Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 18, 2015 I'm not gonna say werenski is a gonna be a bust cause nobody can tell the future ... I do know there's been a lot of dmen projected in the top 15 who never became anything which is why I'd prefer falling back and getting as many picks in the top 60 as possible A top pairing dmen would be amazing and yes much needed but if we got 4-5 good dmen who are 3-4's on most teams and we play a good team game we can still be a good team On a sidenote if Andersson doesn't come back any possible chance we trade him and can get a 5th to 7th round pick? Just tired of losing guys through waivers for nothing Dmen tend to come in later rounds. I was reading a story on BR from before the season. They had ranked the top 50 Dmen in the NHL heading into the season. Of those 50, only 20 were 1st round picks. 11 were second rounders, 4 were UDUFA's. As talked about many times here and elsewhere, for whatever the reasons Dmen take longer to develop. Most F will have breakout seasons by 23, but for Dmen it looks more like 26. Look at our last few 1st round picks: Howard-turned out, McCollum-not so much, Kindl-not so much, Smith-not so much. Using Smith as an example, he was drafted 8 years ago. he wasn't a reach and most expected him to be good. he still hasn't reached his full potential yet. In this day and age where you only have 3 years before waivers there does seem to be increased risk in drafting a Dman. Per Smiths' point about needing D, yes we do. Every team does. But we need Dmen that are ready now. we also have 4 top D prospects that need to be in detroit by next septemeber or we run the risk of losing them. With Kronwall and ericsson signed long term, Dekeyser soon to be signed long term, and Smith maybe signed long term, there isn't room for a another Dman right now. Which is why I keep talking about taking a F. We still have holes in or top 14. Not much behind them in terms of numbers either. IMHO we take a F now, maybe next year, and then in 2017 look for a Dman in the first. By then we have contracts ending within the 3 year window. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 19, 2015 We have a much more solid future forward core than we do defense core. I don't know how you don't see that. Here's how I see our players potentially fitting in the next 3-5 years... 1st/2nd line center - Larkin, Athanasiou 2nd/3rd line center - Sheahan, Nosek, Holmstrom 3rd/4th line center - Turgeon, Glendening 1st/2nd line winger - Mantha, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco 2nd/3rd line winger - Zetterberg, Pulkkinen, Abdelkader, Helm, Bertuzzi 3rd/4th line winger - Nastasiuk, Ferraro, Callahan, Tvrdon 1st/2nd pair defense - DeKeyser 2nd/3rd pair defense - Kronwall, Ericsson, Smith, Sproul, Ouellet, Jensen, Marchenko I know this is very debatable and no one is going to agree with this 100%, some will think it's pretty accurate and I'm sure others will probably think it's way off base... Regardless, the way I see it is we have a ton of potential top line guys up front and we only have one true number one guy on the back end. Sure, Sproul or Ouellet or whoever could surprise and be that number 2 to pair with DeKeyser, but as it stands right now, I don't see it happening... I realize that any rankings site can be very subjective and HockeysFuture is no different, but do you think it's any coincidence that we have 3 forwards in the top 30 (5, 18, 26) and no defenseman in the top 50? We need a true number 1/2 defenseman for the future, and I fully expect Holland to address that in this years draft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 19, 2015 http://thehockeywriters.com/should-nhl-teams-start-being-worried-about-the-ncaa-factor/ Mike reilly isn't signing with Columbus and will be a ufa , maybe we can convince him to sign with us Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 19, 2015 That would be a great signing, but I just don't see it happening... My bet is him signing with his hometown Wild... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 Smith it is funny you mention just about every F that the RW's have under control but didn't do it on the D. Where is McNulty, Wheaton, DeHaas, etc.... But lets look at this a bit more closely. Right now today, 3 of the "Top 4" Dmen spots are filled by guys that are here long term. Dekeyser, Kronwall, and Ericsson are not going anywhere, right or wrong. That is 75% of our top 4 for the next 5 seasons. Rumors have been floating and most of us fans have been begging for Kenny to go out and get a top pair Dman. If he does, then the top 4 is full. Anyone we draft this year in the 1st round would hit waivers before we have a top 4 opening, baring injury of course. This of course does not include our 4 young D prospects that are or nearly ready. We have spent a lot of draft picks on Dmen the last few years. They are now about ready to play. At forward we are not set. The top 6 needs to be rebuilt. Yes we have some nice players on the team. But there are only 2 in