Franzen on IR

[barabbas16 499]

This has to be sarcasm, right? The only playoff beast mode Francine gets into anymore (since 2009) is the beast of dump he takes on the ice when "plays." Can we not get rid of this albatross already?

I got a new sig idea "Johan Franzen, prooving Leftwinger right since Summer 2009..."

I know Hossa is really outscoring Francine this season, but man what a dumb ass choice that was! That goes down in history with the Ferderko and McKegney acquistions!

Technically, Franzen had 18 points in 12 games during the 2010 playoffs..... I would not qualify that as a 'beast of a dump'

[gcom007 1,465]

Absolutely. I remember being so pumped when he was signed, he had a great season here, then Holland has a hardcore brainfart and lets him head to Chicago. Awesome.

I didn't care so much about signing Franzen at the time. I cared more that Holland didn't do more to keep Hossa. He should've let some of the free agents that eventually walked anyways go without trying, and he should've dealt our old underachieving buddy Mr. Flipper to make room for Hossa. I would've taken Hossa over Franzen in a heartbeat, even when Franzen was at his best, but Holland should've done more to keep Hossa when he could've had him signed at a great cap hit for life. Hossa is a heart and soul guy who gives his all on the ice and sets a great example for the younger players coming up. Getting Hossa signed should've been priority number one. It still just pisses me off.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Hossa and Franzen were both offered contracts. Hossa dicked around, Franzen signed. A mule in the hand is worth a Czech in the bush. Not only that, but at the time Hossa's extra cap hit would have cost the Wings another player or two. Since that time, looking at points an goals per game, compared to cap hit, Franzen is the better value.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I still wanted Hossa. Did I support having both Franzen and Hossa? After both of their 2009 campaign's, absolutely I did. I did say when they signed Franzen that it pretty much screws us for Hossa unless he took a huge discount (in which he said he was willing to do) but then after Holland dinked around with keeping money for Hudler, Hossa split and I was angry, especially where he went. It is a bad thing to be upset with the player you wanted to stay when he bolts to a rivalry! For God's sake half of you guys still boo Fedorov.

Nice work digging stuff up, but nowhere in any of that mess shows me supporting Franzen INSTEAD of Hossa. It shows me supporting both and dumping Hudler, Filppula and Samuelsson. But it also shows that I would've rather kept Hossa over Franzen when it came down to the choice.

All this points in the same direction as I have always pointed when it came down to a choice, I wanted Hossa over Franzen.

If you were around back then, you will also know my distain for Hudler. I wanted to trade Sammy and Flip as well. Sammy took a dump (although I was a bit hopeful for him when he returned the second time) Hudler was hot garbage and perhaps the only other Red Wing I hated more than Franzen. Filppula never panned out once he re-signed. He was helpful in 08, but he again, was a guy who got a nice raise and took it and ran and never really lived up to it for us. Was in support of him being traded when he had the value he had in 09. Trading Flip and Hudler at that time would've have been more valuable than keeping them (which was my opinion) and it played out to be true. Plus it limited our cash to keep Hossa after giving Franzen too much money.

Again, nice try, but nowhere does it say I choose Franzen over Hossa. Franzen AND Hossa over keeping Flip and Hudler? At the time? Absolutely. But almost immediately after we lost Hossa, I was way OFF the Franzen wagon. And again, I was pissed that Hossa didn't take less to stay and that he left for Chicago. Doesn't mean I didn't wish Holland kept him over Franzen.

Dickie, other than money, no way Franzen was a better deal than Hossa. Hossa to this day is a constant threat on this ice. Franzen is a threat TO the ice....melting it.

And I have been hating him since he signed, and he has been more and more useless every year since...pretty soon Holland will be paying him to change his (Franzen's) depends when he can't hold his bowels anymore.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I still wanted Hossa. Did I support having both Franzen and Hossa? After both of their 2009 campaign's, absolutely I did. I did say when they signed Franzen that it pretty much screws us for Hossa unless he took a huge discount (in which he said he was willing to do) but then after Holland dinked around with keeping money for Hudler, Hossa split and I was angry, especially where he went. It is a bad thing to be upset with the player you wanted to stay when he bolts to a rivalry! For God's sake half of you guys still boo Fedorov.

Nice work digging stuff up, but nowhere in any of that mess shows me supporting Franzen INSTEAD of Hossa. It shows me supporting both and dumping Hudler, Filppula and Samuelsson. But it also shows that I would've rather kept Hossa over Franzen when it came down to the choice.

All this points in the same direction as I have always pointed when it came down to a choice, I wanted Hossa over Franzen.

