McGratton on waivers

[Euro_Twins 4,476]

Who said that?

Gmr of course

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Who said that?

They didn't. But that's what all this talk amounts to. I don't consider giving a 4th line spot to an enforcer as a big deal. 4th liners don't play many minutes anyway and are usually replaceable. Nobody is saying let's sign tough guys and play them on the top line.

Last I checked, Larionov, Robitaille and Holmstrom don't play on our 4th line. Same thing with all the other teams in the league.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I knew a guy who played in the AHL and a few games in the NHL, and now he is in his early 30's and suffers from concussion related issues. He said that he was put into a position where he felt (at the AHL level) that he had to fight or he would lose his job, nobody should have to feel that way. Now, so many year later the guy is paying the price. Fighting on occasion to protect a person, I can live with that. Fighting day in, day out, to me is just plain stupid.

This is the main reason for me why enforcers don't belong to the game. How can you enjoy a staged fight if you know the storys of Boogard and our very own Probert ? If a fight sparks from the heat of the moment, fine, let them go. But those barenuckle fights are just to dangerous to do them night in and night out. And I don't want players on the ice forced to do them.

And you are wondering why we European fans and players are having the reputation of being *******? It's their decision if they know what they are getting themselves into so be it. As a German you should know how much some leagues are sucking - outside of the big 4 - , a rougher playstyle would go a long way off making things at least watchable again.

the nhl has never been that boring but they are approaching that territory in rapid fashion: hip checks almost gone, Stevens like hits gone, Kronwalled? almost gone next up fighting? Sounds like an interesting league doesn't it... Basically the SEL just with more skill..

Kliq: I'm just not interested in watching UFC the entertainment in hockey fights is so different << fans are fired up teammates come together, the atmosphere is electric

It's like doing bungee jumping the testosterone is at its peak and people who watch it are loving every second

[cnot19 191]

I wish hockey was similar to the 90s. I guess those who actually don't play hockey mainly don't realize how much hostility and nastiness there is. Jesus some of you want it to be all class hugs and rainbows

Edited January 12, 2015 by cnot19

[e_prime 1,936]

They didn't. But that's what all this talk amounts to. I don't consider giving a 4th line spot to an enforcer as a big deal. 4th liners don't play many minutes anyway and are usually replaceable. Nobody is saying let's sign tough guys and play them on the top line.

Last I checked, Larionov, Robitaille and Holmstrom don't play on our 4th line. Same thing with all the other teams in the league.

Um, last time I checked... Andersson can't even hold on to a fourth line spot. So, I don't know where you could gather that from "this" talk.

I'd take an enforcer... but Babcock wouldn't play them anyway.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I wish hockey was similar to the 90s. I guess those who actually don't play hockey mainly don't realize how much hostility and nastiness there is. Jesus some of you want it to be all class hugs and rainbows

Yep. Most Wings fans here don't like that part of the game because they've never seen their team actually play it.

[Mckinley25 677]

Yep. Most Wings fans here don't like that part of the game because they've never seen their team actually play it.

That's not even remotely true.

[Mckinley25 677]

I wish hockey was similar to the 90s. I guess those who actually don't play hockey mainly don't realize how much hostility and nastiness there is. Jesus some of you want it to be all class hugs and rainbows

There's a number of anti-fighting members on this forum that play or did. Unless you meant professionally.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

Would you guys be happy with Jordan Nolan? He does it all a and is a great fourth liner

Edited January 12, 2015 by frankgrimes

[kliq 3,755]

And you are wondering why we European fans and players are having the reputation of being *******? It's their decision if they know what they are getting themselves into so be it. As a German you should know how much some leagues are sucking - outside of the big 4 - , a rougher playstyle would go a long way off making things at least watchable again. the nhl has never been that boring but they are approaching that territory in rapid fashion: hip checks almost gone, Stevens like hits gone, Kronwalled? almost gone next up fighting? Sounds like an interesting league doesn't it... Basically the SEL just with more skill.. Kliq: I'm just not interested in watching UFC the entertainment in hockey fights is so different << fans are fired up teammates come together, the atmosphere is electric It's like doing bungee jumping the testosterone is at its peak and people who watch it are loving every second

You say its their decision, but in some cases these guys have no choice I can tell you with 100% certainty that some of these guys want to just play hockey, but are pressured by coaches/management.

