Are the Wings a Contender?

[krsmith17 7,191]

There is no specific number of games that every individual should get. And yes, I agree that a player drafted later should get more time to develop, but Ericsson is long past the development process, and he has been much worse than Smith the first half of this season, but yet, for some unexplained reason, he gets a pass but Smith does not. Smith is still improving, and I see improvements in his game all the time. Just because you refuse to see it, doesn't mean it's not happening... Brendan Smith today is night and day compared to Brendan Smith one year ago.

Another thing, Smith isn't exactly getting the minutes or the linemates he needs to put up huge points. He looked great with both Kronwall and DeKeyser and I think if he were ever put back with DeKeyser on the second pair, we'd see a huge difference in his point totals. Do you think it's any coincidence that Quincey is starting to produce being paired with DeKeyser? I sure don't... Smith is now paired with Ouellet, and no matter how great LGW see Xavier, he is still just a rookie. I'm sure Smith plays a lot more tentative with Ouellet than he would with DeKeyser. Either way, he is playing bottom pairing and he is playing quite good in my opinion. Give him a better partner and more minutes and he will play better.

X 10 Echolalia!!!

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Exactly, at what point is he one of these? How old, and how many games, before he can no longer get a pass because he's got "potential"?

Also, saying he's better than Kindl isn't saying much. And yes, Ericsson should be given a longer leash. When you draft a guy dead last in the draft you assume it's going to take a while for him to develop. When you draft a guy in the first round you assume it won't take him as long. I don't that's too controversial a statement.

I'm still of the mindset that this team should package Smith for a legitimate Top 4, offensive defender. In saying that, I don't think that draft position should have much bearing, if any, on how much "leash" a player is given. I think guys have a certain number of years to prove their worth, and if they're not addressing a specific need on your team, they're probably not going to meet their potential.

IF I absolutely have to choose between two guys, I take the earlier pick 9/10 times. If I have two players who are putting up similar numbers, or playing a comparable defensive game, I give the edge to the guy drafted earlier. There's a reason he was drafted earlier - he's likely got some kind of edge over the later round pick, whether it be better skating, hockey IQ, defensive game, etc. Obviously, situations can differ based on what a team needs, how players mesh in a system, etc.

Don't get me wrong, some of those early round guys wind up being nothing more than minor league/major pro level players (Emmerton and McGrath come to mind). I think we've lucked out as fans of this team, with later round picks turning into gems. Generally, if you're choosing between two guys, I think you give the high picks more time than the lower ones to develop their game. If they find it, their upside is superior.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Jesusberg

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

I think this quote from Nyquist clears up at least part of what happened in that locker room.

"He's the one that raises his voice here in the intermission, tells us we're not good enough and he comes out and scores three and I'm assuming he had a couple assists too (just one), I don't know how many points, obviously led the way for us and that's what he does," Nyquist said. "We're lucky to have him."

via foxsports: http://www.foxsports.com/detroit/story/zetterberg-s-hat-trick-lifts-red-wings-over-sabres-011815

Can't be talking about Z, he isn't from Murica

[number9 3,297]

Can't be talking about Z, he isn't from Murica

Is it too much to ask to have a Murican captain a Murican team?

DAY TUK ER JERBS

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Is it too much to ask to have a Murican captain a Murican team?

DAY TUK ER JERBS

The next captain is going to be American, anyway. I can see it now...

"And, your captain. From Grand Rapids, Michigan. Wearing number 41... Luke... Glendeniiing."

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

The next captain is going to be American, anyway. I can see it now...

"And, your captain. From Grand Rapids, Michigan. Wearing number 41... Luke... Glendeniiing."

Babcock can only dream

[TheXym 2,606]

Keep Smith with Kronwall like last night and things will start looking better for him again.

I've said this several times. They had great chemistry last season when they were paired while Ericsson was injured.

