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Hockeytown0001

1/27 GDT : Red Wings 5 at Panthers 4

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Ok, like most I know it's annoying to bash Franzen. Honestly are there any LGW members who like having him in the lineup? There is no longer playoff beast mode Mule, he's got concussion issues, I hope he's really considering hanging up the skates too.

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I wouldn't be surprised to hear Franzen retire early. When he's playing at 100 percent and with a chip on his shoulder he can be a huge part of the team. The problem is his stretches of games where he plays like that are getting smaller and smaller and when he is phoning it in he is a detriment to the team. Decent defensively but nothing happens offensively when he's dragging his ass and it kills the whole line

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Myth 1: Franzen is less productive now than he has ever been.

Wrong. His points per game are right around his career average.

Myth 2: Franzen is streakier, and disappears more than in the past.

Wrong. He's played 33 games. He's got a point in 18 of them. 14 single point games and 4 multi point games. Again, right in line with his career trends.

I don't care if he's on the team or not. We can clearly win without him, which is reason enough to want him gone. But can we stop making up crap to make him seem worse than he is? It's the same old Mule, much to the chagrin (or consternation) of the fans.

Edited by kipwinger

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Myth 1: Franzen is less productive now than he has ever been.

Wrong. His points per game are right around his career average.

Myth 2: Franzen is streakier, and disappears more than in the past.

Wrong. He's played 33 games. He's got a point in 18 of them. 14 single point games and 4 multi point games. Again, right in line with his career trends.

I don't care if he's on the team or not. We can clearly win without him, which is reason enough to want him gone. But can we stop making up crap to make him seem worse than he is? It's the same old Mule, much to the chagrin (or consternation) of the fans.

Why use his career average? It's not like he's put up around the same number of points since he entered the league. His first few seasons are not why he got that contract.

He's at .67 PPG this season (Nevermind that he's also a -12 and half his points are on the PP).

The previous four seasons his PPG were .76, .76, .73 and .72. It's a small sample size, but it is also a significant drop. It is not made up.

I don't know if he's streakier or not overall but prior to his injury, he had 1 goal in 20 games.

And it goes beyond points. You can't quantify his disappearing act by points. Players often factor in games without showing up on the scoresheet. There's so many games that go by where you don't even notice Franzen, and that shouldn't happen with someone of his talent. Guys like Sheahan and Tatar regularly factor into games more than Mule, even when they don't score.

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My post was just wondering if anyone on this forum likes having him on the team.

No doubt. My point is that, if you don't like having him on the team because he's no longer needed is one thing. It's an entirely different thing if you don't like having him on the team because of some perceived decline in ability...which would be a false pretense. I don't care if they got rid of him either. The emergence of the kids makes him unnecessary. But he's the same player he's always been. An injury prone, pretty consistent 50-55 pts. guy. His performance this year has not deviated from that norm.

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Why use his career average? It's not like he's put up around the same number of points since he entered the league. His first few seasons are not why he got that contract.

He's at .67 PPG this season (Nevermind that he's also a -12 and half his points are on the PP).

The previous four seasons his PPG were .76, .76, .73 and .72. It's a small sample size, but it is also a significant drop. It is not made up.

I don't know if he's streakier or not overall but prior to his injury, he had 1 goal in 20 games.

And it goes beyond points. You can't quantify his disappearing act by points. Players often factor in games without showing up on the scoresheet. There's so many games that go by where you don't even notice Franzen, and that shouldn't happen with someone of his talent. Guys like Sheahan and Tatar regularly factor into games more than Mule, even when they don't score.

He's scoring at .67 ppg despite a pretty big slump (as you point out). He's gone through those before. Nothing about his play this year led me to believe that he wouldn't end with right around 55 pts. Which is usual for him. I dont' see some big, qualitative difference in his play. He was doing what he does every year.

I agree, lots of people factor into games even when they don't score. Those guys are better than Franzen. And it's because of those guys that he's no longer necessary. But he is what he's always been. The only difference between then and now is that we no longer rely on him as much. But quite a lot of people here have said, or implied, that his performance is worse this year than in years past. I just don't see it. If Nyquist and Tatar (and Abby to a lesser extent) hadn't emerged into go-to guys, Franzen would have been glued to Zetterberg or Datsyuk's wing like he always is, and his PPG probably wouldn't even have dipped at all.

Edited by kipwinger

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He's scoring at .67 ppg despite a pretty big slump (as you point out). He's gone through those before. Nothing about his play this year led me to believe that he wouldn't end with right around 55 pts. Which is usual for him. I dont' see some big, qualitative difference in his play. He was doing what he does every year.

I agree, lots of people factor into games even when they don't score. Those guys are better than Franzen. And it's because of those guys that he's no longer necessary. But he is what he's always been. The only difference between then and now is that we no longer rely on him as much. But quite a lot of people here have said, or implied, that his performance is worse this year than in years past. I just don't see it. If Nyquist and Tatar (and Abby to a lesser extent) hadn't emerged into go-to guys, Franzen would have been glued to Zetterberg or Datsyuk's wing like he always is, and his PPG probably wouldn't even have dipped at all.

