Franzen on IR

[kipwinger 8,522]

He has 30 pts. in 44 playoff games over the last 5 years. Which is even better than his regular season ppg numbers.

[toby91_ca 620]

I wasn't including the 09/10 playoff year, so my use of for "5 years" may have been off, but I mean that you have to go back 5 years before getting to a time when he was really effective in the playoffs. Since then, he's scored 7 goals and 5 assists in 32 games.

[toby91_ca 620]

Hey, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the guy, I think there are plenty people carrying that torch. What I would say, which is what was expected when he signed his contract, is that it would be way too much money towards the end of the deal. The guy will struggle to get back and stay on the ice and even if he is able to overcome the injuries and play 82 games a year, he's not going to start producing more, he's going to continue to decline, it's pretty close to fact without being so....it's simply what happens to professional athletes as they age. Very few guys stick around into their late 30s and beyond and continue to be effective, so it's not like I'm suggesting he'd be an outlier by not coming back and producing a lot of offense.

There are examples of guys that seem to defy the odds and continue to produce at older ages (Selanne and Jagr for example), but even with them, their production later in their career was still a far cry from their prime.

[number9 3,297]

Hey, I don't want to sound like I'm ragging on the guy, I think there are plenty people carrying that torch. What I would say, which is what was expected when he signed his contract, is that it would be way too much money towards the end of the deal. The guy will struggle to get back and stay on the ice and even if he is able to overcome the injuries and play 82 games a year, he's not going to start producing more, he's going to continue to decline, it's pretty close to fact without being so....it's simply what happens to professional athletes as they age. Very few guys stick around into their late 30s and beyond and continue to be effective, so it's not like I'm suggesting he'd be an outlier by not coming back and producing a lot of offense.

There are examples of guys that seem to defy the odds and continue to produce at older ages (Selanne and Jagr for example), but even with them, their production later in their career was still a far cry from their prime.

His contract was for a great cap hit when he signed it, and for more than a few years after, at his production. The contract was designed to benefit us in the beginning, not the end. I'm sure Holland and co fully expect/ed him to drop off some in his later years like all players do

[number9 3,297]

Mind you, Holland was still trying to fit Hossa under the cap when Franzen signed that. He sacrificed term to get a great cap hit so Hossa could be signed. Marian walked straight to chi town though for that giant deal.

[DatsyukianDekes 2,428]

Franzen for 7th round pick

[Buppy 1,720]

Not one report suggested his career was in jeopardy.

Like I said, 100% fan speculation/wishful thinking from Franzen haters

Not one report suggested Savard's or Pronger's careers were in jeopardy. Not in the first couple months anyway. Concussions can be career threatening, even more so with multiple concussions in a relatively short time. Of course it's speculation, but it's very reasonable speculation.

[Rivalred 630]

So no update on his condition yet or a time frame

[kipwinger 8,522]

So no update on his condition yet or a time frame

No official update. But considering he was skating yesterday, and a couple of weeks ago Holland said

“I know he’s working with Dr. (Jeff) Kutcher (a specialist at Michigan who treats sports concussions). I get a report occasionally from (trainer) Piet Van Zant when Piet talks to Dr. Kutcher. But (Franzen) is not here. He’s not on the bike. I don’t know how far he is away.”

I think it's probably safe to say he's improving.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/16/holland-franzen-concussion-not-close-to-returning/

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Not one report suggested his career was in jeopardy.

Like I said, 100% fan speculation/wishful thinking from Franzen haters

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/john-niyo/2015/02/11/niyo-concussions-leave-franzens-future-uncertain/23276907/

Beyond that it's common sense to think that his career might be over after that many head injuries. How many other guys have had their careers ended in the same way? Both Lindros brothers, Pronger, Savard, Lafontaine off the top of my head.It's not being a "hater" to think that, and I haven't seen many, if any, people saying that he IS done for sure, just that given his history and what we know about head injuries compared to 20 years ago that it's a possibility and might be best for his. It's no different than people speculating that a pitcher's career could be over after 2 or 3 bad arm injuries, or a football player being done after a couple knee surgeries.

His contract was for a great cap hit when he signed it, and for more than a few years after, at his production. The contract was designed to benefit us in the beginning, not the end. I'm sure Holland and co fully expect/ed him to drop off some in his later years like all players do

It was also expected that he could retire with no consequences, until that little troll Bettman pushed through that recapture penalty.

[rick zombo 3,739]

It was also expected that he could retire with no consequences, until that little troll Bettman pushed through that recapture penalty.

Yeah. I still can't believe that little Gnome Weasel was able to retrofit that recapture. Should have just been for new contracts moving forward. I'm surprised he didn't work in a clause that protected Chicago and Pittsburgh from any penalties.

[number9 3,297]

Citing Savard, Pronger, and Lindros proves absolutely nothing. The vast majority of players that go through the NHL do not have their careers cut short by concussions, even after multiple.