the system under 34 that anyone could consider to be potential game breakers/future super stars: Larkin and Mantha. The rest are guys that are the secondary players on a line. Guys that do one or 2 things really well, but are not all around studs that we need. Tatar and Pulk are shooters. Very good shooters, but neither is a great defender, neither has great speed, neither is a great play maker etc..... Both need others to set them up and open up the ice. Now that is not a slam on anyone, just how I see the guys we have in the system. yes we have numbers, but top flight guys are few and far between. In a perfect world we have 5 realistic top 6 type forwards: larkin a 2c, mantha a 1 or 2 LW, Nyquist is a 2LW, tatar is a 2 LW or RW, and Pulk is a 2 RW. Everyone else to date projects as a 3/4 line guy. Some are career AHLers or 13/14 forwards at best. Now this last point is true for all of our prospects. They are just prospects. At some point they have to go from prospect to player. Until a guy gets to the NHL and produces, we have nothing. I would love to see us have the "problem" of to many players at the same position. Wouldn't that be fun!?!? but we don't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 I didn't name close to every forward. I only named the players that I believe will still be here in 3-5 years, or have a legitimate shot at making the Wings some day, on both forward and defense... Of the current forwards, I left out Datsyuk, although I don't think it's out of the question for him to play beyond his current contract, into his 40's. I left out Franzen, because I believe his career should be done. I left out Weiss, Miller and Andersson simply because I feel they're all very replaceable within the organization. I also left out Cleary and Cole for obvious reasons, they should / most likely will retire... Now on to the prospects / players we still hold rights to that I left out... Aubry, Hudon, Frk, McKee, Bodin, Pope, Melen, Ehn, Vahatalo, Kadeykin, Miele, Porter and Campbell. I don't believe any of those guys have a real shot at making the Wings roster at any point, although I wouldn't doubt but at least one surprises (Ehn? Kadeykin?), just like I wouldn't doubt at least one on my previous list disappoints (Tvrdon? Turgeon?)... On the defense side I left out Quincey, Kindl and Zidlicky because I don't believe any of them will still be here in 3-5 years. Out of the prospects / players we still hold rights to, I left out Almqvist, Marshall, Nedomlel, De Haas, Wheaton, McNulty, Lashoff, Hicketts. Again, none of which I believe have a real shot at making the Wings roster at any point, although I wouldn't doubt at least one surprises (De Haas? McNulty?), just like I wouldn't doubt at least one on my previous list disappoints (Jensen?)... So is Ericsson a top 4 defensemen or not? Don't get me wrong, I believe he is a decent 2nd pairing guy, but I would bet most of this board think he's better suited on the 3rd pair. If an upgrade is available we should definitely take it, be it trade, free agency or draft. Rumors have also been "floating around" that we need a big bodied top 6 forward. So we are just as likely to grab a forward as we are a defenseman in free agency, are we not?... So if we sign a forward in free agency we shouldn't draft a forward because he too will hit waivers before we have a top 6 opening because we will have Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Sheahan, Abdelkader, Nyquist, Tatar, and our free agent signing all fighting to remain in the top 6... Do you see how ridiculous this is?... "We have spent a lot of draft picks on defensemen the last few years"...? By few, I assume you mean 3 years? Since 2012 (3 years ago) we've had 21 draft picks, 16 of which have been forwards, 3 have been defensemen, and 2 have been goaltenders... So no, we haven't spent "a lot" of draft picks on defensemen at all, hence our need to draft D... I agree that our top 6 needs to be rebuilt, and that's exactly what we've been working on for the past couple years and will continue to work on for another couple. But these top 6 replacements are already in the system, some of them just aren't quite ready yet. We don't have any (maybe 1 if we're lucky) top pairing defensemen in the system right now... Ouellet, Sproul, Jensen and Marchenko all project to be bottom 4 defensemen. So we only have 2 forwards that could be considered potential game breakers / future super stars? Really? So we only have 1 on defense then right? And I think it's even a stretch to say that about DeKeyser to be honest. He's a great two-way defenseman with top pair potential, but future super star? Not sure about that one... So you don't believe Athanasiou is a future top 6 player? Have you seen this kid play? Bottom line is we have a much brighter future up front than we do on the back end. We've been drafting forwards and it is paying off, now we need to concentrate heavy on drafting defense, and I'm sure we will. Defense Wins Championships! