Jimmy sucks in a shootout Howard

[AtlantaHotWings 982]

To add a bit of Babcock into the discussion........

Eventually we'll solve the problem," Babcock said. "But we're not going to let it get in the way of how we feel about our team or the direction that we're going, because in the end they still don't have the shootout in the playoffs."

In Babs I trust and his desire is to win the game before we get to the skills competition.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Last I checked there were no shootouts in the playoffs. /thread

No, they just have continuous overtimes.

Where we unfortunately also suck.

[nawein 324]

No, they just have continuous overtimes.

Where we unfortunately also suck.

We're 2-2 in games that ended in overtime this year so you can't really say we suck.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

There may be no shoot outs in the playoffs but the shoo touts count for points. If you don't win it, you lose that point you would have gained if you had won the game. They can add up.

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

We're 2-2 in games that ended in overtime this year so you can't really say we suck.

I was talking about our playoff overtime history.

[rick zombo 3,739]

I was talking about our playoff overtime history.

Not sure how far back you wish to go but they're 3-2 in OT in the last two playoffs.

[kipwinger 8,518]

Ugh. I hate how cavalier Babs is about the shootout. Sure, there's no shootout in the playoffs. But there is a shootout in the regular season, and that determines your playoff position. If we'd won a few more of those shootouts last year we'd have played a Bishop-less Tampa Bay instead of getting mauled by the Bruins (who would have had to play the team that eventually beat them in the first round).

So maybe take the shootout a little more seriously.

Also, can we all agree to stop with the "skills competition" reference? It's dumb. Firstly because it's no more of a skills competition than the proposed 3 on 3 that's being bandied as a replacement. Think about it, throwing Dats-Tatar-Smith on the ice to finish overtime ISN'T all about skill? I'm sure Ovie and Stamkos (who will have a zillion goals if there's only three people on the ice) would agree. Secondly, I'd imagine that it's this exact same "skill competition" mentality that makes Babs so indifferent to it. He acts like it's some sideshow to be endured, rather than a part of the game that's costing us points. Part of the reason why, I suspect, is because he refuses to think of it as an integral part of a winning season because a "skills competition" can't be all that important can it? The whole narrative works to undermine the credibility of a shootout, and by not thinking of it credibly, our coaching staff doesn't prioritize it.

[BottleOfSmoke 5,965]

Ugh. I hate how cavalier Babs is about the shootout. Sure, there's no shootout in the playoffs. But there is a shootout in the regular season, and that determines your playoff position. If we'd won a few more of those shootouts last year we'd have played a Bishop-less Tampa Bay instead of getting mauled by the Bruins (who would have had to play the team that eventually beat them in the first round).

So maybe take the shootout a little more seriously.

Also, can we all agree to stop with the "skills competition" reference? It's dumb. Firstly because it's no more of a skills competition than the proposed 3 on 3 that's being bandied as a replacement. Think about it, throwing Dats-Tatar-Smith on the ice to finish overtime ISN'T all about skill? I'm sure Ovie and Stamkos (who will have a zillion goals if there's only three people on the ice) would agree. Secondly, I'd imagine that it's this exact same "skill competition" mentality that makes Babs so indifferent to it. He acts like it's some sideshow to be endured, rather than a part of the game that's costing us points. Part of the reason why, I suspect, is because he refuses to think of it as an integral part of a winning season because a "skills competition" can't be all that important can it? The whole narrative works to undermine the credibility of a shootout, and by not thinking of it credibly, our coaching staff doesn't prioritize it.

Stop thinking about things so hard, kip. Pull up a chair, grab a PBR, and have a wobbly pop with me and my good buddy Mandela Nelson. Did you know he scored 60 goals in juniors?

'Murica

[Ekmanc 586]

I agree. Also, without accounting for variables, shoot outs are much more difficult for the goalie.

Much more difficult than for whom? Generally the goalie has the advantage over the shooter in a shootout situation.

And maybe we can add breakaways to this btw, how many did we miss against Toronto yesterday??

[The Greek 323]

Much more difficult than for whom? Generally the goalie has the advantage over the shooter in a shootout situation.