Very fair points.

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Hmm...Franzen's definitely not where he always is. He's a -12 for one thing. He's never been a minus player over a whole season. That will be a hard hole to dig out of. And 7 g in 33 gp vs. 16 in 54 or 14 in 41. I don't want to attempt the math, but he is not at his usual pace for goals. We have 34 games left and, if he played the rest (not probable) and kept current pace, he would be at 14 in 67 games. Not good.

It's too bad. He looked really good for the first 10 games. Maybe he's decided to get his quota of bad games in before Christmas and make a push in the second half. Let hope, but it's good that it hasn't effected the team all that much.

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Hmm...Franzen's definitely not where he always is. He's a -12 for one thing. He's never been a minus player over a whole season. That will be a hard hole to dig out of. And 7 g in 33 gp vs. 16 in 54 or 14 in 41. I don't want to attempt the math, but he is not at his usual pace for goals. We have 34 games left and, if he played the rest (not probable) and kept current pace, he would be at 14 in 67 games. Not good.

It's too bad. He looked really good for the first 10 games. Maybe he's decided to get his quota of bad games in before Christmas and make a push in the second half. Let hope, but it's good that it hasn't effected the team all that much.

Franzen goes through droughts every single year. He was on a goal scoring drought this year. I don't see what the difference is? He had 16 goals and 25 assists last year in 54 games. He had 7 goals and 15 assists in 33 games this year. It's that that much of a drop off. Especially given how hot and cold he runs. Again, I'm not saying we've got to keep the guy or anything. He's clearly not necessary for the team's success. But I think this Franzen has regressed narrative is overblown.

Also, can we all agree that using plus/minus to make a point you want to, and then lambasting it as a "worthless stat" the rest of the time, is shaky at best. I've seen you personally talk trash about the plus/minus stat. So I'm not sure why you're using to make a case now.

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Franzen goes through droughts every single year. He was on a goal scoring drought this year. I don't see what the difference is? He had 16 goals and 25 assists last year in 54 games. He had 7 goals and 15 assists in 33 games this year. It's that that much of a drop off. Especially given how hot and cold he runs. Again, I'm not saying we've got to keep the guy or anything. He's clearly not necessary for the team's success. But I think this Franzen has regressed narrative is overblown.

Also, can we all agree that using plus/minus to make a point you want to, and then lambasting it as a "worthless stat" the rest of the time, is shaky at best. I've seen you personally talk trash about the plus/minus stat. So I'm not sure why you're using to make a case now.

Okay I can see that - Maybe the "Franzen has regressed" narrative is overblown. I did seen in places people say that "injuries have caught up on him and he's done." I definitely don't buy that. But looking at goals, he is set for the lowest goals per game since his second year. You're right, though, It wouldn't be a huge drop off and he has been playing with lesser line-mates often this season so you could credit it to that. I do think, if the season was over today, it would be looked at as a down year for him. I hope he goes back to the way he looked in the first 10 games.

My thinking for using +/- is because -12 is a large enough number that I thought it to be significant. If one player contradicts the trending stats of the whole team dramatically (and doesn't play on the PK) then I do think it shows something. The only other regulars with a minus are Nyquist (-2) and Miller (-1). Thinking about it now, though, you could partly explain Franzen's -12 by the fact that he's been with lesser line-mates. Also, comparing his stats to the team's now does skew the picture since the team has been winning since he's been out - I'd have to look at the stats when he went down to be fair.

Edited by PavelValerievichDatsyuk

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He's scoring at .67 ppg despite a pretty big slump (as you point out). He's gone through those before. Nothing about his play this year led me to believe that he wouldn't end with right around 55 pts. Which is usual for him. I dont' see some big, qualitative difference in his play. He was doing what he does every year.

I agree, lots of people factor into games even when they don't score. Those guys are better than Franzen. And it's because of those guys that he's no longer necessary. But he is what he's always been. The only difference between then and now is that we no longer rely on him as much. But quite a lot of people here have said, or implied, that his performance is worse this year than in years past. I just don't see it. If Nyquist and Tatar (and Abby to a lesser extent) hadn't emerged into go-to guys, Franzen would have been glued to Zetterberg or Datsyuk's wing like he always is, and his PPG probably wouldn't even have dipped at all.

The thing is, those guys aren't better than Franzen. They work harder than Franzen. And honestly that, more than whatever his production is trending, is what irks me about his play and why I think he's bad for the team.

Can you imagine if Tatar had Mule's size? Because I don't think Tatar necessarily has a better shot or more skill than Franzen. Just greater will to get the puck and go the net.

I never really buy into the "for his cap hit" excuse for his effort (not that you were making it). For one, the Wings are starting to be on the losing end of that contract now. And second, I just think it's bad for team morale and culture when you have a guy with so much talent who's half-assing it out there. And he absolutely is half-assing it out there some nights.