[kipwinger 8,524]

There is no specific number of games that every individual should get. And yes, I agree that a player drafted later should get more time to develop, but Ericsson is long past the development process, and he has been much worse than Smith the first half of this season, but yet, for some unexplained reason, he gets a pass but Smith does not. Smith is still improving, and I see improvements in his game all the time. Just because you refuse to see it, doesn't mean it's not happening... Brendan Smith today is night and day compared to Brendan Smith one year ago.

Another thing, Smith isn't exactly getting the minutes or the linemates he needs to put up huge points. He looked great with both Kronwall and DeKeyser and I think if he were ever put back with DeKeyser on the second pair, we'd see a huge difference in his point totals. Do you think it's any coincidence that Quincey is starting to produce being paired with DeKeyser? I sure don't... Smith is now paired with Ouellet, and no matter how great LGW see Xavier, he is still just a rookie. I'm sure Smith plays a lot more tentative with Ouellet than he would with DeKeyser. Either way, he is playing bottom pairing and he is playing quite good in my opinion. Give him a better partner and more minutes and he will play better.

X 10 Echolalia!!!

Well like Mike Babcock likes to say, you've got to earn more minutes and better linemates. If Brendan Smith isn't getting the minutes or the linemates, it's because Babs doesn't think he deserves them. Should be be gifted more opportunities just because? I mean, ALL players will produce more with more minutes and better linemates. That's a truism. Doesn't mean you deserve them though. Clearly the coach doesn't think he does.

I hadn't realized Smith was playing particularly bad this season. He has mistakes here and there, but so does Quincey, Dekeyser, Oulette, Kindl, Lashoff, Ericsson, and Kronwall. Its funny how often Kronwall turns the puck over in the defensive zone, and yet its almost exclusively Smith that people latch onto and obsess over.

Oh, Smith screws up just as much as everyone else eh? So why's he on the third pair? Did Babs just arbitrarily decide Smith would be down there, despite being just as good as everyone else?

Of course not.

Brendan Smith is on the third pair because he's not a better defenseman than Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, or Quincey. Which, coincidentally, is why people focus on him more. Because he's not as good. And screws up more often.

That, or Mike "Greatest Coach in the League" Babcock is actively trying to make this team worse because he doesn't like Smith.

Edited January 19, 2015 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

Kip, it fits your argument this time does it? You're really going to say that Babcock always gives his players appropriate ice time? He never demotes players for absolutely no explainable reason? Seriously? What about Weiss? Smith has proved time and time again that he deserves more minutes, he deserves to be on the second line, he deserves to be on the second power-play unit. But he is not. Why? Because... Mike Babcock...

Yes, all players should produce more when playing with better players and in situations to their strengths, and Smith has produced in these situations, but yet, he's still not getting permanent duty.

And yes, when Kronwall screws up, most of the time it does go unnoticed by fans, or at least not endlessly bitched about, whereas if Smith screws up, you never hear the end of it. I'm not blind to Smith's screw ups. I see when he screws up, but I see a lot more good that he's doing out there than bad, and that scale is being tipped more and more each and every game. He is improving immensely whether you want to see it or not...

[Echolalia 2,961]

Well like Mike Babcock likes to say, you've got to earn more minutes and better linemates. If Brendan Smith isn't getting the minutes or the linemates, it's because Babs doesn't think he deserves them. Should be be gifted more opportunities just because? I mean, ALL players will produce more with more minutes and better linemates. That's a truism. Doesn't mean you deserve them though. Clearly the coach doesn't think he does.

Oh, Smith screws up just as much as everyone else eh? So why's he on the third pair? Did Babs just arbitrarily decide Smith would be down there, despite being just as good as everyone else?

Of course not.

Brendan Smith is on the third pair because he's not a better defenseman than Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, or Quincey. Which, coincidentally, is why people focus on him more. Because he's not as good. And screws up more often.

That, or Mike "Greatest Coach in the League" Babcock is actively trying to make this team worse because he doesn't like Smith. I'm sure that's it.

I can only focus on one of your obsessions at a time, so pick Babcock or Smith and lets just stick with one subject for the time being.

