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kliq

Jimmy Howard.......All-Star!

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It seems to me like Mrazek either plays lights out, or just breaks down and gives up some weak ones. Howie had those consistency issues early on, too. I'm sure if Petr talks to him about it, he'll get better as time goes on. A young Luke Skywalker, training with Master Yoda, if you will.

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That's precisely why we should run with a 50/50 Howard/Mrazek setup in the next few years. He's not anywhere near his prime yet. Balance the load and run with the hot goalie in the playoffs. It worked for us in 2008. We haven't really had a chance to try it since.

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Yeah he is incredible overrated and I'm not sure if his overly aggressive style will work well in the playoffs or after other teams start figuring hin out. Kid got a few games played well for the most part but that's about it.

Again with this crap? Explain to me how numbers like 9-3-1, .914 and 2.44 makes a goalie over-rated. No wait, incredible overrated.

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It seems to me that Mrazek is a rookie goalie that's only 22, about 8 years away from his prime, who is 9-3-2 with a .914 SV% and a 2.44 GAA. He may be inconsistent within a game or from game to game, but those numbers don't lie.

I don't know about 8 years away.

I read an article where somebody had crunched a bunch of numbers and found that (mind you this was about skaters offensive production, but) most players peaked at about 27-28-29 years old.

Their performance (production) was only about 80% peak around 22-23 years old, growing steadily up till their peak (100%).

It was interesting to see how quickly production fell off after that. They had a year or two at about 70-80%, then it quickly dropped down to like 40% and dwindling.

I'll see if I can find it later. I know I posted a link to it last winter. I think it was in a franzen thread, or maybe a 'kids' thread.

EDIT: I found these. I don't think either is the one I was thinking of, but the 2014 one might be.

http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/13/5500522/nhl-scoring-stats-rates-age-analysis

http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age

It's even younger than I thought it was.

Edited by roboturner

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I've got no problem with Mrazek having some troubles early on like this. The kid needs to know how hard he still has to work to be a day in and day out goalie in the NHL. I'd rather him have an up and down start than a great start where the growing pains come later. It's just a huge plus that in the couple rougher outings thus far, we've still manage to walk away with wins one way or another.

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I really don't understand the flak Howard gets, or the short, SHORT, leash he's been given.

For some reason, he's been labeled an barely average- average goalie. It almost seems like the fans, or just hockey fans in general, are hypocritical about the guy.

Barely average-average= a .900-.910. .915 on a good year? Maybe 60% at the shootout?

If that's what we expect from Howard, then last season he shouldn't have really been crucified. He played within his talent level, accord to most. You see, to me, Barely average- average goalies do not post .920+ the majority of their career (so far). To me, until his average season last season, an average goalie doesn't post around 75% in the shootout, consistently. To me, that's high end of above average goal tending. Or has he just been overachieving his whole career? And don't tell be it's because of the stout defense we put out on that ice. /sarcasm

Oh, but what about this year's shootout numbers! Statistical anomalies happen. You just don't go from one of the better shootout goalies, to the worst, without a reason. I'm sure it will be fixed.

Mrazek has talent. But he's far from ready. He has had the benefit of an offensive burst from the Wings right now. Sure it's a team game. But had it been Howard it net letting in those very same goals? The man would be on GOAT status, if he isn't there already.

Mrazek can't catch a puck. He can't swallow a puck. Sure Jimmy's rebound control was bad, but not this bad. It was mostly Jimmy's kick saves (as still kind of there) that were the problem. Never a glove issue, or swallowing the puck...to this degree.

I feel like Mrazek supporters are on a high right now because "he's winning". But once there's a stretch where he needs to squeeze points from 5-6 1 goal games in a row. I know Jimmy can do it. Mrazek? I'm not so sure. And as excited as some people are, and as I am, I'm not ready to hand over the reigns to the kid until he's 100% better than Jimmy. And Jimmy is a realllly good goal tender. It won't be an easy take over, no matter how we try to conjure up a scenario.

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I really don't understand the flak Howard gets, or the short, SHORT, leash he's been given.

For some reason, he's been labeled an barely average- average goalie. It almost seems like the fans, or just hockey fans in general, are hypocritical about the guy.