If you were around back then, you will also know my distain for Hudler. I wanted to trade Sammy and Flip as well. Sammy took a dump (although I was a bit hopeful for him when he returned the second time) Hudler was hot garbage and perhaps the only other Red Wing I hated more than Franzen. Filppula never panned out once he re-signed. He was helpful in 08, but he again, was a guy who got a nice raise and took it and ran and never really lived up to it for us. Was in support of him being traded when he had the value he had in 09. Trading Flip and Hudler at that time would've have been more valuable than keeping them (which was my opinion) and it played out to be true. Plus it limited our cash to keep Hossa after giving Franzen too much money.

Again, nice try, but nowhere does it say I choose Franzen over Hossa. Franzen AND Hossa over keeping Flip and Hudler? At the time? Absolutely. But almost immediately after we lost Hossa, I was way OFF the Franzen wagon. And again, I was pissed that Hossa didn't take less to stay and that he left for Chicago. Doesn't mean I didn't wish Holland kept him over Franzen.

Dickie, other than money, no way Franzen was a better deal than Hossa. Hossa to this day is a constant threat on this ice. Franzen is a threat TO the ice....melting it.

And I have been hating him since he signed, and he has been more and more useless every year since...pretty soon Holland will be paying him to change his (Franzen's) depends when he can't hold his bowels anymore.

I'm not so sure why you're so high on a guy that you described as being less valuable than Steve Duschene. Remember when you said that?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Hossa and Franzen were both offered contracts. Hossa dicked around, Franzen signed. A mule in the hand is worth a Czech in the bush. Not only that, but at the time Hossa's extra cap hit would have cost the Wings another player or two. Since that time, looking at points an goals per game, compared to cap hit, Franzen is the better value.

I would gladly take Hossa's slightly higher cap hit when you factor in everything else he does that makes him worth more money than Franzen. Hossa is an elite two-way forward. He has obviously slowed down some from six years ago, but so has his counterpart. Even if it cost the Wings another player or two, we are still talking about Marian Hossa. He scored 40 goals and the Wings haven't had anyone hit 30 since.

Imagine Hossa for all these years on Pavel's wing instead of Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, Helm, etc. It would have completely changed the dynamic of the team.

Edited January 13, 2015 by GoWings1905

[gcom007 1,465]

Hossa and Franzen were both offered contracts. Hossa dicked around, Franzen signed. A mule in the hand is worth a Czech in the bush. Not only that, but at the time Hossa's extra cap hit would have cost the Wings another player or two. Since that time, looking at points an goals per game, compared to cap hit, Franzen is the better value.

Hossa was offered a truly low-ball contract if I remember correctly. And yes, it would've required moving pieces. Sometimes that's what it takes to land elite level talent. Considering how hard of a time we've had since acquiring even ho-hum average-ish mid-level guys, I'd say it would've been worth it to make the deal when we had the chance.

And way to use points per game to compare a one-dimensional player like Franzen with a guy who's a two-way force who hustles at both ends of the ice. The thing about having a guy like Hossa is that he can put up goals and points and still play a great two-way game. His work ethic was top notch, and again, the kind of example a player like that sets for younger guys coming up is of huge value to a team.

What kind of example does Franzen set these days???

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Duschesne plays a different position. That year our D was stiffling, he was most definitely more important to the team D than Hossa was. So in that sense, Ducshesne was more important. But I see what you are tried to do.

and to address my use of "better" Red Wings than Hossa. All those guys were willing to take much less money than market value to help keep this team in contention. Again, I, as many were, was mad when he left for more money.

I don't know what the hell I brought Primeau up for, that could've been my anger about the whole situation...maybe. I will give you that one, I must have been not thinking straight! Although, Primeau did get us Shanny, so he was better than Hossa at bringing us a return! Oh well...

[gcom007 1,465]

I would gladly take Hossa's slightly higher cap hit when you factor in everything else he does that makes him worth more money than Franzen. Hossa is an elite two-way forward. He has obviously slowed down some from six years ago, but so has his counterpart. Even if it cost the Wings another player or two, we are still talking about Marian Hossa. He scored 40 goals and the Wings haven't had anyone hit 30 since.

Imagine Hossa for all these years on Pavel's wing instead of Bertuzzi, Abdelkader, Helm, etc. It would have completely changed the dynamic of the team.

Absolutely. He's a player you build teams around. He's going to make the guys around him better and set a great example. He would've been a tremendous asset to this team and I truly believe it would've made for a much smoother last four years. Having another guy like Hossa in the lineup, especially on a team like the Wings, sets a tone and raises the bar of what's expected out of guys, and you can never have enough of that kind of energy. If you can land a guy who brings that to a team, you do what you have to in order to make it happen. Furthermore, he raises the profile of the team, and makes it all the more likely that we'll be on players radars when we're trying to cut deals in the future.