Yes, with just under two seasons of NHL experience, Smith is currently playing on the third line. I'm not sure why this is so blasphemous. Or is it because he was drafted in the first round that somehow means he needs to be a top 3 defenseman at this point in his career? And to be completely honest, I think its a good place for him to play given where he is in his development and where he can contribute the best for the team. Out of all the Wings' defensman, Smith is fourth behind Kronwall, Eriksson, and Kindl for giveaways/game, but Eriksson is a late round pick so I guess he doesn't count, and both Eriksson and Kronwall are on the first line, so apparently they're just better and we should ignore their screwups. Smith, however is our best defensman when it comes to takeaways per game, and he's also the best defensman in giveaway/takeaway ratio. We've heard repeatedly that Babcock assesses performance on who has the puck after you, and who has the puck before you. By this data Smith is doing quite well where he's placed in the roster because he's doing more for his team on the third line when it comes to gaining puck possession than any other defender is on any other line. So keep him where he's helping the team out the most, and if an injury should happen to someone in the top four and Smith gets his chance to reproduce his value on a different line then good for him. If not, he's still playing effective, possession-based hockey where he's at, and steadily improving as well. And in the meantime people will continue to focus exclusively on Smith when he happens to lose the puck apparently because he's a third line defensman. I personally prefer looking at all defensman (or any player for that matter) objectively and analyzing their play accordingly, regardless of what line they happen to play on or where they were drafted.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Echolalia

[Red Crazy 201]

I have thought that Kronwall has been very shaky at times this year. He makes a lot of poor choices when he has the puck. However I think Ericsson has been awful. I wonder if the Oilers would take him and a pick for Petry? likely wishful thinking.

[joesuffP 1,746]

Lmao so Smith is the 2nd best defensemen on this team suddenly? He was a hot turd last night, all well having an easy matchup and not contributing any offensive chances at all. You gotta give E and Kronwall some slack sometimes. They have the toughest matchups and play the most minutes night in night out. Smith's idea of good games are when he isn't getting beat all night and stacking up minuses against weak matchups, all while not scoring mind you. So yeah, he's not exactly ready to be our go to guy on the top pairing. He's not even ready for a top 4 role consistently

[number9 3,297]

Starting to lose a lil faith in Smith myself. He probably has better years ahead of him, but I don't see that being anything better than a #4 D-man at this point. He's not shown he's particularly good on any side of the puck, and he's been with the team longer than most of our young talent. He and Kindl both have not lived up to their hype.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

He was awesome until his injury.

And to be honest, i havent been watching smith all that closely lately.

[krsmith17 7,191]

What are you talking about joesuff? Who said anything about Smith being our second best defenseman??? No one...

Did you even watch the game? Seriously?... Smith played one of his better games Sunday night, playing more minutes than anyone not named Kronwall, and he only played 12 seconds less than him...

People cannot be serious about Ericsson playing better than Smith right now, Ericsson has been a giveaway machine, and Smith has been quite steady. Like Echolalia pointed out, he has the best takeaway/giveaway ratio of any of our defense, so this giveaway thing that people always go to, is completely false. Was he a year ago? Absolutely but it's time he shakes that moniker. Yup, he sure is "stacking up minuses", at a horrendous even +/- rating... People just spew s*** to "try" to make their point, not thinking that anyone else actually watch the games and know better...

I guess people are just sour because Smith was supposed to put up huge points, just because he did prior to the NHL. Well guess what? It happens. The number of players, both defense and forwards, that put up huge numbers in junior and the American League, and then can't get it done at the NHL level, is astounding. Most players that hit the brick wall in point production, can't adjust their game and eventually fade out and end up as career AHLers or go over seas, Smith is adjusting quite well. He has been rounding out his game, changing from a pure offensive minded defenseman to a decent two-way defender. The offense will come, just be patient. Defense is by far the most difficult position to play at the NHL level, and for a player trying to change his style of play on the fly, it's definitely not easy. You put Brendan Smith in any other organization and I guarantee he would be a 30+ point producer. Babcock has no doubt, stunted his offensive production but I think in the end, he will be a better player because of it.