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 Smith, I do enjoy a good debate, so please keep it up! You have changed your tune over the past couple of months. If you look at to when I started this thread there are several posts by you about how Sproul was/is a future top 4 Dman. At that time I mentioned that no we have 3 guys that could be top 4 Dmen: Marchenko, Oullett, and Sproul. I also pointed out that Oullett and marchenko were already ahead of Sproul on the depth chart and playing in the NHL, etc.... If you think back to when we were in the playoffs-yes it was a long time ago now...... The first couple of games the RW's had Marchenko in for Smith. What pair was he on? The second with Dekeyser. Now some disagree with me on this, but I see Dekeyser as our best Dman now and have since last year. If he is our best and Marchenko was paired with him, that could be our top pair soon. My point is, we have high end talent on the BL that is very close. More than we have spots for. Now as stated before, if we go D in the first I am ok with it. That is a good spot to be in again. We don't have to draft a specific postion anymore. First time in several that was true. I will leave you with this. Value. In the 1st round the Dmen I like best at 19 is Meloche. He would be a very good pick at that spot. Good size, good mobility, nasty when he has to be, good passer and shooter. Now go compare his scouting report with Spencer, who is a mid second round pick. They are same player. Both about 6-2/200, both RHed D, both good skaters, passer, and shooters, and both are known to be tough as needed. If we can trade down and get a second with a late round 1st, and then draft Greenway then Spencer we would be much better off than taking just Meloche or just Greenway. We are also better off going F then D (if we pick up a new second) than going D then F. The value is better IMHO. If we are comparing just Greenway vs meloche, I still believe we are better with Greenway. The floor between these guys is very close, maybe Meloche is slightly better in that regard, but I still believe Greenway has the much higher ceiling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 I haven't changed my tune on anything. I don't know if you realize this but your second pair can be considered both top 4 our bottom 4. Me saying that all of these guys are bottom 4, only indicated that they are not top 2. So yes, I do believe that Sproul still has potential to be a 2nd pairing defenseman. I also think Ouellet and Jensen have potential to be a 2nd pairing defensemen. But I don't believe Marchenko will ever be anything more than a 3rd pairing defenseman, despite being further ahead in his development. He is further ahead right now for several reasons, he is older (23), he has been playing pro hockey (KHL, AHL, NHL) for the past 6 years, whereas the others have all only played 2, and his strongest attribute is his defensive game, which is easier to translate to the NHL. Which is also a reason Sproul is so much further from the NHL and has found himself scratched in the Griffins playoff run this year, he is purely an offensive defenseman and that is hard enough to translate from junior to the American League, let alone to the NHL. You can't seriously think that just because Marchenko was paired with DeKeyser for a game or two, and that DeKeyser is our future top pairing defenseman that that makes Marchenko a top pairing defenseman... I love how you talk about all these kids like you've been watching them all for years. I don't think a pro scout would be talking about these kids potential and future with as much confidence as you seem to have. We all know what we have gathered from scouting reports and the rare highlights online. With that, we know very little about any of them, and I'm willing to bet you haven't seen many (if any at all) of these kids play an actual game, outside of the top 5 picks... I'd be okay with trading back, I'd also love to trade up, and I'd be fine with keeping our pick at 19, but wherever we pick, we should be looking very close at every defenseman available. This will without question be a defense heavy draft for us. I think if we keep all of our picks (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) we should take 4 defensemen and 2 forwards. I agree that Meloche and Spencer (if we trade back) would be good picks, and I also wouldn't mind Roy. Trade up and get Werenski and that could definitely be your future top pairing... DeKeyser - Werenski. