would have to clear them. Callahan has already been through waivers. Until he has been on the NHL roster 30 days or 10 games he does not have to clear waivers again. Cleary would go through waivers. Assuming he cleared they could recall him with the same time limits as Callahan and he would not have to clear waivers again. If they brought Callahan or Ferraro up tomorrow and kept them 30 days or 10 games they would have to go through waivers again.

[e_prime 1,936]

Starting to make sense. So, if Cleary --obviously well past any waiver exemptions from old CBA, etc. -- was waived/unclaimed at the begining of the season, like Callahan and Ferraro. Then we called him up for 3 games, then we sent him back down.

He wouldn't have to go through waivers?

I guess my next question is: Is this 10GP/30 Days on Roster just a wrinkle for this season or for the entirety of the current CBA?

[krsmith17 7,191]

Now that we have that cleared up... Call up Callahan while Abdelkader is out, if he doesn't earn his spot, we can send him down before his 10 games is up, if he does pan out, which I'm certain he will, trade Andersson for a late round pick...

[cnot19 191]

Now that we have that cleared up... Call up Callahan while Abdelkader is out, if he doesn't earn his spot, we can send him down before his 10 games is up, if he does pan out, which I'm certain he will, trade Andersson for a late round pick...

I'm in total agreement with that idea

[nawein 324]

Starting to make sense. So, if Cleary --obviously well past any waiver exemptions from old CBA, etc. -- was waived/unclaimed at the begining of the season, like Callahan and Ferraro. Then we called him up for 3 games, then we sent him back down.

He wouldn't have to go through waivers?

I guess my next question is: Is this 10GP/30 Days on Roster just a wrinkle for this season or for the entirety of the current CBA?

It's for the whole CBA, and yes, you are correct with your Cleary example.