Smith is not a problem here, he is and will be just fine. We have bigger things to worry about than Brendan Smith....

[joesuffP 1,746]

I said this because people think Smith should be playing with Kronwall and get PP minutes. Smith gets the easiest match ups night in night out and is still inconsistent. Him just playing "solid" on the third pairing is not good enough for a big promotion, especially since he doesn't score or create a lot of offensive chances, and he's not even "solid" night in night out yet. I don't think Smith sucks at all but he is more often than not, our 5th best defensemen. I want to see him step up his role on this team as well but let's not jump the gun

[krsmith17 7,191]

Definitely not more deserving of being paired with Kronwall than Ericsson... Nope. Ericsson has been fantastic this season. The bottom line is, Smith has looked great at two specific time periods so far in his young career, when he was paired with Kronwall last season, and when he was paired with DeKeyser earlier this season. What does that tell you? Nothing? Okay...

Also, with Smith's very limited power-play time in the past year and a half, he has been able to produce. He makes things happen when he's out there on the power-play. Believe it or not, he actually produces more than any of our defensemen on the power-play, when taking into account minutes played. I know it's a small sample size at just 12 minutes this season, but that's exactly why he needs more of an opportunity...

[nawein 324]

As much as I'd like to, I'm not going to sit here and bash Smith. This season I would say he's our 4th or 5th best dman on any given night, depending on how much Ericsson sucks that day. But that's not saying much considering the current lackluster defense that we have.

As far as krsmiths argument that "he's looked good with Kronwall" that's not really the point. Ian White looked great with Lidstrom. As did Ericsson for the shory stint they were together. Kronwall looks good most nights no matter who he's with. So does Dekeyser. Smith, not so much. I think we were all hopeful that Smith would be a player that makes who he's playing with look good, and not the other way around. Could he turn into that? Sure, he definitely has the potential to turn into that. And that's why we should trade him and his potential in a package for the type of player we hope he'll become. A player that is that today and can help now.

[krsmith17 7,191]

You're not seriously comparing Lidstrom to Kronwall are you? While Lidstrom was capable in making Ian White look like an actual NHL defenseman, Kronwall would not, he would look more like, well... Ian White, a bum... Don't get me wrong, I like Kronwall and he is a pretty damn good defenseman, but not even in the same league as Lidstrom, not many are. I don't believe there are many defenseman in the league today that can make their partner look that much better, and certainly not Kronwall or DeKeyser. Smith looks better with those two because he plays a different game, he feels more comfortable in that role, which is exactly why I believe he would benefit from power-play time.

Exactly "we were all hopeful"... Smith isn't progressing quite as fast as people would have liked, so quick, trade him... Crazy...

The potential is there, and no one can deny that, and that is exactly why he won't be going anywhere.

[Smite 399]

Big E and Kronner play of of each others strengths and weaknesses. Kronwall is good in the corners, breaking out pass and has ok offensive talent. Kronwall is weak at clearing out the front of the net. Ericsson is a beast in front of his own net and is very discipline doing it, but don't let him pass the puck because its going to be a turnover.

I think Smitty and Kronner would boost offense on the back end but be a liability down low. Scoring 5 goals a game lately I do not see a need,

This is my .02

[nawein 324]

I was comparing them in the fact that they make whoever they're playing with better. Yes, because that's true.

We're a pretty good hockey team. We have a lot of defenseman coming up. We don't have time to wait for him to progress slowly. He's not terrible, which is why he has trade value. He is however, very expendable. If he can be moved in a package to get a legit top 4 guy today, ie Yandle or another top 4 in his prime, and you don't do it, you're crazy. I believe we're a legit top 4 dman away from being legitimate contenders and Smith could be a key piece to getting that guy. That's my point.

He's not bad right now. He's not really all that good right now either. He's okay. He has potential. We have replacements. He's expendable. He should be moved. Will it happen? No, but I think it should.