Barely average-average= a .900-.910. .915 on a good year? Maybe 60% at the shootout?

If that's what we expect from Howard, then last season he shouldn't have really been crucified. He played within his talent level, accord to most. You see, to me, Barely average- average goalies do not post .920+ the majority of their career (so far). To me, until his average season last season, an average goalie doesn't post around 75% in the shootout, consistently. To me, that's high end of above average goal tending. Or has he just been overachieving his whole career? And don't tell be it's because of the stout defense we put out on that ice. /sarcasm

Oh, but what about this year's shootout numbers! Statistical anomalies happen. You just don't go from one of the better shootout goalies, to the worst, without a reason. I'm sure it will be fixed.

Mrazek has talent. But he's far from ready. He has had the benefit of an offensive burst from the Wings right now. Sure it's a team game. But had it been Howard it net letting in those very same goals? The man would be on GOAT status, if he isn't there already.

Mrazek can't catch a puck. He can't swallow a puck. Sure Jimmy's rebound control was bad, but not this bad. It was mostly Jimmy's kick saves (as still kind of there) that were the problem. Never a glove issue, or swallowing the puck...to this degree.

I feel like Mrazek supporters are on a high right now because "he's winning". But once there's a stretch where he needs to squeeze points from 5-6 1 goal games in a row. I know Jimmy can do it. Mrazek? I'm not so sure. And as excited as some people are, and as I am, I'm not ready to hand over the reigns to the kid until he's 100% better than Jimmy. And Jimmy is a realllly good goal tender. It won't be an easy take over, no matter how we try to conjure up a scenario.

I love Jimmy, don't get me wrong and he is our #1 goalie. I'm not on the bandwagon of getting rid of him. However, you have to agree Mrazek has only had limited NHL experience and is doing pretty damn well as our #1 right now. We haven't had a goalie like that coming up through our draft system since I don't know when. I only see him getting better. Yes, he'll have his ups and downs just like any goalie. However, remember, he's a rookie that is our #1 right now, and without these injuries to Monster and Jimmy, would still be playing in the AHL.

Dynheart .. yes, voice of reason.

Who's reason?

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When you choose to be a goalie....it's this type of scrutiny you need to deal with. It's been this way since the beginning of time. We may joke about Wings fans always arguing or being tough on our goalies, but it's not a Wings thing, it's not an NHL thing, it's a hockey thing...it starts as soon as a 5 or 6 year old straps on the pads (believe me, I've heard the parents in the stands grumbling a bit about why the 5 year old can't stop more of the shots).

With that out of the way, I don't think Howard is a barely average to average goalie, but I also don't think he's one of the elite. He has put up good numbers and was putting up good numbers this year as well. I know there was an article talking about the goalies that could be considered for Vezina consideration and he was amongst the 7 or 8, but there's no way I would have had him in my top 3 finalists. I think at times he's average, but mostly an above average goalie. Most importantly though, if he wasn't above average, the Wings would have a much worse record.....upgrading him won't help the Wings too much at this point, there isn't all that much room for improvement.

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I really don't understand the flak Howard gets, or the short, SHORT, leash he's been given.

For some reason, he's been labeled an barely average- average goalie. It almost seems like the fans, or just hockey fans in general, are hypocritical about the guy.

Barely average-average= a .900-.910. .915 on a good year? Maybe 60% at the shootout?

If that's what we expect from Howard, then last season he shouldn't have really been crucified. He played within his talent level, accord to most. You see, to me, Barely average- average goalies do not post .920+ the majority of their career (so far). To me, until his average season last season, an average goalie doesn't post around 75% in the shootout, consistently. To me, that's high end of above average goal tending. Or has he just been overachieving his whole career? And don't tell be it's because of the stout defense we put out on that ice. /sarcasm

Oh, but what about this year's shootout numbers! Statistical anomalies happen. You just don't go from one of the better shootout goalies, to the worst, without a reason. I'm sure it will be fixed.

Mrazek has talent. But he's far from ready. He has had the benefit of an offensive burst from the Wings right now. Sure it's a team game. But had it been Howard it net letting in those very same goals? The man would be on GOAT status, if he isn't there already.