Franzen has always been streaky, but you'd still notice him during games. Taking shots, creating scoring chances, being a jerk to play against. This season there's been so many games where he was completely invisible out there.

Anyway, I didn't mean this into another bash Franzen fest. It just struck me after the game last night how it hadn't even occurred to me that he was out of the lineup. He is not missed, and he should be.

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I did. Read my post back in October.

I just hope we don't get stuck against Boston in the first round. Don't like that matchup, even if they have struggled this year.

That is my biggest 'fear' right now. That Boston team is starting to heat up. And while I'd really love for us to meet the bruins again and DeKeyser to spear Lucic's nuts off and Smith to throw haymakers at Chara, that team when rolling is scary. They're way better than 8th in the East.

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Thing I've found about Franzen is that he played really well the first 10 games or so. He looked re-energised, was properly engaged for most of the game. And then he just got streaky again. Which is fine, it's what we've come to know and expect. But concussions mount up. I'm not saying he's dropped off like some are, but head injury after head injury sure makes a difference, and the last couple of times he's been levelled to which you would have thought most players would get up fine from, he's got up really slowly.

I agree with you though Kip, he's expendable not because his play has declined, but because he's been surpassed by others who work harder. If he retires early, the wings are subject to the cap recapture penalty right?

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The thing is, those guys aren't better than Franzen. They work harder than Franzen. And honestly that, more than whatever his production is trending, is what irks me about his play and why I think he's bad for the team.

Can you imagine if Tatar had Mule's size? Because I don't think Tatar necessarily has a better shot or more skill than Franzen. Just greater will to get the puck and go the net.

I never really buy into the "for his cap hit" excuse for his effort (not that you were making it). For one, the Wings are starting to be on the losing end of that contract now. And second, I just think it's bad for team morale and culture when you have a guy with so much talent who's half-assing it out there. And he absolutely is half-assing it out there some nights.

Franzen has always been streaky, but you'd still notice him during games. Taking shots, creating scoring chances, being a jerk to play against. This season there's been so many games where he was completely invisible out there.

Anyway, I didn't mean this into another bash Franzen fest. It just struck me after the game last night how it hadn't even occurred to me that he was out of the lineup. He is not missed, and he should be.

I'm not arguing any of that. Those young guys are better than Franzen because of a number of things. They are, perhaps, no more skilled than him. But that's not all that goes into a hockey player. They're skilled AND work hard, so they're better players. And he's unnecessary.

Again, I'm not defending the guy. Or even saying we should keep him. I'm saying his production hasn't noticeably dropped this year. There's a slight drop for sure, but I see no reason to attribute that to an overall decline rather than the yearly slumps he goes through like clockwork. Knowing what we know now, I'd even have been in favor of buying him out a year ago. But again, that's because of his terribly long contract and the new punishments that go with keeping those around. Not because he's changed much (or at all) as a player.

Finally, I agree with you about his work ethic being bad for the team. For a few years now I've believed this team lacked an identity. If seems like we're finally seeing a little bit of one emerging. Fast, tenacious, and often explosive offensively. He certainly doesn't fit in with that. But that's not a knock on his production, that's just a change on our organizational direction. Send him to a team like Boston or San Jose and he's flourish.

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I actually would like to see Mule back and make up a line of Weiss-Sheahan-Franzen as our third.... Whew

before the last game I would say that would be great. But Weiss-Sheahan-Glen like looked to have great chemistry. but what I know of babs.. nothing would surprise me.

Now I think of it where do you put mule when he comes back......

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A line doesn't gain chemistry after just one game, they were just getting all the bounces in that one. I'd be very surprised if they stick together any longer than tonight's game. Glendening should and will be centering the 4th line and Sheahan should and most likely will be centering the 2nd line.

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before the last game I would say that would be great. But Weiss-Sheahan-Glen like looked to have great chemistry. but what I know of babs.. nothing would surprise me.

Now I think of it where do you put mule when he comes back......

I just worry about the speed of that line. Weiss and Franzen aren't great forecheckers but the scoring depth should put us over the top... In theory. Having a fast guy on each line that first on the puck has been key for us all year

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I'm not sure if or when they will take Kindl off IR, but as of tonight, he is healthy and Ouellet is still in his place. I have a feeling Xavier gets sent down in the next little while, unless there is a trade... which I doubt...

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I'm not sure if or when they will take Kindl off IR, but as of tonight, he is healthy and Ouellet is still in his place. I have a feeling Xavier gets sent down in the next little while, unless there is a trade... which I doubt...

I hope not (about XO being sent back down). From what I've seen he's definitely earned his spot.

It's probably going to happen, but sending him down and putting Kindl in his spot is a downgrade in the defense.

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I hope not (about XO being sent back down). From what I've seen he's definitely earned his spot.

It's probably going to happen, but sending him down and putting Kindl in his spot is a downgrade in the defense.

Doesn't the roster limit lift after the trade deadline, and then the salary cap during the playoffs?

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