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Hockeytown0001

12/19 GDT : Islanders 2 at Red Wings 1

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I've said many times his drafting is the best in te business.

But his free agent signings are decent and trades and roster management is quite poor.

The fact that Babcock wants ouellette and holland won't keep him on the team blows my mind.

I completely disagree with that. A GM who is poor at UFA signings and trading, is a GM who makes bad trades and signs stupid contracts (ie. Philly).

Pulling off a good move as a GM is an obvious trait that makes you a good GM, but not making stupid moves may even be more important. Just wait until July 1st and wait to see all the awful signings, it's mind blowing. Luckily, Holland knows when to stop in the negotiation process which is why we rarely get stuck with horrible contracts.

Ive said the before and I will say it again, the fact that Holland's "worst" moves are trading essentially Andrei Vasilevski for Kyle Quincey, resigning Quincey, and promising to sign Cleary after his playoff run in 2012 shows how good he is. These are not moves that cripple a team.

If you are a fan who needs immediate gratification, or Blockbuster moves, go become a Philly fan because your not going to get it with Holland, and I for one am happy about that.

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Guest DeGraa55

I completely disagree with that. A GM who is poor at UFA signings and trading, is a GM who makes bad trades and signs stupid contracts (ie. Philly).

Pulling off a good move as a GM is an obvious trait that makes you a good GM, but not making stupid moves may even be more important. Just wait until July 1st and wait to see all the awful signings, it's mind blowing. Luckily, Holland knows when to stop in the negotiation process which is why we rarely get stuck with horrible contracts.

Ive said the before and I will say it again, the fact that Holland's "worst" moves are trading essentially Andrei Vasilevski for Kyle Quincey, resigning Quincey, and promising to sign Cleary after his playoff run in 2012 shows how good he is. These are not moves that cripple a team.

If you are a fan who needs immediate gratification, or Blockbuster moves, go become a Philly fan because your not going to get it with Holland, and I for one am happy about that.

First round for Quincey

Resign Quincey

Resign cleary

Sign tootoo for three years and not play put him on roster

Sign colo for 2 years

Bringing back Sammy again

Trading top 2 or 3 prospect for rental center

Franzen deal...

Clearly no bad contracts at all.

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First round for Quincey

Resign Quincey

Resign cleary

Sign tootoo for three years and not play put him on roster

Sign colo for 2 years

Bringing back Sammy again

Trading top 2 or 3 prospect for rental center

Franzen deal...

Clearly no bad contracts at all.

Actually he said not crippling. Technically he was right. None of those moves crippled the team. We all hated the Sammy signing, but he did play good in Detroit the first time around. Cleary sucksbut but he doesn't even play unless he is covering for an injury. Colo Was good but injury prone. Still not a crippling contract. I believe he was referring more to those 7 year $40 million dollars contracts thrown around. And for the love of God franzen was not a bad contract and probably won't ever cripple the team cap wise at under $4million

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You could very well argue that the Sammy and Tootoo signings both indeed were crippling. They didn't trash our team completely but do you remember the rosterspot log-jams and cap-problems of these days ? If thats not crippling what is ?

Edited by derblaueClaus

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Guest DeGraa55

You could very well argue that the Sammy and Tootoo signings both indeed were crippling. They didn't trash our team completely but do you remember the rosterspot log-jams and cap-problems of these days ? If thats not crippling what is ?

Exactly. I mean ya those 2 or 3 year deals for broken over the hill useless players was def not crippling it int forced nyquist and Tatar to remain in the minors for a year or two longer than they should've.

or how about the fact he offered those long term crap contracts to suter and parise. Suter would've made them better but those are the contracts that hurt you down the road.

How about kindl? He could easily be waved or dumped for nothing to allow ouellette to be on this team but holland refuses to...why?

Edited by DeGraa55

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Exactly or how about the fact he offered those long term crap contracts to suter and parise. Suter would've made them better but those are the contracts that hurt you down the road.

How about kindl? He could easily be waved or dumped for nothing to allow ouellette to be on this team but holland refuses to...why?