You spot picked a few bad results out of the hundreds of guys who recover and play

[Buppy 1,720]

Citing Savard, Pronger, and Lindros proves absolutely nothing. The vast majority of players that go through the NHL do not have their careers cut short by concussions, even after multiple.

You spot picked a few bad results out of the hundreds of guys who recover and play

How many of them in their mid-30s, with post concussion syndrome causing them to miss ~4 months in a little over a year?

But you do have a point. The perceived threat to his career is probably inflated due to some high visibility cases.

[number9 3,297]

How many of them in their mid-30s, with post concussion syndrome causing them to miss ~4 months in a little over a year?

But you do have a point. The perceived threat to his career is probably inflated due to some high visibility cases.

It's difficult to find stats about concussions obviously.

Here's one 90 players suffered concussions during the 2011/12 season

Savard, Lindros, and Pronger seem to be the outliers, not the norm.

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Citing Savard, Pronger, and Lindros proves absolutely nothing. The vast majority of players that go through the NHL do not have their careers cut short by concussions, even after multiple.

You spot picked a few bad results out of the hundreds of guys who recover and play

How many of those other guys are in their mid 30s and have had double digit concussions? The more you have, the worse they get. It's a proven medical fact. It shouldn't be hard to understand.

[kipwinger 8,522]

But he is practicing right? So whether or not some people's careers are ended because of concussions doesn't really matter in this case. All indications, barring some set back, seem to point toward him making a recovery. At least I hope so. It's pretty clear he wants to keep playing.

[number9 3,297]

How many of those other guys are in their mid 30s and have had double digit concussions? The more you have, the worse they get. It's a proven medical fact. It shouldn't be hard to understand.

I understand how concussions work. What I don't understand is how you can speculate on the nature of Franzen's without intimate knowledge of his health. Some players can take many concussions and keep playing, and some can't take more than a few. Based on recent news it seems that Franzen is again leaning towards the former, despite your amateur medical assessments from behind a computer screen.

Let's BS some numbers for fun. So there were 90 concussions during the 2011/12 season. Let's pretend that that number is freaky high and say that all other seasons over the past 10 had 50 concussions, since I can't find numbers for them. That's 540 concussions over the past 10 seasons. Let's pretend that only a measly 30% of those occurred to players in their mid 30's. That's 162 concussions occurring to players in their mid 30s over the past 10 seasons. Now let's say only 10% of those 162 apply to guys repeatedly concussed. That's 16.2 repeatably concussed mid 30's players in the last 10 years. And yet Savard, Pronger, and Lindros would only account for 18% of that population that I skewed heavily your way in every possible way.

They are FAR from the norm.

[number9 3,297]

For arguments sake, age isn't really the relevant factor though. It just happens to be the point in a players career in which multiple concussions have accumulated.

So lets be more generous and cut that 540 number in half, and say somehow only 270 concussions occurred over the last 10 years, despite 90 of those coming in one single season.

If a mere 10% of those concussions occurred to repeated players, we're looking at 27 players suffering from repeated concussions in the last 10 seasons. Savard, Pronger, and Lindros would account for just 11% of that population.

[jimmyemeryhunter 2,747]

I don't like those odds.

Ha.

[Guest Playmaker]

I think Franzen himself is far from the norm. I wish him no ill will, but if he never came back it wouldn't bother me at all. He kind of lost me with that "I'm not a goal scorer" bit. It's like hey, don't expect me to do more, just expect less out of me and you won't be so disappointed. For me, it's not even that he doesn't score, but his overall malaise when he's out on the ice. He doesn't play well defensively, he doesn't use his size, he doesn't play physical, he always seems to be 2 steps behind the play. What I really can't stand is when he falls or gets knocked down and it seems to take him forever to get back up. Okay, Johan, you're not a goal scorer, but what do you do?

I've been surprised at how little he has been missed. He's supposed to be a top 6 player and yet his absence is hardly noticeable. Helm is out a few games and there's an obvious change in the feel of the lineup. Don't see Franzen returning this season.

[number9 3,297]

I think Franzen himself is far from the norm. I wish him no ill will, but if he never came back it wouldn't bother me at all. He kind of lost me with that "I'm not a goal scorer" bit. It's like hey, don't expect me to do more, just expect less out of me and you won't be so disappointed. For me, it's not even that he doesn't score, but his overall malaise when he's out on the ice. He doesn't play well defensively, he doesn't use his size, he doesn't play physical, he always seems to be 2 steps behind the play. What I really can't stand is when he falls or gets knocked down and it seems to take him forever to get back up. Okay, Johan, you're not a goal scorer, but what do you do?

I've been surprised at how little he has been missed. He's supposed to be a top 6 player and yet his absence is hardly noticeable. Helm is out a few games and there's an obvious change in the feel of the lineup. Don't see Franzen returning this season.