You also say they know what they are getting themselves into. Interview guys that are now in their 50's or 60's that fought back in their day all the time that now have concussion issues (just look at all the lawsuits, or at how many guys are now dead). I guarantee you a lot of them will say that if they knew then what they know now, they would not have fought as much. Its like a teenager who drives like an idiot because they think they are indestructible, its not taken seriously until its too late.

People need to move forward. With the advances in medicine and concussion research, and the ridiculous athleticism/strength of athletes now a days, fans need to learn to move forward and realize that we have to start looking at the health of these players, and not our own personal entertainment. Bottom line, staged fights and constant blows to the head for no reason need to end. Yes this is a sport, and people do get hurt, but the NHL needs to be smart about this and try to do whats in the best interest of the players.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

So if I'm understanding you right, you aren't against fighting because of hating it you are against it because of health concerns? Let me tell you if a player doesn't feel like doing it he shouldn't.

Tie Domi, The Grim Ripper are former enforcers who are doing very well if life now. Stu is an attorney

But you are right it's an incredible tough job hence why I'm having so much respect for these guys

[Jesusberg 1,256]

They didn't. But that's what all this talk amounts to. I don't consider giving a 4th line spot to an enforcer as a big deal. 4th liners don't play many minutes anyway and are usually replaceable. Nobody is saying let's sign tough guys and play them on the top line.

Last I checked, Larionov, Robitaille and Holmstrom don't play on our 4th line. Same thing with all the other teams in the league.

OK. I can agree with the idea that 4th liners are, to varying degrees, replaceable players. So let's take a look at what's been this team most used combination on the fourth line: Miller-Gledening-Andersson. On this current team, I think it's very clear that you don't replace Drew Miller or Luke Glendening with an enforcer type player. Detroit is 5th on the PK in the league, and a whole lot of that has to do with Miller and Glendening. They both hit (not a ton, but enough), block shots and make smart defensive plays on a nightly basis.

That leaves Andersson, who I fully admit is not an ideal 4th liner. Doesn't hit or block much - his ability to play on the PK is pretty much his only redeeming quality at this point. As I mentioned before, this team uses eight guys on the PP, leaving four to work the PK. In this case, Andersson's value is that he's not going to make guys like Sheahan or Abdelkader work on both the PP and PK.

I just don't get the idea of adding a player whose sole contribution to the team is dropping the gloves and "keeping people honest". I named a few guys who are effective in other ways (Dorsett, Prust, Roussel, etc.) who I would take over Andersson without a doubt, but all of them chip in offensively, or also work the PK. There is zero room for a "pure" enforcer type player on this team. It just doesn't fit this team's needs.

Not to mention, when this team's fully healthy, it's not using Andersson on the 4th line - it's likely Weiss or Helm. And I just hope you're not advocating using someone like McGrattan or Boll over either of those two.

[rick zombo 3,739]

So if I'm understanding you right, you aren't against fighting because of hating it you are against it because of health concerns? Let me tell you if a player doesn't feel like doing it he shouldn't. Tie Domi, The Grim Ripper are former enforcers who are doing very well if life now. Stu is an attorney But you are right it's an incredible tough job hence why I'm having so much respect for these guys

Yeah and George Paros, who was widely considered the smartest man in hockey, can do pretty much anything he wants now that he’s no longer playing hockey. EXCEPT MAYBE HE CAN’T BECAUSE HE MIGHT END UP WITH JELLO FOR BRAINS NOW BECAUSE OF ******* FIGHTING IN THE NHL.

Christ.

[HadThomasVokounOnFortSt 878]

Yeah and George Paros, who was widely considered the smartest man in hockey, can do pretty much anything he wants now that he’s no longer playing hockey. EXCEPT MAYBE HE CAN’T BECAUSE HE MIGHT END UP WITH JELLO FOR BRAINS NOW BECAUSE OFf****** FIGHTING IN THE NHL.

Christ.

A buddy of mine who is turning 21 can't play contact hockey anymore after having way to many concussions and NOT a single one came from fighting. He got them all from getting hit. People saying that concussions in the NHL is straight from fighting is ridiculous and should probably just go watch girls hockey.

