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Franzen on IR

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...how soon we forget. We lost Nestrasil. I know, he wasn't the best, but we still lost him due to overcrowding. Jurco had exemptions, but he was obviously better, so Holland kept him. Nesty wasn't a huge loss, but we still lost him.

Next year BOTH Jurco and Pulkkinen are out of exemptions. We lose Cleary to UFA. That's it. Now Jurco and Pulkkinen are vying for one spot. Holland WILL re-sign Nyquist, Jurco and Andersson (all RFA's) so that will leave just one spot. It was minimal damage losing Nestrasil, but do you really want to lose one of Jurco or Pulk? Especially at the cost of keeping Franzen and his headcase here? The time has come. Either buy him out or give him the Pronger treatment for the next 5 years. If we lose one of those two so we can have Franzen float around out there and peter in a few points and shots here and there, then something is wrong with Holland, seriously. Stop the bleeding somehow. Just don't lose Jurco or Pulk or ANYBODY else to roster overcrowding by useless players.

And, no it's not "fan speculation" on Franzen's head problems. Its been said time after time, that he gets into funks that cause him to lose focus and have no desire to do anything. The only speculation is what may be causing this...nothing personal Johan, just business, we need that roster spot.

You said it yourself. Nestrasil was waived because he couldn't beat out Jurco (a guy with minor league options). Not because there was no room for him. If he'd been good enough to keep, Jurco would have gone down.

If there's one thing you can say for Ken Holland, it's that he almost never lets an asset go for nothing. Hence, we've still got Kindl on this team. Nestrasil, Almquist, Emmerton, Mursak, etc. all had opportunities to play their way onto the team. If they didn't stick, it's because they weren't better than their competition (Jurco, Kindl, Glendening, Miller/Eaves/Andersson). When Ken Holland loses a player that he really wants to keep, I'll be happy to acknowledge it. But as of now, he's only losing guys who can't hack it.

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I totally agree with you Kip. But next year is different. Jurco and Pulk are better than any of the others we lost or did not re-sign. I just hope that Holland isn't forced to lose one of them because Franzen may still "think" he can play. I would love* for Franzen to get better and contribute 20 goals again (*not to be confused with me loving or even liking Franzen as a player) but its not going to happen, I think everyone here 100% feels the same way. I suppose Holland could trade someone (Jurco or Andersson) but to me, and I think most agree, both of those guys are more valuable to this team than Franzen at this point in their respective careers. Especially cap-wise. I think its just time to cut the loss this summer, rather than be forced to trade someone or lose him to waivers in October. I'd rather Franzen get sent down through waivers and hope that a team would take a chance on him rather than lose one of Pulk or Jurco in any fashion. (or even Andersson for that matter.)

I know we still have Kindl because Holland did not want to lose him for nothing, but Ouellet still had exemptions to keep Kindl here...Pulk and Jurco will not.

Edited by LeftWinger

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I totally agree with you Kip. But next year is different. Jurco and Pulk are better than any of the others we lost or did not re-sign. I just hope that Holland isn't forced to lose one of them because Franzen may still "think" he can play. I would love* for Franzen to get better and contribute 20 goals again (*not to be confused with me loving or even liking Franzen as a player) but its not going to happen, I think everyone here 100% feels the same way. I suppose Holland could trade someone (Jurco or Andersson) but to me, and I think most agree, both of those guys are more valuable to this team than Franzen at this point in their respective careers. Especially cap-wise. I think its just time to cut the loss this summer, rather than be forced to trade someone or lose him to waivers in October. I'd rather Franzen get sent down through waivers and hope that a team would take a chance on him rather than lose one of Pulk or Jurco in any fashion. (or even Andersson for that matter.)

I know we still have Kindl because Holland did not want to lose him for nothing, but Ouellet still had exemptions to keep Kindl here...Pulk and Jurco will not.

So many things wrong with this...

I just hope that Holland isn't forced to lose one of them because Franzen may still "think" he can play.

If he still thinks he can play? As if it's his choice if he's healthy? If he's healthy he'll be in the lineup and if not he'll be on LTIR. Pretty simple.

I would love* for Franzen to get better and contribute 20 goals again but its not going to happen, I think everyone here 100% feels the same way.