And maybe we can add breakaways to this btw, how many did we miss against Toronto yesterday??

The puck travels at a speed that is faster than the goalie's reaction. Everything a goalie does, especially on a breakaway/shoot out, is done in anticipation of what the goalie thinks the shooter is going to do.

[Ekmanc 586]

The puck travels at a speed that is faster than the goalie's reaction. Everything a goalie does, especially on a breakaway/shoot out, is done in anticipation of what the goalie thinks the shooter is going to do.

Of course but the goalie still has the advantage, it's much much easier to save a shootout than to score on one.

[The Greek 323]

Of course but the goalie still has the advantage, it's much much easier to save a shootout than to score on one.

How is that so? The goalie has to account for numerous possibilities, only one of which is the right one. That's why goaltending is so hard. None of these guys are reacting to shots. Instead, they're acting preemptively based on what they think is going to happen. The goalie has to always be a half step ahead of the puck carrier. On shoot outs and breakaways, the shooter has the benefit of changing his approach based on what the goalie does.

[Guest DeGraa55]

Ugh. I hate how cavalier Babs is about the shootout. Sure, there's no shootout in the playoffs. But there is a shootout in the regular season, and that determines your playoff position. If we'd won a few more of those shootouts last year we'd have played a Bishop-less Tampa Bay instead of getting mauled by the Bruins (who would have had to play the team that eventually beat them in the first round).

So maybe take the shootout a little more seriously.

Also, can we all agree to stop with the "skills competition" reference? It's dumb. Firstly because it's no more of a skills competition than the proposed 3 on 3 that's being bandied as a replacement. Think about it, throwing Dats-Tatar-Smith on the ice to finish overtime ISN'T all about skill? I'm sure Ovie and Stamkos (who will have a zillion goals if there's only three people on the ice) would agree. Secondly, I'd imagine that it's this exact same "skill competition" mentality that makes Babs so indifferent to it. He acts like it's some sideshow to be endured, rather than a part of the game that's costing us points. Part of the reason why, I suspect, is because he refuses to think of it as an integral part of a winning season because a "skills competition" can't be all that important can it? The whole narrative works to undermine the credibility of a shootout, and by not thinking of it credibly, our coaching staff doesn't prioritize it.

I completely agree. 3 on 3 is a a skills competition as well...

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Not sure how far back you wish to go but they're 3-2 in OT in the last two playoffs.

3-3 actually.

How about if we just look back to Howard's career. He's under .500 in playoff OT's. Of course, that's a team thing also.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

I think we all know what has to happen in shoot-outs now...

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Yep.

[roboturner 562]

Of course its totally acceptable to call out anyone who gives the puck away and it leads to a goal. Everyone does it reguarly in the GDT, including when Howard does it. Hell, this whole thread was made to bash Howard in the shootout and here we all are. As far as I'm aware, nobody ever bashed on you or your posts for doing that. What people disagree with is relying on a "statistic" that is entirely subjective as an objective way to rate a goalie, especially when its clear that you're not interested in comparing him to the rest of the league, but rather trying to paint him in a bad light. "Bad pass" was never defined, neither were a handful of other statistics that you came up with. Who decides what pass is considered "bad" or not? You? And even if you came to some objective way to quantify a bad pass goal, there exists absolutely zero data on any other goaltender in the history of the NHL in these statistical categoreis, so any values that are obtained, whether objective or otherwise, still have no value because there's no way to define what's considered an acceptable range/poor range for bad pass goals or whatever else you were looking at. Maybe Howard actually has the best bad pass goals against in the league. But all you were interested in was counting how many times he let those goals in, and not determining how that value compared to other goalies. As for the next part of your post, wherein you bring up "really bad starts" from that website: Its a s***ty name for a statistic (and it also made me lol), but in the website they clearly quantify "really bad start" as "A performance where the goaltender failed to attain even an .850 save percentage." That's objective. Under their definition, nobody can argue whether Howard has a "really bad start" or not. The author of that post is also using his statistics to compare different starts of Howard throughout a season/career and then coming up with a conclusion after the values have been analyzed. What he didn't do is come to his conclusion first, then make up stats to try to support his predetermined conclusion.