Oh I'm not denying the stupidity of the contracts he handed out or the crippling contracts he offered like candy that were turned down. But I was referring to the fact that no one ended up getting long term crippling contracts, despite his best efforts

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Guest DeGraa55

Oh I'm not denying the stupidity of the contracts he handed out or the crippling contracts he offered like candy that were turned down. But I was referring to the fact that no one ended up getting long term crippling contracts, despite his best efforts

So you would say he made short term crippling decisions but not long term? That sounds about right to me...except for potentially franzens, z or kronwalls if they decide to retire early.

Edited by DeGraa55

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So you would say he made short term crippling decisions but not long term? That sounds about right to me...except for potentially franzens, z or kronwalls if they decide to retire early.

Technically yes. But at the time of signing that ridiculous rule did not exist so the team wouldn't have been penalized for them retiring early. So they weren't bad at the time of signing

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Holland simply has lost it's fire and passion. Guy used to be the by far best GM in the damn league. People may or may not like it but the post Z and Pasha era will be a tough one because centers - especially such elite ones - are hard to come by. If Larkin can turn into a solid second line center I would be very happy but I for sure don't expect him to be anything close to these two.

Holland has his work cut out for him and if the Wings are losing Babcock too his job won't get any easier. Also it would have been a wise move to build a more balanced team not just skill over anything and then having hardtime against hard nosed teams that play a shutdown game.

Edited by frankgrimes

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Holland simply has lost it's fire and passion. Guy used to be the by far best GM in the damn league. People may or may not like it but the post Z and Pasha era will be a tough one because centers - especially such elite ones - are hard to come by. If Larkin can turn into a solid second line center I would be very happy but I for sure don't expect him to be anything close to these two.

Holland has his work cut out for him and if the Wings are losing Babcock too his job won't get any easier. Also it would have been a wise move to build a more balanced team not just skill over anything and then having hardtime against hard nosed teams that play a shutdown game.

Hopefully you'll get one of ur pleasant surprises

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First round for Quincey

Resign Quincey

Resign cleary

Sign tootoo for three years and not play put him on roster

Sign colo for 2 years

Bringing back Sammy again

Trading top 2 or 3 prospect for rental center

Franzen deal...

Clearly no bad contracts at all.

Give me a break.

All of this seems like extreme belly-aching.

Most of these issues are slight hiccups. Not crippling long term or short term.

Is Quincey worth a first... probably not. ...but would Holland have drafted a first round pick anyway... probably not.

He would have traded it for two 2nd rounders and then traded one of those second round picks for two more third rounders.

Get over Cleary. He's on the roster until he's ready to be done. Just like Maltby. Just like Draper. Suck it up. He's not even playing.

Tootoo wasn't played by Babcock... not Holland. Point the blame in the right direction, sir.

Then he, along with Colo were bought out. Would have been Sammy if he wasn't injured...

...and please, let's not pretend like other GMs don't resign guys that they're familiar with.

And I'm sorry, but Franzen is worth his cap hit. Am I enamored with his play all of the time? No. I'm sure Holland isn't either but

Holland certainly didn't know that the latest CBA would include a cap recapture clause that would make that Franzen deal a little less digestable.

Exactly. I mean ya those 2 or 3 year deals for broken over the hill useless players was def not crippling it int forced nyquist and Tatar to remain in the minors for a year or two longer than they should've.

or how about the fact he offered those long term crap contracts to suter and parise. Suter would've made them better but those are the contracts that hurt you down the road.

How about kindl? He could easily be waved or dumped for nothing to allow ouellette to be on this team but holland refuses to...why?

So. Now he's in the wrong for trying to get Suter and Parise? He just can't win. Worst GM ever.

Kindl isn't waived because Ken Holland understands the need for depth... and he's not just going to give away a guy that's signed for a few years at a reasonable price.

So you would say he made short term crippling decisions but not long term? That sounds about right to me...except for potentially franzens, z or kronwalls if they decide to retire early.

:g:

Except... except... except... Yes. All those "what if's" we should be considering.

Regarding last night's game: What is up with Mrazek getting so far out of net on multiple plays? Does he always do that? Does anyone else have a heart-attack whenever he does? Should I not worry so much?