Mrazek can't catch a puck. He can't swallow a puck. Sure Jimmy's rebound control was bad, but not this bad. It was mostly Jimmy's kick saves (as still kind of there) that were the problem. Never a glove issue, or swallowing the puck...to this degree.

I feel like Mrazek supporters are on a high right now because "he's winning". But once there's a stretch where he needs to squeeze points from 5-6 1 goal games in a row. I know Jimmy can do it. Mrazek? I'm not so sure. And as excited as some people are, and as I am, I'm not ready to hand over the reigns to the kid until he's 100% better than Jimmy. And Jimmy is a realllly good goal tender. It won't be an easy take over, no matter how we try to conjure up a scenario.

I don't think as many people are s***ting on Jimmy as you suggest. I think Mrazek has the potential to take over the starting job in the next couple years, but it doesn't mean I think Jimmy as anything short of a very good and at times great goalie, and most certainly well above average at just about all times.

I do think he has flaws working against him, like any player does, though one of his is playoff performance. Thus far, he's yet to play as well in the playoffs as we've seen him play in the regular season, and while not all bad, there have been some rough outings for him in the big show. If he loses the job to Mrazek, my guess is that's going to be why. But he could also solidify his status by having playoff success this year or next. He and the team are capable of it at this point, and thankfully, there are no shootouts in the playoffs. Don't think for a second that I won't be rooting for him.

But also in Mrazek's defense, we've seen a lot more of him at a earlier point in time in his development than we saw of Jimmy. Jimmy was not exactly in the best of shape earlier on, and didn't make the team as a backup until they were out of options for him. And even at that point, three years older than where Mrazek is at now, he had quite a few glaring flaws in his game he still had to work out. And he's never fully worked out his mediocre and at times piss-poor puck handling. And to be fair, Howard, even much further into his career than Mrazek, had a season where 3rd period meltdowns became a semi-regular occurrence just last year. Mrazek clearly has a lot of room for growth and improvement, but there's a lot of potential there and he seems to have the right attitude about it all.

Again, I do think at some point in the near future there will be a battle for that number one spot between Mrazek and Howard, but it's a very good problem to have, as Howard is at the very least a very good goalie, so if Mrazek ends up being better, then we are in a great spot indeed.

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I love Jimmy, don't get me wrong and he is our #1 goalie. I'm not on the bandwagon of getting rid of him. However, you have to agree Mrazek has only had limited NHL experience and is doing pretty damn well as our #1 right now. We haven't had a goalie like that coming up through our draft system since I don't know when. I only see him getting better. Yes, he'll have his ups and downs just like any goalie. However, remember, he's a rookie that is our #1 right now, and without these injuries to Monster and Jimmy, would still be playing in the AHL.

Who's reason?

Let's be frank, just about every rookie (save for the very bad ones) comes up to the NHL and looks like the next Roy. That is until the league figures them out. Then all of the sudden those .939 1.34 back to back seasons (playing only 18 games or so) dip down drastically to something like ...885. Back to the AHL they go. Maybe a couple of them will be seen in the NHL a couple of years from now as a back up. Or they just fade away, and those rookie seasons get chalked up as flukes.

Mrazek is lumped in with these very same rookies until he's proven. I'm not too quick to jump on a boat that I've seen way too many times...that just ends up sinking. And for that reason, there's no reason to shorten Howards leash...on an already shortened leash by the fans.

Is Mrazek Talented? He looks like it. But he's certainly not ready to take over Jimmy's job.

@toby91: Every goalie goes through rough patches. Even the top 5 that people always drool over. That's why you look at the big picture. Not a hand full of games here and there that can be cherry picked to make a case that the goalie is just plain average (see, I have proof! he went on a stretch of 8 games where he averaged .905).

The man may not have elite stretches as good as the top 5. But when he has his low points, he still performs on par, with you average goalie. I rarely see Howard get lit up for more than 4. And that's rare. It's 1-2, with an occasional 3. 4 being a bad game. He's let in more than 4 throughout his career, but I'm sure there's maybe a dozen of them. He just plods along with 1-2/occasional 3 goals against for the majority of career. To me, his consistency is constantly understated. Never elite. But never really bad. And people talk as if this is a bad thing.