Ummm nope they don't.

I suppose Holland could trade someone (Jurco or Andersson) but to me, and I think most agree, both of those guys are more valuable to this team than Franzen at this point in their respective careers.

Andersson is not more valuable then Franzen. lol

I'd rather Franzen get sent down through waivers and hope that a team would take a chance on him rather than lose one of Pulk or Jurco in any fashion. (or even Andersson for that matter.)

Would never ever happen.

Edited by Son of a Wing

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I totally agree with you Kip. But next year is different. Jurco and Pulk are better than any of the others we lost or did not re-sign. I just hope that Holland isn't forced to lose one of them because Franzen may still "think" he can play. I would love* for Franzen to get better and contribute 20 goals again (*not to be confused with me loving or even liking Franzen as a player) but its not going to happen, I think everyone here 100% feels the same way. I suppose Holland could trade someone (Jurco or Andersson) but to me, and I think most agree, both of those guys are more valuable to this team than Franzen at this point in their respective careers. Especially cap-wise. I think its just time to cut the loss this summer, rather than be forced to trade someone or lose him to waivers in October. I'd rather Franzen get sent down through waivers and hope that a team would take a chance on him rather than lose one of Pulk or Jurco in any fashion. (or even Andersson for that matter.)

I know we still have Kindl because Holland did not want to lose him for nothing, but Ouellet still had exemptions to keep Kindl here...Pulk and Jurco will not.

Franzen got off to such a great start. Then the injury and he was back to the same ole Franzen. I remember an interview where he was uncomfortable with being viewed as a goal scorer. He just cared about winning. Maybe he should think back to the contact he signed and ask himself why he got paid good money for a long term deal.

Sent from my hooka via hash cloud.

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Andersson is a scrub. I place him slightly above Nestrasil, only because he's a decent penalty killer. I fully expect him to be the odd man out next season, either playing in Grand Rapids or with another club. No big loss. To say he has more value than Franzen is laughable. You can hate on Franzen all you want, it doesn't change the fact that, when healthy he can contribute on any given night. Is he streaky? Absolutely. But that's part of the package. I don't believe we need him to win games, and I would welcome a trade, but he is in no way, a player we NEED to get rid of...

Holland waives Nestrasil to make room for the better player, Jurco, and people ***** because we lose an "asset". If Holland were to send Jurco down and keep Nestrasil on the team, people would ***** that he is not icing his best players... Holland just can't win with some fans... Oh well...

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Andersson is a scrub. I place him slightly above Nestrasil, only because he's a decent penalty killer. I fully expect him to be the odd man out next season, either playing in Grand Rapids or with another club. No big loss. To say he has more value than Franzen is laughable. You can hate on Franzen all you want, it doesn't change the fact that, when healthy he can contribute on any given night. Is he streaky? Absolutely. But that's part of the package. I don't believe we need him to win games, and I would welcome a trade, but he is in no way, a player we NEED to get rid of...

Holland waives Nestrasil to make room for the better player, Jurco, and people ***** because we lose an "asset". If Holland were to send Jurco down and keep Nestrasil on the team, people would ***** that he is not icing his best players... Holland just can't win with some fans... Oh well...

I bitched about the Tootoo, Sammy, Cleary, Quincey, etc. signings, trades, and re-signs. I was convinced that Holland was past it and didn't have any fresh ideas. Apparently he knew a little bit more than I did just how good his prospects were. Now our team is pretty legit. And we're certainly positioned to be VERY good in the next couple of years.

So I've got to admit I was 100% wrong about Holland. At this point, when it comes to building a team, developing players, or acquiring talent, I'm going to defer to the guy who's got four Stanley Cup rings sitting on his mantle.

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I think that goes for just about everyone Kip. I've always been a believer and supporter in Holland but there's no way I can sit here and say that I've never questioned any of his moves / personel decisions... He's made quite a few that I haven't liked and I'm sure he'll make quite a few more that I won't like. No GM is perfect, but Ken Holland is pretty ******* brilliant when it comes to managing his team.