Edited by e_prime

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Yes we lost cause of Franzen.

Yes. We lose a lot of games because he is useless without the puck and pretty useless even with it this year. I know you love him and his cap hit to death and everything but at some point you have to admit he stinks right now and as nice as 08 and 09 were he shouldn't be here throwing an anchor down on every line he is on especially with the energy we have from the young guys.

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Yes. We lose a lot of games because he is useless without the puck and pretty useless even with it this year. I know you love him and his cap hit to death and everything but at some point you have to admit he stinks right now and as nice as 08 and 09 were he shouldn't be here throwing an anchor down on every line he is on especially with the energy we have from the young guys.

Agreed. If he hadn't played last night we definitely would have won.

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Yes. We lose a lot of games because he is useless without the puck and pretty useless even with it this year. I know you love him and his cap hit to death and everything but at some point you have to admit he stinks right now and as nice as 08 and 09 were he shouldn't be here throwing an anchor down on every line he is on especially with the energy we have from the young guys.

So we should have scratched Franzen in favor of everybody's other favorite... Danny Cleary.

Totally would have won the game with Clears in. He's got no knees... BUT HE'S GOT HEART!! SOMETHING FRANZEN NEVER HAD!!

:bye:

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First round for Quincey

Resign Quincey

Resign cleary

Sign tootoo for three years and not play put him on roster

Sign colo for 2 years

Bringing back Sammy again

Trading top 2 or 3 prospect for rental center

Franzen deal...

Clearly no bad contracts at all.

e_prime said it best "Most of these issues are slight hiccups. Not crippling long term or short term."

NO GM is perfect, not every contract on your team is going to work out exactly as you hoped. These are such small moves you are complaining about, which is exactly my point. When it comes to important stuff (keeping your best players, developing young talent, keeping a happy locker room, not making bad trades, not making crippling UFA signings, he does a great job)

You act like keeping Nyquist in the minors a bit longer then "he should have" hurt this team. Look at him now....does his development look hurt? Does Tatar's?

I think we should all look at the Oilers as an example of how just throwing kids out there can hurt them, and stunt their development. I'm perfectly happy with the prospects we have drafted and developed, and now I feel we are in the position we are in because of it.

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@number9: Do you have Franzen's cell phone number and play poker with the guy when he is not on the ice? I feel like you're his PR on this forum. The guy is having an awful year. I mean I have his jersey too and I loved him but can't you admit that his 6 goals in 2 games and 0 in the next 20 every year can get a bit tiresome and that he floats a lot? We are all huge fans here but you simply can't tell me he isn't a problem and that other fans aren't allowed to point this out if they want to on a Red Wings' fan forum right?

Edited by GoWings!

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Singling out Franzen is as stupid as it gets right now. The whole team, with the notable exception of our goalies, sucks right now. Sure, Franzen should bring more to the table but Nyquist, Zetterberg, Tatar, Smith etc. (you name them) should do too.

And we all know Mule floats some time of the year. Every player does from time to time except the super stars. Nothing unusual here, especially if you take his caphit into account.

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Do you have Franzen's cell phone number and play poker with the guy when he is not on the ice? I feel like you're his PR on this forum. The guy is having an awful year. I mean I have his jersey too and I loved him but can't you admit that his 6 goals in 2 games and 0 in the next 20 every year can get a bit tiresome and that he floats a lot? We are all huge fans here but you simply can't tell me he isn't a problem and that other fans aren't allowed to point this out if they want to on a Red Wings' fan forum right?

You have every right to complain about it... it's just been done ad naseum. I feel like I need to do some research on known "floaters" "streaky" around the league and get back to you on their cap hit vs. laziness levels/streakiness to give you something to *really* think about...

Franzen vs Just some names off the top of my head in the meantime

Franzen (3.955 million dollar cap hit -- let's go crazy and call it 4 miilion) 6 goals 13 assists in 25 games -- signed thru 19-20

Alexander Semin (7 million dollar cap hit) 1 goal. 5 assists in 21 games -- signed thru 17-18

Bobby Ryan (7.25 million dollar cap hit) 7 goals 12 assists in 28 games -- signed thru 21-22

Joffrey Lupul (5.25 million dollar cap hit) 7goals 5 assists in 20 games -- signed thru 17-18

...and yes. Me, #9, and the Mule hang out all the time when the Wings play in NYC. ...and he totally laughs when we call him out for his laziness. He still pays for drinks too.