And for the record, I wouldn't be opposed to trying him on the powerplay if our powerplay wasn't currently awesome.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I'm not sold on having Smith on the powerplay. At the beginning of the year I wanted to see it (and did, for a little bit), but as a defensman in our PP scheme, I think it crucial to be able to get shots through traffic with some consistently. Kronwall can do this, Kindl can do this, but after that things drop off quite a bit. Quincey has been lucky lately but I don't think its representative of his skill. Smith's offensive ability I think comes more from his eagerness to join the rush, or slip into the slot/weak side during a defensive breakdown. These things don't happen on the power play when the other team is playing a tight box or diamond between the faceoff dots.

[krsmith17 7,191]

I disagree. I don't think Kronwall is the type of defenseman that is capable in making his partner that much better. There are very few in the league that can, some include Sutter, Weber, Doughty, Pietrangelo, Chara (as much as it pains me to say it), Kronwall is not in the group in my opinion...

Smith is expendable because we have other young guys coming up? That's ridiculous. Guess what? Whether one wants to admit it or not, Smith is further along in his development and is currently better than our most NHL ready defenseman, Ouellet. If you think otherwise, remember how good most players are when they first enter the league before they finally come back down to earth, including Smith. Brendan entered the league getting 2 assists in his first 3 games, a goal and 2 assists in his first 5 games, a goal and 4 assists in his first 8 games... Ouellet currently has a goal and an assist in his first 22 games... The learning curve for NHL defensemen is extremely steep, and you want to trade away a guy that is finally starting to get it, and start all over again with a rookie? Like I keep saying, I'm glad Holland is smarter than that...

People always think that the next guy coming up is going to be better, well no he's not, not for a few years at least, unless he's a generational talent, which we don't have... Smith hasn't quite met expectations since he entered the league but he is improving game by game, and that's all you can really ask. He will get there. His game from a year ago, is night and day from what it is now, and it will be again this time next year.

Anyway, Smith isn't going anywhere so I'm done with this...

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Smith is still only 25, which is young by NHL defense standards. He has talent, he's improving, he should continue to improve. As it is, he's a decent 2nd pairing D right now, and is on the 3rd pair more because of how Babcock wants the other pairings to shake out than how he's playing.

If they can move Smith as part of a package to get a legit improvement, the Wings should do it. The players like that who are available are few and far between, though. Yandle. Myers maybe. Definitely not Petry.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

Smith is better than Ouellet right now, but I think you can argue that XO has a higher hockey IQ, and handles the puck better in tight situations. Here's the issue - what's the end game with Smith? Do you see him moving past being a #5 on this team in the next season?

Honestly, I think as long as the PP stays in its current format, Smith doesn't stand a chance of sniffing PP time. With its success, they aren't changing it anytime soon. Kronwall isn't going anywhere on the 1st unit, and DeKeyser doesn't make many mistakes handling the puck (sometimes, it seems like zero).

Let's push ahead to the 2016-17 season, when Quincey and Lashoff should be off this team. Chances are one of Sproul or Jensen is on this team, and most likely given PP time because of their handedness. Marchenko may even be given a look on the PP. At this point, has Smith developed into a more defensive oriented guy? I think that's what he's likely going to have to become. He may very well be in the Top 4 (Kronwall, Ericsson, DeKeyser, Smith), but is Ouellet knocking on the door?

Ericsson is going to have to mess up royally to be knocked down the depth chart on a permanent basis (he's already back up with Kronwall). Babcock's on record saying that he believes DeKeyser-Quincey has been the team's best pairing. If Smith can play effectively in a Top 4 role, he's going to be hard pressed to prove it. I just really think at this point, you try to cash in on Smith's value. He may have the ability, but it's looking less likely that he'll be able to show that ability on this team.

Edit: And don't get me wrong. I understand that Smith is only 25. People talk about Jensen like he's a prospect, and yet he's only a year younger than Smith. It's easy to forget that Smith isn't closer to 28. My point is, even though his development isn't over, it's looking like he's in a tough place on this team.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jesusberg