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 Never said I have seen any of these guys. I read and watch what is out there. The guys we have in GR I see far more often. Just because a guy is a defensive Dman does not make him a top 1 or 2 guy. Is Seabrook a top pair guy? yes. He is the one that makes Keith good. So if Marchenko ends up as a defensive Dman on a top pair, that isn't a problem. Defense wins championships. Our defense needs to be better overall. As for guys playing in pro leagues in europe, so? Means nothing. Those leagues and games don't translate to the NA game. year after year we see guys that were good over there fail here. Jarnkrok, Janmark, Brunner, Ritola, mursak, etc etc etc. Same with guys coming out of juniors/college. Really doesn't say much. Once we see them play in the AHL and then the NHL now we have a good idea of what they can do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted May 20, 2015 I didn't say anything about a defensive defenseman not being capable of being a top pairing guy, hell that's the only reason Ericsson is currently in that spot. But what I am saying is that I don't see Marchenko ever becoming anything more than a 3rd pairing defenseman. Does that mean he will never play above the third pair? No. That means skill wise, he is not a 2nd and definitely not a top pairing defenseman at the NHL level. You're seriously comparing Marchenko, a 205th overall pick, that has a whopping 14 games of NHL experience to Seabrook, a 14th overall pick, that has played in over 750 NHL games... They are in no way similar. Seabrook is one of the best two-way defenders in the game, Marchenko is our 3rd or 4th ranked defensive prospect in our system... "Defense wins championships. Our defense needs to be better overall"... But we shouldn't be drafting a defenseman in the first round? We need to draft BIG forwards... It absolutely does mean something to have played in Europe for 4 years prior to coming over to North America. It means that he has been playing pro hockey against grown men since he was 17 years old. Whether that's in North America or Europe is irrelevant, and like it or not, the KHL is a much better league than any junior league in North America. Sure, it's a completely different style of game but the skill is absolutely there, and it's not easy to defend over there as a teenager playing against men. You just named 5 players, and 2 (Jarnkrok & Janmark) of the 5 may still have a shot as regular NHLers. Anyway, I'm done with this. I think we need to concentrate on defense, you disagree. Moving on... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 28, 2015 I decided to try a mock draft for the fun of it ... Decided to trade down and ended up trading 3 times and ending up with 3 2nd rounders and 2 3rds ... These were the results Nicolas meloche - d Travis dermott - d Jens looke - f Nikita korostelev - f Brendan guhle - d Just curious if the wings drafted those guys would people be happy ? Thought about taking 5 d's but I thought those 2 forwards had potential and I got my first target meloche and got extra picks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MasterPavel 115 Report post Posted May 28, 2015 I decided to try a mock draft for the fun of it ... Decided to trade down and ended up trading 3 times and ending up with 3 2nd rounders and 2 3rds ... These were the results Nicolas meloche - d Travis dermott - d Jens looke - f Nikita korostelev - f Brendan guhle - d Just curious if the wings drafted those guys would people be happy ? Thought about taking 5 d's but I thought those 2 forwards had potential and I got my first target meloche and got extra picks I love the idea, but unfortunately I doubt this would be possible. I still like the idea of trading down, or trading an asset for an additional pick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted May 29, 2015 I'm sure we'll end up trading down at least once since we don't have a 2nd rounder , I just ended up trading down more than expected cause I had quite a few players I liked who I thought had potential Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kipwinger 8,524 Report post Posted June 5, 2015 (edited) Unless Zboril falls to 19th, I suspect Detroit trades back in an effort to get a second round pick. Edit: Also, Bob McKenzie ranks his top 75 prospects (with the help of Craig Button). http://www.tsn.ca/mcdavid-tops-mckenzie-s-final-draft-ranking-1.300634 Edited June 5, 2015 by kipwinger Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 5, 2015 I still think we should trade up, rather than trading back. We have a ton of depth at all positions, what we lack is elite talent. We're obviously not getting anywhere near the top 5, and likely not even within the top 10. However, if Zach Werenski is still available at 12, I would give Nill a call and see if he wants to make a trade. I would offer up a package of something like our 2015 1st round pick (19th overall), 2016 2nd round pick, Xavier Ouellet for their 2015 1st round pick (12th overall). I would then select Werenski in the 1st round and Matthew Spencer in the 2nd round. 1 martinezsvsu reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richdg 267 Report post Posted June 5, 2015 I still think we should trade up, rather than trading back. We have a ton of depth at all positions, what we lack is elite talent. We're obviously not getting anywhere near the top 5, and likely not even within the top 10. However, if Zach Werenski is still available at 12, I would give Nill a call and see if he wants to make a trade. I would offer up a package of something like our 2015 1st round pick (19th overall), 2016 2nd round pick, Xavier Ouellet for their 2015 1st round pick (12th overall). I would then select Werenski in the 1st round and Matthew Spencer in the 2nd round. no second round pick this year..