The most frustrating part of that situation was that we really would've had one year of cap hell. One. Everyone knew the cap was going to keep going up and we were going to have more room to breathe moving forward. All we had to do was find a way to make it work for one year and we've got another elite two-way player on our team for the length of his career. And hell, if anything, it would've been a double blessing as we would've been forced us to move some clunky pieces for something as opposed to losing them for nothing as eventually happened, with no major benefits gained from keeping them around.

But for the love, I've seen a lot of dumb stuff posted on here, but suggesting that Franzen is a better value than Hossa based off of points per game relative to cap hit is seriously one of the more absurd and utterly simplistic suggestions I've seen made on here.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Hossa vs Franzen debate? Awesome! It's been way too long since this has been discussed...

Hossa is the better player in every facet of the game, even taking his cap hit into account, he is the better bang for your buck. Hindsight is 20/20, no one could have predicted that Franzen would have dropped off as much as he has. It was a reasonable decision for Holland to make, based on Franzen's recent success. It turned out to be the wrong decision, but like so many people have pointed out, it's not like Holland never tried to sign Hossa, he was offered a contract, he decided to continue chasing his Cup He was successful, winning it twice, good for him. It's done. It was 6 years ago. Get Over It!!!

[gcom007 1,465]

Hossa vs Franzen debate? Awesome! It's been way too long since this has been discussed...

Hossa is the better player in every facet of the game, even taking his cap hit into account, he is the better bang for your buck. Hindsight is 20/20, no one could have predicted that Franzen would have dropped off as much as he has. It was a reasonable decision for Holland to make, based on Franzen's recent success. It turned out to be the wrong decision, but like so many people have pointed out, it's not like Holland never tried to sign Hossa, he was offered a contract, he decided to continue chasing his Cup He was successful, winning it twice, good for him. It's done. It was 6 years ago. Get Over It!!!

Hossa was offered a contract that was borderline if not straight up insulting. If Holland had offered him a reasonable contract, Hossa would've signed here, no doubt about it. He clearly wanted to play for the Wings, but he has to have some self-respect, and it was pretty clear that Holland didn't want to make any sacrifices to sign Hossa to a reasonable deal.

[krsmith17 7,191]

Like I said before... It was 6 ******* years ago... Get over it...

Every GM makes mistakes and that was clearly one of Holland's. Difference between Kenny and the other 29 general managers is that his mistakes are a lot more few and far between.

[LeftWinger 4,959]

I wonder how long it will take krsmith to "get over it" when/if Smith is traded?

Ever since the "Choice" Hossa has shined and Francine has been a pile of dog poop, fermenting and getting stinkier every year. He was "ok" the first year of his contract, then turn into a festering goop pile that gets slimier and slimier... Franzen is hot garbage, doesn't deserve to be on this team and should have been dealt with A LONG TIME AGO!

At this point I would take Cleary on that "serious contract" than Francine for one more shift. I was over Francine a long time ago and cannot even stomach him wearing that sweater anymore. He had a stretch of what, 7 games this season where he fooled all of us into thinking he may have a decent season and be someone that he other teams need to keep an eye on? But since then, he is back, even worse than last season. This clown should've been the last buyout, I cannot believe Holland and a lot of people still think the 2008 Franzen is going to come back...how about getting over that?!?

[kipwinger 8,524]

I wonder how long it will take krsmith to "get over it" when/if Smith is traded?

Ever since the "Choice" Hossa has shined and Francine has been a pile of dog poop, fermenting and getting stinkier every year. He was "ok" the first year of his contract, then turn into a festering goop pile that gets slimier and slimier... Franzen is hot garbage, doesn't deserve to be on this team and should have been dealt with A LONG TIME AGO!

At this point I would take Cleary on that "serious contract" than Francine for one more shift. I was over Francine a long time ago and cannot even stomach him wearing that sweater anymore. He had a stretch of what, 7 games this season where he fooled all of us into thinking he may have a decent season and be someone that he other teams need to keep an eye on? But since then, he is back, even worse than last season. This clown should've been the last buyout, I cannot believe Holland and a lot of people still think the 2008 Franzen is going to come back...how about getting over that?!?

To be clear, you're talking about buying out the EXACT contract that you were in favor of offering him in the first place right?