[kliq 3,755]

So if I'm understanding you right, you aren't against fighting because of hating it you are against it because of health concerns? Let me tell you if a player doesn't feel like doing it he shouldn't. Tie Domi, The Grim Ripper are former enforcers who are doing very well if life now. Stu is an attorney But you are right it's an incredible tough job hence why I'm having so much respect for these guys

I dont like the long term effects of fighting in the NHL. If there was no such thing as concussions/Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy my stance would likely differ.

On the topic of staged fights, my biggest issue is I feel that people can only be hit in the head so many times before long term damage begins. So if there is going to be fighting in hockey, at least if it was once in a blue moon, the amount of blows to the head these guys take would be limited. When you have staged fights, they are just getting hit over and over and over again, and I feel that issues down the road are inevitable. After seeing what has happened to guys like Probert, Boogaard, Belak, etc. and seeing proof that these guys (not sure about Belak) had Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy, I don't want to see other players go down this road or God forbid we ever see a Chris Benoit situation ever happen in the NHL.

A buddy of mine who is turning 21 can't play contact hockey anymore after having way to many concussions and NOT a single one came from fighting. He got them all from getting hit. People saying that concussions in the NHL is straight from fighting is ridiculous and should probably just go watch girls hockey.

If this is directed at me, I completely agree that concussions can also come from hits. But to think they dont come from fighting is just plain wrong. Taking hitting out of the game would obviously change the game drastically, even taking out fighting could change the game drastically as I see the argument that this could lead to guys taking cheap shots as there would be no fear of ramifications. But staged fights.....taking them out would change nothing.

[derblaueClaus 1,668]

And you are wondering why we European fans and players are having the reputation of being *******? It's their decision if they know what they are getting themselves into so be it. As a German you should know how much some leagues are sucking - outside of the big 4 - , a rougher playstyle would go a long way off making things at least watchable again. the nhl has never been that boring but they are approaching that territory in rapid fashion: hip checks almost gone, Stevens like hits gone, Kronwalled? almost gone next up fighting? Sounds like an interesting league doesn't it... Basically the SEL just with more skill..

Frank, I can not add anything to what kliq said. He and I are both on the same page. I don't have anything against fighting per se, but I'm against fighting just for the sake of it for the reasons kliq already stated. And I'm therefore against guys whose sole purpose is doing exactly that. I watch enough European hockey here (DEL) and don't worry the NHL is still harder and far more enjoyable to watch. Even without staged fights and guys like McGrattan.

[e_prime 1,936]

Riiiiiiiigggghhhhht!

Okay. You're right. It was to rehash the endless pro-fighting/anti-fighting debate that LGW loves to have every so often.

...but seriously... Really. You wanna know when people should fight? Hmmmm, like maybe when you get cross-checked in the face.

That's when fights should happen.

[WorkingOvertime 536]

If this is directed at me, I completely agree that concussions can also come from hits. But to think they dont come from fighting is just plain wrong. Taking hitting out of the game would obviously change the game drastically, even taking out fighting could change the game drastically as I see the argument that this could lead to guys taking cheap shots as there would be no fear of ramifications. But staged fights.....taking them out would change nothing.

How do you define a staged fight? Was S. Thornton v. Cooke staged? Was Getzlaf v. J. Thornton in game 6 of the WCQF staged?

IMO there needs to be more team toughness in the NHL and fewer enforcers.

Okay. You're right. It was to rehash the endless pro-fighting/anti-fighting debate that LGW loves to have every so often.

...but seriously... Really. You wanna know when people should fight? Hmmmm, like maybe when you get cross-checked in the face.

That's when fights should happen.

It happened yesterday.

[frankgrimes 1,836]

And you are wondering why we European fans and players are having the reputation of being *******? It's their decision if they know what they are getting themselves into so be it. As a German you should know how much some leagues are sucking - outside of the big 4 - , a rougher playstyle would go a long way off making things at least watchable again. the nhl has never been that boring but they are approaching that territory in rapid fashion: hip checks almost gone, Stevens like hits gone, Kronwalled? almost gone next up fighting? Sounds like an interesting league doesn't it... Basically the SEL just with more skill..