I actually didn't mind the Quincey signing and I like it now. I didn't mind the Cleary signing and I still don't. I hated the Tootoo signing from beginning to end, same goes for the Samuelsson signing, but that was worse than I even anticipated... I think the big thing though, is that all of these were basically stop gaps to get us through before the kids were ready.

"In Kenny we trust"...

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I think that goes for just about everyone Kip. I've always been a believer and supporter in Holland but there's no way I can sit here and say that I've never questioned any of his moves / personel decisions... He's made quite a few that I haven't liked and I'm sure he'll make quite a few more that I won't like. No GM is perfect, but Ken Holland is prettyf****** brilliant when it comes to managing his team.

I actually didn't mind the Quincey signing and I like it now. I didn't mind the Cleary signing and I still don't. I hated the Tootoo signing from beginning to end, same goes for the Samuelsson signing, but that was worse than I even anticipated... I think the big thing though, is that all of these were basically stop gaps to get us through before the kids were ready.

"In Kenny we trust"...

I still don't like Quincey's contact. He's played much better and all that, but he's still overpaid. By a lot. As far as Cleary, I kinda don't care about them re-signing him this year. Whatever, let him play out one more year as the 13th forward and retire a Wing. I hated last year's signing though, but those circumstances were different.

Either way, my point in bringing them up was just to say that while I thought Kenny was making questionable moves because he was washed up, he was really just putting bandaids on the problem until the kids could take over. Which has always been his stated strategy, but which I thought was a bad idea...until I saw how good they were.

So, long story short, if Kenny moves a prospect or two for a veteran, I'll assume those prospects weren't 100% necessary. Because it's not like he doesn't know what good prospects look like. And if he doesn't, then I'll assume we've already got whatever we need in our system.

Edited by kipwinger

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Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Helm, Sheahan, Weiss, Franzen, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, Jurco, Pulkkinen

Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, Quincey, Smith, Kindl, Lashoff

Howard, Mrazek

It's not necessary to waive or trade anyone to make room for Pulkkinen.

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Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Nyquist, Tatar, Abdelkader, Helm, Sheahan, Weiss, Franzen, Miller, Glendening, Andersson, Jurco, Pulkkinen

Kronwall, Ericsson, Dekeyser, Quincey, Smith, Kindl, Lashoff

Howard, Mrazek

It's not necessary to waive or trade anyone to make room for Pulkkinen.

You're right, but I think he's probably not taking it for granted that Cleary is going to retire. You are...probably correctly.

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Nobody would take Franzen in a trade.

If they try to waive him to GR, he'll retire and the Wings will be screwed.

If they waive him and release him, the cap penalty screws them.

The only real option is keep him and hope he either stays healthy, or sits on IR for the duration of his contract.

Pulkinnen or Jurco won't be waived. If someone gets waived, it would be Andersson. The Wings don't let players go if they're going to be good, the guys they have lost on waivers have done virtually nothing. Knuble was the last good player the Wings let go because they didn't have room for a young guy, and that was more because Bowman wanted vets than anything to do with Holland.

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Franzen has 5 more years on the contract. If he spends the last 2 years of that like Cleary is and Bert did at the end (mostly in the stands) I think that's totally fine. He looked very good at the beginning of the season - I think he's good for another 3 years of keeping his game roughly where it's been. I know people don't particularly like him, but I still feel there's still no problem here and it's still the same situation. He's never played an entire season worth of games and we haven't got 70 games out of him in a while.

Also, we should not be worried about keeping Andersson. If he goes, we have Callahan, Ferrarro, and other prospects on the edge that can fill that spot. If Pulkkinen is the 13 or 14th forward next year that's fine.

I like that our offence has been doing so well and next year there's the possibility of adding Teemu and Jurco's (think he'll get the mojo working) production to that.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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Franzen has 5 more years on the contract. If he spends the last 2 years of that like Cleary is and Bert did at the end (in the stands and as a veteran locker room presence) I think that's totally fine. He looked very good at the beginning of the season - I think he's good for another 3 years of keeping his game roughly where it's been. I know people don't particularly like him, but I still feel there's still no problem here and it's still the same situation.

Franzen in a leadership role?

Hes our laziest player, last player I want our youngins looking up to is Franzen

Edited by WingsallTheway

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Franzen in a leadership role?