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted June 5, 2015 Right you are. I was thinking we had our 2nd and were without our 3rd this year, but that's next year... I'd still like to move up if possible, but I do agree with most, we will likely trade down to grab a later 1st and a 2nd or two 2nd's... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nevermind 363 Report post Posted June 6, 2015 (edited) If Zboril is still available, I'm not sure that I can handle another left-handed Czech defensemen named Jakub picked 19th overall and not panning out. Exactly 10 years apart too. Edited June 6, 2015 by Nevermind 1 krsmith17 reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PumpkinEscobar 136 Report post Posted June 6, 2015 Colin White or Paul Bittner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 7, 2015 Read coyotes are are taking offers for the 3rd overall pick ... Hypothetically what would it take? I'm sure they'd want larkin so there's 0 chance we'd ever end up getting the pick 19th pick ... Nyquist ... Ouellet ...pulkkinen? Too much?not enough? Just thinking it be nice to draft a stud dmen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Helmethead 235 Report post Posted June 7, 2015 They'd likely want Larkin to start with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted June 7, 2015 (edited) http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/future-sabres-pick-jack-eichel-wont-apologize-for-possessing-confidence/ good god Eichel could learn a thing or two from McDavid when it comes down to being humble and not an arrogant young upcoming star. I think Eichel will be a superstar but I really hope he will get a few advises in terms of behaviour. Don't want to see more cocky and entitled players entering the NHL when there are already enough of them, still less than in other league but even 1 is 1 to many. Edited June 7, 2015 by frankgrimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/future-sabres-pick-jack-eichel-wont-apologize-for-possessing-confidence/ good god Eichel could learn a thing or two from McDavid when it comes down to being humble and not an arrogant young upcoming star. I think Eichel will be a superstar but I really hope he will get a few advises in terms of behaviour. Don't want to see more cocky and entitled players entering the NHL when there are already enough of them, still less than in other league but even 1 is 1 to many. Arrogant? Blow things out of proportion much Frank? From that article: “I’m pretty confident in my own abilities,” Eichel told a throng of reporters and cameras Friday at the NHL Scouting Combine inside HarborCenter. “I know everyone’s making a big deal.” Eichel never intended to compare himself to McDavid, who will be picked first by the Edmonton Oilers. “It’s more of just confidence in my own self,” Eichel said. Seems pretty down to earth to me, nothing wrong with confidence in oneself. Edited June 8, 2015 by number9 1 nyqvististhefuture reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nyqvististhefuture 1,002 Report post Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) Plus eichel probably felt like s*** that buffalo was dissapointed they lost the lottery and cried about it so it's his way of saying don't worry about mcdavid I'm better and I'm gonna prove it to you What's he suppose to do? Sulk and say he's second best? For all we know mcdavid could be the next daigle or have a good but not better career than eichel .. 1st overall picks haven't all been gems and there Will be future ones that don't pan out I'm sure Do I think mcdavid will be good? Yes but I don't know for sure that he's gonna be better than eichel ... Time will tell Edited June 8, 2015 by nyqvististhefuture Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankgrimes 1,836 Report post Posted June 8, 2015 (edited) I don't have a problem with him being confident I mean heck he would be the 1 in almost every other draft with the exception of the Crosby and maybe Stamkos one. The problem is Eichel said he will be better than McDavid and he believes he is the best - not one of - but the best player in the draft and that's cocky..he had to the chance to redeem himself a bit by saying "I let emotions get the better of me..So sorry I know this draft is full of great players and hopefully I can become one of them for Buffalo in the future...I will as hard as I can to achieve that goal and if that draws comparisons McDavid I would be very honored " It's a much nicer tone instead of saying flat out that he is the best. For the record I think McDavid and Eichel will be super super stars but I don't think anyone can protect who the better player will be. Maybe it was just a bad choice of words for Eichel he'll learn hopefully. Edited June 8, 2015 by frankgrimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