Edited January 14, 2015 by kipwinger

[krsmith17 7,191]

LOL I like Smith and I think he will be a solid 2nd pairing defenseman in the next year or two, and I would no doubt be disappointed if he were traded before reaching his full potential. However, I can guarantee, I would not still be bitching about it 6 years from now...

Also, I'd love to know who is arguing, saying that he has been playing well, or that it was the right choice way back when... The difference is, not everyone feels the need to bring it up every single time, Franzen's name is mentioned... Get Over It!...

Your constant bitching isn't going to change the fact that we have Franzen, and Hossa is in Chicago, so why bother? Actually, come to think of it, why am I bothering with this? I know it's not going to stop. The same people will still be complaining about "The Choice" long after both guys are retired... It's sad really...

[kipwinger 8,524]

LOL I like Smith and I think he will be a solid 2nd pairing defenseman in the next year or two, and I would no doubt be disappointed if he were traded before reaching his full potential. However, I can guarantee, I would not still be bitching about it 6 years from now...

Also, I'd love to know who is arguing, saying that he has been playing well, or that it was the right choice way back when... The difference is, not everyone feels the need to bring it up every single time, Franzen's name is mentioned... Get Over It!...

Your constant bitching isn't going to change the fact that we have Franzen, and Hossa is in Chicago, so why bother? Actually, come to think of it, why am I bothering with this? I know it's not going to stop. The same people will still be complaining about "The Choice" long after both guys are retired... It's sad really...

Because "The Choice" single handedly destroyed Detroit hockey and created the Chicago dynasty. If not for Ken Hollands idiotic bumbling, Hossa would have brought at least two more Cups to Detroit instead. Just like he did in 2009, back when he was playing with a much younger, better, and more effective Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom.

Oh, and having Hossa, Zetterberg, AND Franzen on long term, front loaded, contracts wouldn't have screwed us at all. Nope. No way.

It would have all been roses.

[kipwinger 8,524]

I could be wrong here, but me thinks if Holland would've signed Hossa long term that would've meant Franzen would've been traded, or been forced to sign for alot less.

EDIT - and there's a good chance that we here at LGW would've started a thread about Hossa's injured shoulder, and the number of games missed...

Franzen signed first, to a sweetheart deal, well below market value. Given how Ken Holland works, you really think he would have traded Franzen three months after Franzen did management a favor and took a lower cap hit? C'mon.

[e_prime 1,936]

STOP LIVING IN THE PAST!!!

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Yep, this team was MUCH better the years we had Francine and Hudler rather than having Hossa.

Again after Francine was signed I said, YES! Now get Hossa signed and dump Hudler and Filppula. But we see that Holland chose to keep Hudler and Filppula and in turn forced Hossa to leave with an stupidly low ball contract offer.

No doubt in my mind that this team would have challenged more for a Cup with Hossa and Franzen over Franzen, Hudler and Filppula. Hudler and Filppula are gone, I cannot wait for Franzen to leave, by whatever means. Sure, it doesn't change the fact that Hossa went to Chicago, but at least the reason(s) he did leave will all be gone!

Again Kip, so you can understand it. I wasn't in favor of choosing Franzen over Hossa, but when Franzen signed, I was ok with it as long as the priority switched to Hossa and dumping Hudler and Filppula to make it happen. When Hossa left, I was angry at him for leaving, but then almost immediately turned my anger towards keeping Franzen, Hudler and Filppula. Thank you. Re-read all that stuff you pulled up from me instead of just cherry picking things here and there.

[kipwinger 8,524]

Again after Francine was signed I said, YES! Now get Hossa signed and dump Hudler and Filppula. But we see that Holland chose to keep Hudler and Filppula and in turn forced Hossa to leave with an stupidly low ball contract offer.

So why don't you blame Hudler and Filppula for not being traded? Why does your ire fall on Franzen? He signed a sweetheart deal three months before Hossa left, and it's a "choice" between him and Hossa? Why don't you ever, EVER, present "the choice" as being between Hossa and Filppula, or Hossa and Hudler?

I'll tell you why. Because it's not as easy an argument to make, that's why. Because, in hindsight, everyone agrees that Franzen has been underwhelming. Not worth his contract. So you parade yourself around here, acting like you "knew it all along", because saying "Franzen sucks" is easy. And people largely agree with you.

But you didn't know it all along. Ooooooh no you didn't. Just like everybody else, you thought the signing was good. You advocated for it. And why not? Franzen had just had two MONSTER years. It WAS a good signing at the time. It all went sour AFTER he didn't perform up to snuff.

Which is all you need to say. I'd kiss your ass right now if you'd just once tell the truth..."I, Leftwinger, liked the signing when it happened. However, in hindsight, it didn't work out for the team". That's the truth.