Hes our laziest player, last player I want our youngins looking up to is Franzen

Yeah, I didn't mean a leadership role. I know Veteran presence does usually mean that (though many veteran players are not necessarily a good influence) I just wrote the phrase without thinking. I just meant if he rides the pine for a lot of his last two years I think that's fine.

I don't really think we need to worry about bad influence in the locker room, though. With Z dats, Abby, Helm, etc. I feel like there's a stronger culture of hard work.

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Quincey was the last decent player lost to waivers. Also the only one I can think of off hand.

Knuble was traded for a 2nd rounder.

I didn't necessarily just mean lost on waivers, but I see your point. Quincey had a s*** camp the year he was cut, too.

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Things aren't sounding good here. Still no improvement.

http://redwings.nhl.com/club/m_news.htm?id=753668

I mentioned this in another thread and ill say it again. Concussions lead to brain damage if occurred too many times. Technically the standard is if you get it once, make sure u dont get it again. It basically leads to rupture of neurons (brain cells) Franzen has gotten it way too many times. He should seriously consider retiring if he cares about his own health.

- I work in the medical field. Not a huge fan when i see kids showing up with this.

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I mentioned this in another thread and ill say it again. Concussions lead to brain damage if occurred too many times. Technically the standard is if you get it once, make sure u dont get it again. It basically leads to rupture of neurons (brain cells) Franzen has gotten it way too many times. He should seriously consider retiring if he cares about his own health.

- I work in the medical field. Not a huge fan when i see kids showing up with this.

I don't care what you do, Reggie Ray stays in the game goddammit!

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I bitched about the Tootoo, Sammy, Cleary, Quincey, etc. signings, trades, and re-signs. I was convinced that Holland was past it and didn't have any fresh ideas. Apparently he knew a little bit more than I did just how good his prospects were. Now our team is pretty legit. And we're certainly positioned to be VERY good in the next couple of years.

So I've got to admit I was 100% wrong about Holland. At this point, when it comes to building a team, developing players, or acquiring talent, I'm going to defer to the guy who's got four Stanley Cup rings sitting on his mantle.

You forgot bertuzzi lol ... Yes holland knows about our prospects and developing them but he was 110% wrong on resigning samuelsson yet again ... Cleary and bertuzzi and most if not all of us knew it

He's one if not the best gm in hockey but his only default is being way too loyal to guys who have been a longtime wing and not just letting them go

No other guy I'd want running our team though

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I guess I'm not really up to speed on the new CBA rules about retirement. Does the over-35 thing not apply anymore? What would happen if Franzen just retires?

The over-35 thing only applies when a player signs his contract when he's over-35. Which Franzen was not when he signed the contract.

If he retires now, part of his cap-hit stays because of the cap-recapture penalty in the new CBA.

It's the big F-U from the league for all those front loaded cap deals.

EDIT: WingingItInMotown has the breakdown of numbers on their site.

http://www.wingingitinmotown.com/2013/1/8/3850352/nhl-cba-the-luongo-rule-cap-hit-recapture-what-it-means-for-the-red

...but here's a table of just Franzen's cap hit penalties depending on when he retires.

Johan Franzen Total Recapture Pool 2015-16 2016-17 2017-18 2018-19 2019-20

Retires Summer '15 $7,272,730 $1,454,546 $1,454,546 $1,454,546 $1,454,546 $1,454,546

Summer '16 $8,318,185 $2,079,546 $2,079,546 $2,079,546 $2,079,546

Summer '17 $7,863,640 $2,621,213 $2,621,213 $2,621,213

Summer '18 $5,909,095 $2,954,548 $2,954,548

Summer'19 $2,954,550 $2,954,550

So, if he were to up and retire this summer it'd be approximately $1.5million against the cap over the next 5 years.

EDIT: ACK! That table looks like s***.

EDIT: Okay, slightly better.

Edited by e_prime

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Would be best... Many have mentioned in this thread that it would be unlikely for the Wings to buy out Franzen without some discussion with him, nor would Franzen likely retire without consulting with the team first... but we shall see. I really hope he can get back on track and back on the ice.

You know, maybe as our "trade deadline acquisition" :ninja:

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