ANYWAY I think Howard's problem is just as psychological as the rest of the Wings at this point. They all expect to lose, and teams that verse us in the SO expect to win. And it shows in their body language. We aren't seeing those creative dekes (or any dekes), and everyone is more comfortable just shooting the puck. I'm not a goalie so I don't know how to read a goalie's body language as well, but I imagine that Howard isn't playing the shootout with a lot of confidence right now. Maybe that means he's playing too tight to the net, or he's trying to react instead of predict too much, or vice versa. All I know is that he hasn't always been this poor.

Thank you. You're the first person to actually answer me after asking 5 or so times. And you made good points, too!

I guess it wasn't defined, but I didn't think it really needed to be. Although that could have been discussed if anybody had actually wanted to. But it quickly got outta hand with people taking what was supposed to be a humorous look at some of his stats (e.g. games north of the mason-dixon line whose home team doesn't play in a dome) as well as a look at his ranking for 'real' stats that were atrocious last year, and taking it way to ******* seriously because apparently Howard has a persecution complex (or at least his fans do).

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Should have switched to Mrazek tonight.

[wings_fanatic 677]

What an awful game. Just flat out awful. Our D were AWFUL at outlet passes tonight and that just threw our game off. Please someone tell me WHY KINDL IS STILL ON THIS TEAM?!?!?!

Franzen invisible again tonight, at least zetty looked a lot better i thought.

Florida got a LOT of puck luck tonight. The puck always seemed to bounce towards their sticks and such. The Refs were awful. Florida got away with a lot of interferene and holding, a clear high stick on zetty, a hook on helm while he was in all alone.

All in all, it was just an awful game and I will happily take the 1 point and hopefully the wings go into toronto tomorrow night and destroy them.

Also, Jimmy needs to be taken out for shootouts. He just can't make saves and players are scoring on him too easily.

[roboturner 562]

This was before tonight, so now he's at 3 saves out of 12

http://redwingsfront.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/howard-falls-to-0-4-in-shootouts-making-three-saves-on-10-shots-in-skills-competition/

[rick zombo 3,739]

3-3 actually.

How about if we just look back to Howard's career. He's under .500 in playoff OT's. Of course, that's a team thing also.

My bad. I overlooked the Bs series all together.

Considering this team is under 500 in the playoffs the last two seasons I think the OT record is just a reflection of his, par for the course, more than stand-out issue. If anything they’re better in OT than they are in general.

Edited December 13, 2014 by rick zombo

[barabbas16 499]

Maybe he's letting the puck in when he moves. Perhaps he should just stay completely still and some pucks will happen to hit him.

[number9 3,297]

This was before tonight, so now he's at 3 saves out of 12

http://redwingsfront.wordpress.com/2014/12/11/howard-falls-to-0-4-in-shootouts-making-three-saves-on-10-shots-in-skills-competition/

What's his bad pass goal % at? (Assuming you've been tracking this)

[Wings_Toledo 233]

I completely agree. 3 on 3 is a a skills competition as well...

I'm starting to think that Babcock's attitude about the shootout is starting to rub off on the team. They don't really seem to be trying very hard. This has to be some kind of conspiracy to make the shootout less interesting and get Kenny's 3 on 3 idea through.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Wings_Toledo

[Ekmanc 586]

How is that so? The goalie has to account for numerous possibilities, only one of which is the right one. That's why goaltending is so hard. None of these guys are reacting to shots. Instead, they're acting preemptively based on what they think is going to happen. The goalie has to always be a half step ahead of the puck carrier. On shoot outs and breakaways, the shooter has the benefit of changing his approach based on what the goalie does.

Yeah that's no true, there are hundreds of ways to make the save in a shootout. It's not a lottery where one move is right and every other move is wrong. The goalies save more than 50% of shootouts usually and they defnitely have the edge. Try saving one vs scoring one yourself and see which you find easiest.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstats.htm?fetchKey=20152ALLSAZAll&sort=gamesPlayed&viewName=summary

Aka goalies have a CLEAR advantage in shootouts, well unless that goalie happens to be Howard...