Frank, I can not add anything to what kliq said. He and I are both on the same page. I don't have anything against fighting per se, but I'm against fighting just for the sake of it for the reasons kliq already stated. And I'm therefore against guys whose sole purpose is doing exactly that. I watch enough European hockey here (DEL) and don't worry the NHL is still harder and far more enjoyable to watch. Even without staged fights and guys like McGrattan.

Not trying to offend you but isn't the DEL considered one of the lesser leagues in Europe? Outside of the NLA, SEL and KHL there seems to be a huge drop down. But that Draisaitl kid should be very good

Would you be fine with a guy like Reaves? He does it all just like Nolan

[DickieDunn 2,571]

Yeah and George Paros, who was widely considered the smartest man in hockey, can do pretty much anything he wants now that he’s no longer playing hockey. EXCEPT MAYBE HE CAN’T BECAUSE HE MIGHT END UP WITH JELLO FOR BRAINS NOW BECAUSE OFf****** FIGHTING IN THE NHL.

Christ.

So maybe he should quit playing hockey since he isn't good enough to do it unless he fights.

OK. I can agree with the idea that 4th liners are, to varying degrees, replaceable players. So let's take a look at what's been this team most used combination on the fourth line: Miller-Gledening-Andersson. On this current team, I think it's very clear that you don't replace Drew Miller or Luke Glendening with an enforcer type player. Detroit is 5th on the PK in the league, and a whole lot of that has to do with Miller and Glendening. They both hit (not a ton, but enough), block shots and make smart defensive plays on a nightly basis.

That leaves Andersson, who I fully admit is not an ideal 4th liner. Doesn't hit or block much - his ability to play on the PK is pretty much his only redeeming quality at this point. As I mentioned before, this team uses eight guys on the PP, leaving four to work the PK. In this case, Andersson's value is that he's not going to make guys like Sheahan or Abdelkader work on both the PP and PK.

I just don't get the idea of adding a player whose sole contribution to the team is dropping the gloves and "keeping people honest". I named a few guys who are effective in other ways (Dorsett, Prust, Roussel, etc.) who I would take over Andersson without a doubt, but all of them chip in offensively, or also work the PK. There is zero room for a "pure" enforcer type player on this team. It just doesn't fit this team's needs.

Not to mention, when this team's fully healthy, it's not using Andersson on the 4th line - it's likely Weiss or Helm. And I just hope you're not advocating using someone like McGrattan or Boll over either of those two.

Andersson is a reserve forward, he only plays when another forward is hurt. There is no regular player who should be replaced by a goon.

[e_prime 1,936]

How do you define a staged fight? Was S. Thornton v. Cooke staged? Was Getzlaf v. J. Thornton in game 6 of the WCQF staged?

IMO there needs to be more team toughness in the NHL and fewer enforcers.

It happened yesterday.

That's specifically the incident I was alluding to.

[Jesusberg 1,256]

So maybe he should quit playing hockey since he isn't good enough to do it unless he fights.

Andersson is a reserve forward, he only plays when another forward is hurt. There is no regular player who should be replaced by a goon.

Which is what I said...

"Not to mention, when this team's fully healthy, it's not using Andersson on the 4th line - it's likely Weiss or Helm. And I just hope you're not advocating using someone like McGrattan or Boll over either of those two."

[Echolalia 2,961]

How do you define a staged fight? Was S. Thornton v. Cooke staged? Was Getzlaf v. J. Thornton in game 6 of the WCQF staged?

IMO there needs to be more team toughness in the NHL and fewer enforcers.

It happened yesterday.

No worries, everyone. Weber took care of that rat Cooke by fighting him, so Cooke will be on his best behavior now.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Echolalia

[e_prime 1,936]

No worries, everyone. Weber took care of that rat Cooke by fighting him, so Cooke will be on his best behavior now.

Fighting his own battles! He must be a super-heavyweight!

Of course, lets not gloss over the fact that Weber has his stick up and is ready to feed Cooke some splinters, as well...

[WorkingOvertime 536]

No worries, everyone. Weber took care of that rat Cooke by fighting him, so Cooke will be on his best behavior now.

Should Weber have let Cooke spear or cross-check him in the face a second time? The Wild play the Predators on Feb 26, let me know if Cooke does that to Weber again.

Edited January 12, 2015 by WorkingOvertime