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The man may not have elite stretches as good as the top 5. But when he has his low points, he still performs on par, with you average goalie. I rarely see Howard get lit up for more than 4. And that's rare. It's 1-2, with an occasional 3. 4 being a bad game. He's let in more than 4 throughout his career, but I'm sure there's maybe a dozen of them. He just plods along with 1-2/occasional 3 goals against for the majority of career. To me, his consistency is constantly understated. Never elite. But never really bad. And people talk as if this is a bad thing.

Howard reminds me of Osgood in this way. He's an excellent goalie, but will usually allow 2-3 goals a night. If we're scoring the way we can, that's not going to hurt us. But both goalies were just short of the elite class that can win games 1-0 regularly. There's maybe a handful that can do that consistently, most can't.

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Howard reminds me of Osgood in this way. He's an excellent goalie, but will usually allow 2-3 goals a night. If we're scoring the way we can, that's not going to hurt us. But both goalies were just short of the elite class that can win games 1-0 regularly. There's maybe a handful that can do that consistently, most can't.

I largely agree about the general level of quality of their play, but Howard's still got something to prove in the playoffs. At 25, Osgood was the starter for a Cup winning team and had racked up more playoff wins than Howard has at 30. Howard didn't even make the team until he was 25.

I'm generally a supporter of Jimmy Howard and like him and his attitude a lot, but he still has something to prove in the playoffs. He's been spotty thus far; at times he's been excellent, and at times he has looked average at best. This wouldn't be such a big deal to me at least except for the fact that we have all seen what he's capable of at his best. Even in his best playoff runs thus far, I don't think he's approached the level of play we've seen from him numerous times in the regular season.

Again, we've seen what he can do. He's obviously capable of being a great goalie based on what he's shown during stretches of the regular season. But he's got to find a way to elevate his game to his regular season level at the right moment. That's what great goalies do. He was mostly great in 2013, but team wasn't ready and the defense didn't help him enough. These next couple of years though, he's going to have a team in front of him that has what it takes to make some serious playoff noise. There's never been a better time for him to find his A-Game when it matters most.

If Howard plays like we know he's capable of and the team around him doesn't shut down, we will absolutely be in the hunt for a Cup this year or next, I have no doubt about it.

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"@AnsarKhanMLive: Howard left midway through practice. Appears to still be at least a week away from returning."

I really like how mraz has been good enough for Jimmy to take his time getting healthy rather than hurrying back.

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"@AnsarKhanMLive: Howard left midway through practice. Appears to still be at least a week away from returning."

I really like how mraz has been good enough for Jimmy to take his time getting healthy rather than hurrying back.

"Good enough" maybe in two games. The rest of them the wings had to put score mrazek's mistakes. Sure we've won quite a bit but I for one can't wait for our number one to get back.

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That's precisely why we should run with a 50/50 Howard/Mrazek setup in the next few years. He's not anywhere near his prime yet. Balance the load and run with the hot goalie in the playoffs. It worked for us in 2008. We haven't really had a chance to try it since.

A case could be made for this, but I can't see Howard splitting time, at least not anytime soon. He makes $5 million a season. That's too much money to have him sit on the bench for 40 games.

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Definitely going to need Jimmy back for that gauntlet road trip to close out February. Mrazek has been decent and thankfully the offense has been scoring goals, but the Red Wings are a much better team going forward with Jimmy Howard in goal. Hope he can stay healthy down the stretch and for the playoff run.

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"Good enough" maybe in two games. The rest of them the wings had to put score mrazek's mistakes. Sure we've won quite a bit but I for one can't wait for our number one to get back.

Agreed. I'm not by any stretch saying that mraz is ready to be a regular starter or anything.. I can't wait for Howie to come back either. I guess I should've said that the wings winning regularly lately make it so Howie doesn't have to rush back.

I just hope we don't forget how to put up goals with Jimmy back between the pipes.

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Update....

Jimmy Howard hasn’t played since Jan. 10 because of a torn groin muscle, but on Tuesday the Red Wings goaltender took a big step forward by participating in Detroit’s practice. He still won’t be available on Thursday against Colorado or Saturday versus Arizona, but if all goes well he’ll return for Detroit’s game against Pittsburgh on Feb. 11.

source: http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/03/howard-resumes-practicing-could-play-next-week/

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