But instead we'll hear endlessly about how "you knew better". You didn't. That point is fraudulent. You were just as fooled by Franzen's two good years as everyone else.

If you're a prophet, you're a false one.

[Z Winged Dangler 2,082]

Franzen makes just under $4 mil per year. He may have had some lame games this year, but he was also apparently quite ill for 3 weeks of that goal-less streak so who knows what was going on behind the scenes. I will give him credit though, when he was slumping, he was at least showing a bit of fire. He may have been the guy that got "pissed off" before their 4 goal 3rd period outburst a couple weeks ago. Franzen's biggest issue, like many is consistency. Even Z went 10 or so games without a goal this year and then got what? 4 in 5?

At least the past 3 upsetting seasons are over and the worst thing we have to complain about this year is Franzen's inconsistency and the fact that Kindl is still a Red Wing. I'm gonna say it.....I like this team!

[LeftWinger 4,959]

Kip, I did say I was ok with the signing when it happened. I said, now lets get Hossa signed as well. But when it came down to choosing Fraznen OVER Hossa, I was never on board with that. You may or may not remember, I did talk crap about Hudler every chance I got when he was here, and I partied like 1999 when he left. The ONLY reason I "liked" the Franzen signing is if we could have also gotten Hossa on board. I NEVER advocated Franzen over Hossa.... I don't need any ass kissing, just read posts instead of picking out things that give false support to your argument.

Back to topic..... Get well soon Johan! But I honestly hope you never play for the Wings again!

[kipwinger 8,524]

Kip, I did say I was ok with the signing when it happened. I said, now lets get Hossa signed as well. But when it came down to choosing Fraznen OVER Hossa, I was never on board with that. You may or may not remember, I did talk crap about Hudler every chance I got when he was here, and I partied like 1999 when he left. The ONLY reason I "liked" the Franzen signing is if we could have also gotten Hossa on board. I NEVER advocated Franzen over Hossa.... I don't need any ass kissing, just read posts instead of picking out things that give false support to your argument.

Back to topic..... Get well soon Johan! But I honestly hope you never play for the Wings again!

That's exactly the point. You like something, and then after it's gone bad you don't. You don't like something, until it works. You say so many contradictory things that you'll always be simultaneously right and wrong. I assume that's the point for you.

But spare us all the "I told you so" crap. You liked Franzen, and you liked the signing. Three months later you changed your tune. Which is nothing new with you. You did the same thing with the Quincey trade until we dug up what you said about that at the time.

Edited January 14, 2015 by kipwinger

[LeftWinger 4,959]

BTW, I cannot cut and paste, but I did just see in the original Frazen signs extension thread, a post where I thought I was in a GDT, where I said I like Franzen, but he should have signed for around $2.9M in order to secure more talent for more Cups.

So yes, even back then I was weary of the cap hit, hoped at least we could still sign Hossa, got mad at Hossa for leaving (but Holland low-balled him) and turned on Franzen almost immediately, so read it however you may. Outside of the chance I thought we had to have both players, I NEVER was on the side of keeping Fraznen and not Hossa. NEVER.

[kipwinger 8,524]

That 'sweatheart' deal was still seeing Franzen make $5 million plus per season (will make $5 million next season as well)...Just his last 3 seasons are sumthin around $1 million that makes it all tolerable (and chances of Franzen playing in any of those final seasons is rather slim given his age, and history of injuries)...Is he doing us any favors now with his lack of production, and what appears to be indifferent play these past few seasons?

Granted Hossa has had his fair share of injuries, but when healthy he's a solid producer, and since parting ways, and signing with Chicago - he's been the better of the 2.

The deal was sweetheart because it kept the cap hit low, which is for the team's benefit only. He could have done 8 years at 5 million per, and it would have really put the crunch on management. Front loaded deals are specifically designed to circumvent the cap, which helps management, but does very little for the player.

I know that it's passe to say anything good about Franzen these days, but here are a few simple truths.

1). He signed a deal specifically structured to help the team out (as is the point of the front loaded contract).

2) After the years he had in 2008 and 2009, he likely would have made more money on the open market.

3). EVERYBODY was for the signing when it happened (April, 2009). Nobody was upset, as it looked like we were getting a playoff monster and 30 goal scorer for 3.9 million (cap).

4) His signing had a negligible impact on re-signing Hossa. Likely, part of the reason why management wanted Franzen on a lower cap hit was so they could sign Hossa.

5) Franzen has not lived up to the potential he had shown for the two years prior to signing that deal.

How that has morphed into "management signed a bum instead of Hossa" is beyond me.