He must have a ridiculous amount of luck then. Putting up 22 pts in 33 games while being 2 steps behind everyone else is pretty impressive.

Yeah sure, Helm would have won us those last few loses, but not Franzen. No way.

[Guest Playmaker]

I didn't say Helm would have won us those two games. I said the lineup has a completely different feel to it when Helm is out. While most people I talk to are like oh yeah, I forgot about Franzen. I used to spout all the stats about Franzen, too. But with him, they just don't tell the story. I think a good part of the stats that Franzen puts up are due to the fact he gets top 6 minutes and PP time. He's usually playing with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg and that will increase anyone's numbers. Look at Abdelkader. The guy is a 4th liner. He really doesn't have offensive skills, but playing on the top 6 with D and Z has made him a 20 goal scorer. Now if he can get 20 with no skills, Franzen should be able to double that with his shot and size. Franzen will also have the 5 goal game or the 8 goals in 3 games and then go scoreless in 20. Which is fine if you're someone like Pav or Hank who still bring in every night. Another annoyance of his game are the stupid penalties and cheap shots he takes.

Could he come back and contribute this season or in the future? It's possible, and if it happens, great. I just don't expect it to happen anymore. He is what he is. I give those credit who are still sticking with him and still think he's going to return to his 2008 playoff form.

[number9 3,297]

I didn't say Helm would have won us those two games. I said the lineup has a completely different feel to it when Helm is out. While most people I talk to are like oh yeah, I forgot about Franzen. I used to spout all the stats about Franzen, too. But with him, they just don't tell the story. I think a good part of the stats that Franzen puts up are due to the fact he gets top 6 minutes and PP time. He's usually playing with either Datsyuk or Zetterberg and that will increase anyone's numbers. Look at Abdelkader. The guy is a 4th liner. He really doesn't have offensive skills, but playing on the top 6 with D and Z has made him a 20 goal scorer. Now if he can get 20 with no skills, Franzen should be able to double that with his shot and size. Franzen will also have the 5 goal game or the 8 goals in 3 games and then go scoreless in 20. Which is fine if you're someone like Pav or Hank who still bring in every night. Another annoyance of his game are the stupid penalties and cheap shots he takes.

Could he come back and contribute this season or in the future? It's possible, and if it happens, great. I just don't expect it to happen anymore. He is what he is. I give those credit who are still sticking with him and still think he's going to return to his 2008 playoff form.

Franzen had been playing on the 3rd line for a while when he went down.

I notice a different feel to the team when Datsyuk or Zberg are out, but that's about it. Feelings are pretty subjective though. And there's a whole lot of them ppl harbor against Franzen around here that come into play.

I don't expect him to return to 2008 freak form. I just think the picture ppl like to paint of him is pretty skewed.

[toby91_ca 620]

Number9....just a few observations on your crazy stats and percentages.

- I know your numbers are completely made up, which you agree as well, but I think you feel they are skewed low....however, what's missing is how much time those guys are out. Sometimes concussions are very minor and guys literally miss a game or two. Whenever it is gets pretty lengthy, there is reason for concern....or maybe not in that we think the team is taking the right approach.

- Your made up numbers assumed a "measly" 30% would have occurred to guys in their mid-30s. What logic did you use to suggest 30% would be to guys in their mid-30s? Then suggest that you have skewed that lower than the likely actual? Considering that under 10% of the league is 35 or older, not sure how 30% makes any sense.

- But even using that, you've suggested that 18% is a low number of them that had their careers finished because of concussions. Firstly, 18% is a pretty significant number if you ask me, but ignoring that, it was only derived from the 3 high profile guys that were mentioned off the top of someone's head....there are likely many more.

Bottom line, whenever someone has been concussed many times and has missed significant time because of it, there is reason to be concerned and speculation of career limiting impact is not going overboard. There was quite a bit of speculation with Crosby that he was considering retirement during his concussion issues and he was only 23 or something at the time. I understand a lot of that was because of his high profile and I don't believe he and his family were discussing retirement, but the speculation was there.

I'm guessing Franzen will come back, but that doesn't mean the people speculating that he might not are idiots....it is a real concern. A real stupid analogy for you.....a lot of trade rumors go around and never end up happening, doesn't mean those rumors are baseless, e.g. Phaneuf potentially coming to Detroit. That may never, ever happen, but the discussions were serious. Some rumors are made up, some are exactly as what occurs and some are very valid, but never transpire to reality.

[puckloo39 5,686]

I wish I thought Mule was taking a "Forsberg Vacation" duing the regular season, and would come back in the playoffs and be totally effective. Petey used to do this, as you might recall. But Forsberg was Forsberg and Mule is... not.

I don't expect to see Franzen in a Winged Wheel again. If not, I wish him well literally. Better to live and be healthy than skate again and risk permanent and more serious consequences.