Edited by e_prime

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I'm really efiin confused about what I've read here lately.

Holland simply has lost it's fire and passion. Guy used to be the by far best GM in the damn league. People may or may not like it but the post Z and Pasha era will be a tough one because centers - especially such elite ones - are hard to come by. If Larkin can turn into a solid second line center I would be very happy but I for sure don't expect him to be anything close to these two.

Holland has his work cut out for him and if the Wings are losing Babcock too his job won't get any easier. Also it would have been a wise move to build a more balanced team not just skill over anything and then having hardtime against hard nosed teams that play a shutdown game.

He used to have a blank check to put together a roster, and were still competitive while were trying to reload/rebuild.

And the last thing you said, isn't he doing just that.

He hasn't drafted only skill, we are getting bigger and harder to play against.

That doesn't happen over night.

Edited by jimmyemeryhunter

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I know I've seen this bang for the buck-cap hit explanation as many times as I've seen people complain about Franzen. Of course I'm not singling him out. And if you tell me Zetts, Nyquist and Tatar don't bring as much to the table as Franzen then you're crazy. They hustle all night long every game and bring energy. Tats and Nyquist lead the team in goals and Zetts, although slumping, leads the team in points. No doubt everyone's at fault but I'm not gonna sit here and give Franzen a pass simply because "Franzen is being Franzen." We could've used 2 goals from him last night. No Weiss and our offense struggling..yea we could've used the Franzen beast mode he does about 5 games a year out of the 80. All I'm saying. If I'm not allowed to be a bit ticked after that game last night with my fellow Wings fans here than I'm sorry for being as truthful as I can be.

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@number9: Do you have Franzen's cell phone number and play poker with the guy when he is not on the ice? I feel like you're his PR on this forum. The guy is having an awful year. I mean I have his jersey too and I loved him but can't you admit that his 6 goals in 2 games and 0 in the next 20 every year can get a bit tiresome and that he floats a lot? We are all huge fans here but you simply can't tell me he isn't a problem and that other fans aren't allowed to point this out if they want to on a Red Wings' fan forum right?

Don't you have a anti-Franzen thread you can bring this up in for the 1000th time? Last nights lost had as much to do with Tatar and almost every wing without a Z in his name than it did with Franzen. So yeah I'm gonna be his PR guy if you're gonna single him out over the loss.

We have an open spot at the poker table Thursday nights btw.

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He's been off.

when he is on, he wins games almost single handedly.

Just because some people choose not to look solely at the bad things doesn't mean were defending him as a great player.

Franzen is far from a great player...he NEVER wins games single handedly. He looked good early on, looked like he was going to get his normal 40 points, maybe more, but then Francine took over. He needs to just hang em up. Its obvious his head is not in the game anymore and it does hurt this team by him stinking up the ice and taking up a valuable roster spot to where we could be previewing Pulkkinen or maybe Mantha a bit. This guy has not been a threat since 2009 and every team in the NHL knows this and they don't even throw their best guys on him anymore. He is the reason Sheahan and Tatar are slumping a bit, whichever line he plays on, he brings them down to his laziness. He has nothing left in the tank. I hate Cleary, but GD it, I'd rather have Cleary in his roster spot right about now.

I know he isn't getting traded, he won't get waived, but Jesus retire already! I don't care what his cap hit will be, the only way he will stop contaminating this team is by retiring...or suffering LTIR and I am not that low enough to wish that on anyone.

Franzen is garbage anymore, he was the wrong choice (along with Hudler) that year and the Wings have been paying the price ever since. It doesn't matter now, but Franzen needs to go and go soon. He is not the only reason they are losing, but he is not helping, he is not a threat to score, he makes lazy plays every shift, if your head isn't in the game, leave. Take a page out of the Lidstrom/YZerman book, if you don't have the heart/energy/will to do what it takes to train and compete every night, its time to go.

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